Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

Retr0gamer · 03-12-2009 01:35AM

Ropedrink, I'm getting worried that you are dragging this discussion into the scary realms of fan fiction.

Dreddybajs · 03-12-2009 03:19AM

i don't give a crap about any of that I just want the gameplay to be worked on

K.O.Kiki · 03-12-2009 04:05AM

Ropey has a point. This lack of attention to detail not only spoils the overall presentation, but sticks in my mind as making the WHOLE of SF4 feel a little "unfinished".

Same for the button config - it's not part of gameplay, but presentation, and it looks/feels rushed.

Or how certain characters have lots of Ultra setups. Or how some motions are horrid to do.
These small things matter.

chopperbyrne · 03-12-2009 01:19PM

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Or how some motions are horrid to do.

What motions are these?

Sagat06 · 03-12-2009 02:01PM

chopperbyrne wrote: »

What motions are these?

Comboing into Guiles super or Ultra are sucky hard for me!

Doctor DooM · 03-12-2009 02:39PM

Sagat06 wrote: »

Comboing into Guiles super or Ultra are sucky hard for me!

They're easy in the sense that anyone can do the motions with a little practice.

The moves themselves however make them an implausable tactic in the middle of a fight.

chopperbyrne · 03-12-2009 04:12PM

The only truly difficult motion is a 720, which only needs to be a 540 anyway as far as I know.

K.O.Kiki · 03-12-2009 06:30PM

But why didn't they just use HD Remix as a base for moves?

Cammy's Hooligan throw, 'Gief's standing 720 shortcut, Guile's NICE'N'EASY Super motion -- all gone, replaced by SF2 bollox!
And if Fei's Rekkas are still QCFx3, I'll curse Capcom. CURSE THEM TO HECK!

Doctor DooM · 03-12-2009 06:37PM

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

But why didn't they just use HD Remix as a base for moves?

Cammy's Hooligan throw, 'Gief's standing 720 shortcut, Guile's NICE'N'EASY Super motion -- all gone, replaced by SF2 bollox!
And if Fei's Rekkas are still QCFx3, I'll curse Capcom. CURSE THEM TO HECK!

Because they wanted people like me playing. I'm like one of those Koreans who gets mysty eyed over Championship edition. There's still no better SF I play than that.

And there were bajillions of people who left after hper fighting, and thats exactly who Capcom wanted- and got- back.

I don't think they'll stay around for Super- they've had their nostalgia blast- but I will

EDIT- once again, Guile's sultra problems are nothing to do with the motion. you learn it in days. It's the bloody startup and hit boxes.

Retr0gamer · 03-12-2009 06:47PM

Aren't the differences between SSF2 HDRemix and SF4 because Capcom has beef with David Sirlin and are too stubborn to take on board his improvements?

Doctor DooM · 03-12-2009 06:56PM

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Aren't the differences between SSF2 HDRemix and SF4 because Capcom has beef with David Sirlin and are too stubborn to take on board his improvements?

Dunno. Do you not think from the marketing et al of 4 though it's pretty obvious who they were trying to capture?

Retr0gamer · 03-12-2009 07:02PM

I don't think the marketing of street fighter 4 was aimed at the hardcore audience or the old school hardcore audience who skipped SF3. I think it was more aimed at recapturing the players that played SF2 kind of casually and wanted to experience some of that magic. It really did bring them all back into the fold.

Anyway I don't believe that standard moves should be difficult to pull off. A character like Ryu has very easy moves to pull off and any proficient player shouldn't have problems pulling them off. They are toolsa Ryu player can pull out of the bag at any time without much skill. However fei longs flying kick and cammys hooligan throw have much more difficult moves to pull off and it's kind of not fair since it takes a lot more learning. SF4 should be accessible but with depth for for people that want to take it further which is why I think they should change the motions to the easy to execute HDRemix motions.

bush · 03-12-2009 07:56PM

How do you do the rekka in hdr?

Retr0gamer · 03-12-2009 08:00PM

QCF punch

Not sure what Kiki is on about either.

chopperbyrne · 03-12-2009 08:38PM

Retr0gamer wrote: »

QCF punch Not sure what Kiki is on about either.

I reckon he thinks it should be like Abels Rekka which is just one QCF+P followed by holding F and then tapping either P or K.

Seths Triple SRK is probably harder than a full set of Rekkas from Fei.

Owwmykneecap · 03-12-2009 08:38PM

Retr0gamer wrote: »

Aren't the differences between SSF2 HDRemix and SF4 because Capcom has beef with David Sirlin and are too stubborn to take on board his improvements?

pff most of that crap isn't an improvement.

Zangief losing the 720 and getting a guilty gear move? no thanks.

Dreddybajs · 03-12-2009 09:26PM

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Because they wanted people like me playing. I'm like one of those Koreans who gets mysty eyed over Championship edition. There's still no better SF I play than that.

And there were bajillions of people who left after hper fighting, and thats exactly who Capcom wanted- and got- back.

I don't think they'll stay around for Super- they've had their nostalgia blast- but I will

EDIT- once again, Guile's sultra problems are nothing to do with the motion. you learn it in days. It's the bloody startup and hit boxes.

You could use the old motions in HD remix too, they just added alternate easier ones.

Doctor DooM · 03-12-2009 11:43PM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

You could use the old motions in HD remix too, they just added alternate easier ones.

the changed some stuff though.

Will never forget the first time I did a fierce flash kick

DarkTalant · 04-12-2009 06:16PM

No GGPO for SSF4

http://www.hadoken.net/?p=987

Dreddybajs · 04-12-2009 06:33PM

I don't think anyone really expected there to be did they?

Yreval · 04-12-2009 10:40PM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I don't think anyone really expected there to be did they?

I think that when Final Fight Double Impact (with GGPO) was announced there were rumblings that SSF4 might have it too.

Dreddybajs · 04-12-2009 10:59PM

Yeah, that was Capcom USA too though right? Plus it's a lot easier to put GGPO on an old game than se it for a new one...

Yreval · 04-12-2009 11:46PM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

Yeah, that was Capcom USA too though right? Plus it's a lot easier to put GGPO on an old game than se it for a new one...

Yeah, I believe this is a Capcom USA effort. As for your second point - Ponder (creator of GGPO) claims that it isn't significantly more difficult to implement it in a game like SSF4 than in FF.

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7597363&postcount=75

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showpost.php?p=7597471&postcount=80

Those two posts tell you just about everything you need to know about GGPO.

JohnMc1 · 05-12-2009 02:15AM

DarkTalant wrote: »

No GGPO for SSF4
http://www.hadoken.net/?p=987

What exactly is GGPO?

chopperbyrne · 05-12-2009 02:22AM

JohnMc1 wrote: »

What exactly is GGPO?

GGPO is netcode that was specifically designed with fighters in mind. It treats inputs as the most important thing and so very rarely features input lag, which is why you can have relatively high pings and still have virtually lag free games against someone.

SF IV on the other hand regularly gets input lag while the netcode tries to keep everything under the sun in sync except inputs.

I'm sure there are others who could explain it better than that though.

JohnMc1 · 05-12-2009 11:56AM

chopperbyrne wrote: »

GGPO is netcode that was specifically designed with fighters in mind. It treats inputs as the most important thing and so very rarely features input lag, which is why you can have relatively high pings and still have virtually lag free games against someone.

SF IV on the other hand regularly gets input lag while the netcode tries to keep everything under the sun in sync except inputs.

I'm sure there are others who could explain it better than that though.

Thanks for the explanation chopperbyrne.

K.O.Kiki · 05-12-2009 08:31PM

Yreval's first link has the full explanation, too.

Ponder wrote:

As you point you, you can't get rid of the lag. Suppose it takes 3 frames to send a packet from one player to the next. That will cause 3 frames of lag somewhere. There's nothing you can do to get rid of it. The traditional way to handle this is to tack the 3 frames of lag onto the beginning of every move . So when you press the fierce button, the game doesn't actually see the button press for 3 frames. So if fierce normally has 5 frames on startup offline, it behaves as if it has 8 frames of startup online. That's not exactly true, but it's a close enough approximation for the purposes of this discussion.

What affect does that have on gameplay? It's huge. It means all the timing you've learned offline no longer applies. All your well-timed moves need to be executed 3 frames earlier than you're used to. Meaty DP's become very difficult, hit-confirms become impossible, footsies are all but eliminated from the game, etc. This results in what people call "lag-tactics": tactics that take advantage of the fact that everything you do will be lagged.

To make matters worse, the frame delay is usually determined by the quality of the connection. So when you play someone in the same state it may only lag your moves by 3 frames, but when you play cross-country the lag may be 6 or more frames. So not only are your moves lagged, they're lagged by a different amount every game. All this combined makes playing even mid-level play online without GGPO a non-starter under all but the best of conditions. That's why many people including myself will only play 4-bar matches in SFIV online.

GGPO takes a different approach. Instead of adding extra frames of lag onto the beginning of your moves, it removes them from the beginning of your opponents. What does this mean? It means everytime you press a button it happens right away, no matter how bad the connection is. Your moves have absolutely no lag at all. Your well timed moves come out just like offline, meaty DPs are just the same, hit-confirm combos are just the same, etc. The downside is that you're not notified of your opponents actions until a few frames after they happen. So if your opponent jumps or attacks, you will not see the first few frames of the jump or attack animation. That's kind of a bummer, but the tradeoff is well worth it. It means things like blocking your opponents jabs on reaction is literally impossible online, but no one even tries to do that offline. Meanwhile, things you do offline all the time like meaty attack, hit-confirms, anti-air attacks, etc, all behave just like they do offline. That makes mid-level or even high-level play possible. Tournament-level play? Some people say yes, some people say no. Regardless, it's a huge improvement.

Zapp Brannigan · 07-12-2009 03:06PM

According to an interview at the Norcal regionals with Seth, DeeJay's EX dread kicks no longer crumple.

It did seem a bit OP at the time, wonder how DeeJay will fare now and if they'll give him another way to land his ultra.

FoamyMushroom · 07-12-2009 03:16PM

Well maybe people agreed that the the EX Dreadkick is WAY to simple as a ultra setup.. and we all know it is... Seems its more simpler, than Goukens throw to ultra...
(Which baffles me how come Goukens back throw doesn't take damage, even though he throws ya outside of the screen...?)....Riiiight...

Doctor DooM · 07-12-2009 03:16PM

Zapp Brannigan wrote: »

According to an interview at the Norcal regionals with Seth, DeeJay's EX dread kicks no longer crumple.

It did seem a bit OP at the time, wonder how DeeJay will fare now and if they'll give him another way to land his ultra.

I seriously doubt with the possible exception of a few notables Capcom will be leaving any character without 1 or 2 ultra set ups. From what I've been reading, it does seem to be the singular biggest gripe floating round.

Then again, stranger things have happened.

Ultra Street Fighter 4 Discussion Thread

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