Should students have the right to object to material taught in seconday school? NSFW

The_Minister

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/gulf-high-school-ib-student-parents-object-to-book/1036488
Basically a student is objecting to the sex scenes in the book that she is reading as part of the class.


Below is a spoilered ecerpt from the New York Times (NSFW!)

--
"Then let me help you," she said. "I'm in bed. I just got out of the shower, and I'm not wearing a thing."

Oh, great. Telephone sex.

"Or would you prefer me with something on? Something lacy. Or stockings. Would that work better for you?"

"I don't give a damn. Do what you like," I said. "Put something on if you want to. Stay naked if you want to. Sorry, but I'm not interested in telephone games like this. I've got a lot of things I have to-"

"Ten minutes," she said. "Ten minutes won't kill you. It won't put a hole in your life. Just answer my question. Do you want me naked or with something on? I've got all kinds of things I could put on. Black lace panties . . ."

"Naked is fine."

"Well, good. You want me naked."

"Yes. Naked. Good."

Four minutes.

"My pubic hair is still wet," she said. "I didn't dry myself very well. Oh, I'm so wet! Warm and moist. And soft. Wonderfully soft and black. Touch me."

"Look, I'm sorry, but-"

"And down below too. All the way down. It's so warm down there, like butter cream. So warm. Mmm. And my legs. What position do you think my legs are in? My right knee is up, and my left leg is open just enough. Say, ten-oh-five on the clock."

I could tell from her voice that she was not faking it. She really did have her legs open to ten-oh-five, her sex warm and moist.

"Touch the lips," she said. "Slooowly. Now open them. That's it. Slowly, slowly. Let your fingers caress them. Oh so slowly. Now, with your other hand, touch my left breast. Play with it. Caress it. Upward. And give the nipple a little squeeze. Do it again. And again. And again. Until I'm just about to come."
--

This girl is sixteen, and she's learning this is school.:eek:

I'd be embarassed to read that on the bus.

The general reaction in the US is that she is being snotty and prudish, but tbh, a sixteen year old technically can't see a dirty movie, I'm not sure why they should have to read that.

wudangclan

fap fap fap

Hrududu

To be honest she sounds very immature.

DevilsBreath

They should have that book in religion class in Ireland.

Nice good looking 21 year old female sub teacher reading that to a class of boys lol.

DevilsBreath

Hrududu wrote: »

To be honest she sounds very immature.

How is she ment to write a paper on that.
Well ya seen in P4 he put his finger really deep and she well eh came

AnonoBoy

Ah.....The Wind Up Bird Chronicles!

I knew I knew that telephone sex from somewhere.

me-skywalker

your a liberal? = of course your gonna react like this.

Max Power1

Sex Ed for the 21st century IMO

The_Minister

me-skywalker wrote: »

your a liberal? = of course your gonna react like this.

I still believe in having age restrictions on films.

I don't think a 12 year old should be able to see The Texas Chainsaw Massacre without parental approval (but once you are 18 then anything but snuff is pretty much ok).

Similarly I think people can object to their children being made to read sex scenes in school. A little bit of sex is grand, but reading that passage, if the whole book is like that then it is inappropriate for it to be a compulsory part of the school cirriculum.

AnonoBoy

The_Minister wrote: »

I still believe in having age restrictions on films.

I don't think a 12 year old should be able to see The Texas Chainsaw Massacre without parental approval (but once you are 18 then anything but snuff is pretty much ok).

Similarly I think people can object to their children being made to read sex scenes in school. A little bit of sex is grand, but reading that passage, if the whole book is like that then it is inappropriate for it to be a compulsory part of the school cirriculum.

It's not constant sex throughout but there are some fairly explicit (and weird) bits in it as far as I remember.

Surely they could give her an alternative.

Snakeblood

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/gulf-high-school-ib-student-parents-object-to-book/1036488
Basically a student is objecting to the sex scenes in the book that she is reading as part of the class.


Below is a spoilered ecerpt from the New York Times (NSFW!)




This girl is sixteen, and she's learning this is school.:eek:

I'd be embarassed to read that on the bus.

The general reaction in the US is that she is being snotty and prudish, but tbh, a sixteen year old technically can't see a dirty movie, I'm not sure why they should have to read that.

I wouldn't have a problem with someone 16 reading it. I'd rather they were learning in a safe environment about sex and how it doesn't have to be dirty\embarassing. It's better than them getting fingered by someone in the back of a micra.

It might also be a good book.

The_Minister

AnonoBoy wrote: »

It's not constant sex throughout but there are some fairly explicit (and weird) bits in it as far as I remember.

Surely they could give her an alternative.

She asked for an alternative but was refused AFAIK.

The_Minister

Snakeblood wrote: »

I wouldn't have a problem with someone 16 reading it. I'd rather they were learning in a safe environment about sex and how it doesn't have to be dirty\embarassing. It's better than them getting fingered by someone in the back of a micra.

It might also be a good book.

English class is not sex education class.

I firmly believe that we need detailed, practical, sex education, but I think it has to be acknowledged that books chosen for study in Leaving Cert should be appropriate for the audience they are aimed at.

It's not as if we are short of good, insightful books.

kaimera

thread fails for no pic of said girl with said book.

Snakeblood

The_Minister wrote: »

English class is not sex education class.

I firmly believe that we need detailed, practical, sex education, but I think it has to be acknowledged that books chosen for study in Leaving Cert should be appropriate for the audience they are aimed at.

It's not as if we are short of good, insightful books.

No, it's not sex education class, but by 16 people should really have learned about sex, and it's a part of life that can be productively dealt with in literature.

I don't really see how it containing sex disqualifies it from being appropriate for study by 16 year olds.

Edit: I'll grant you that if the whole book is sex, then that would be an issue, but it's not.

The Big Red Button

I know most sixteen-year-olds would be emotionally capable of studying a book like this, but the fact is not all of them are. I think that if it makes a student uncomfortable, she should definitely be offered an alternative.

I'm just thinking of an English teacher I had in secondary school. He was creepy, to say the least, and tried to be a little bit too friendly with the students. Can you imagine a teacher like that teaching a class of female students a book like that ... making them read it aloud, give their opinions on it, etc? I can see how in a situation like that, this sort of book would be totally inappropriate.

GLaDOS

Normally in these sort of cases I'd say if you don't like it don't read it, but she is in effect being forced to (otherwise her education suffers).

Personally I had read worse when I was 16 but it's understandable if she feels uncomfortable. If it was the parents objecting I'd think it was an overreaction, but it is the student. Why should they make her education more awkward just becasue we feel she should learn about it anyway. English class is not the place to learn about sex.

phasers

That book is tame tbh, in my school we watched Old School in religion class in 3rd year

Hrududu

She asked for an alternative but was refused AFAIK.

I was reading about this yesterday and I read that in the end they caved and allowed her to study a different book.

This is an IB course which is aimed at the more gifted student. As such the material they read is on a par with what they would read in the first year or so of college. At 16 that book wouldn't have left me with the reaction she had, which was something like "Ew gross". I wouldn't have liked to have discussed those passages in detail with a teacher. But it is on the course. Back when I did the LC if I had decided that there was too much gore in King Lear it wouldnt have made any difference. It was on the course and that was that.

Now the rest of the girl's class will be discussing the book and she won't get anything out of it.

Snakeblood

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Normally in these sort of cases I'd say if you don't like it don't read it, but she is in effect being forced to (otherwise her education suffers).

Personally I had read worse when I was 16 but it's understandable if she feels uncomfortable. If it was the parents objecting I'd think it was an overreaction, but it is the student. Why should they make her education more awkward just becasue we feel she should learn about it anyway. English class is not the place to learn about sex.

I can see that point of view, but I'm naturally antagonistic about people using beliefs to stop them learning. They're going to come into contact with thoughts and ideas they find offensive, and this seems like a pretty tame way to get their feet wet.

Pyr0

To be honest, I'd be "WTF ?!" if I was reading that in english class, not because it's sexual or a bit graphic but because it's shocking as it is in english class i'm reading it and not sex ed or whatever.

brummytom

She gets that and we get bloody To Kill a Mockingbird

Though I'd be so embarrassed having to read out sex scenes to the class!

Medievalist

What are the chances that once the bell rings for the end of English class, the Religion teacher comes in to preach about abstinence?

Snakeblood

Medievalist wrote: »

What are the chances that once the bell rings for the end of English class, the Religion teacher comes in to preach about abstinence?

Florida is apparently the second highest financer of abstinence education on a state level. After Texas.

rainbowtrout

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.tampabay.com/news/education/k12/gulf-high-school-ib-student-parents-object-to-book/1036488
Basically a student is objecting to the sex scenes in the book that she is reading as part of the class.


Below is a spoilered ecerpt from the New York Times (NSFW!)




This girl is sixteen, and she's learning this is school.:eek:

I'd be embarassed to read that on the bus.

The general reaction in the US is that she is being snotty and prudish, but tbh, a sixteen year old technically can't see a dirty movie, I'm not sure why they should have to read that.

There isn't a hope a book like that would be on the curriculum in Ireland, it would be considered too graphic and I bet there would be a lot of complaints from parents. I know a number of parents made complaints to the school I work in when one of the teachers was doing the sex ed section of the SPHE course, she was a young teacher so didn't mind being graphic and describing what oral sex involves, STDs, etc. A lot of parents want the clean, sanitised version for their children

I can also imagine that there would be a lot of teachers who would not want to read that out to a class of 16 year old boys. There would either be a class of crining students or total uproar.

Having said all that the school I work in is still bringing in people who have taken a vow of chastity until they are married to talk to the students about sex and relationships on retreat days. The students have named them 'The 40 year old virgins' and had lots of arguments with them about protection from STDs and responsible family planning, neither of which the group advocated :eek:

Somnus

ScienceNerd wrote: »

English class is not the place to learn about sex.

Unless you have a certain english teacher we both know...

In relation to the book, as you said, if the student is the one uncomfortable ( and there could be more than just one, others might just not have said anything) then there should probably be an alternative.

If that is just a once off thing in it then it's not too bad, but if it came up a few times then it's probably not the best

Overheal

My reading from the article is its some private school that has the kids going for a very top notch degree of some international recognition even though ive never heard of it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Baccalaureate

aaaanyway, yeah, its a Japanese book translated into English. Japanese are pretty ****ing open minded when it comes to sex are they not? If youre in a school that flaunts international culture you really ought to be prepared for cultures you might conflict with. Or you know, drop out and go to one of America's "upstanding" public schools, where you can be protected from sex and evolution.

Jesus Juice

I would give anything for this to be studied at LC.

Who complains and objects to reading this FFS??Its sounds like the most awesome book ever made!!

AnonoBoy

phasers wrote: »

That book is tame tbh, in my school we watched Old School in religion class in 3rd year

Hah! There's nothing in Old School that compares with some of the scenes in that book phasers.

jumpguy

The_Minister wrote: »

English class is not sex education class.

I firmly believe that we need detailed, practical, sex education, but I think it has to be acknowledged that books chosen for study in Leaving Cert should be appropriate for the audience they are aimed at.

It's not as if we are short of good, insightful books.

What, 17 or 18 year olds? At that age, if you're too immature to handle that then you must be seriously babied at home.

Although, I can imagine a girl reading that out in class. Nice...

phasers

AnonoBoy wrote: »

Hah! There's nothing in Old School that compares with some of the scenes in that book phasers.

Yeah but we were 14, she's 16

everytihng's dirty to us

eh, i wouldn't want my daughter reading a passage that glorifys phone sex at 16.. what if i walked in on her like.


i don't have a daughter but point stands.

Jesus Juice

Actually this reminds of my English class,our teacher laughs at ANYTHING even remotely dirty...and we're reading Hamlet!
Today she read out the word unanel'd and didnt stop laughing for 5 minutes.Then someone reading misread stiffly for stiffy and she said ''I cant wait to tell the teachers in the staff room that one''.

LOL this thread shows that Irish prudishness is still very much alive and well.

Prof.Badass

What a prude.

Schools should have mandatory practicals as part of sex ed :pac:.

rcs

Is this her teacher :

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Teacher-Helen-Goddard-Jailed-For-15-Months-For-Having-Lesbian-Affair-With-15-Year-Old-Pupil/Article/200909315385411?lpos=UK_News_News_Your_Way_Region_0&lid=NewsYourWay_ARTICLE_15385411_Teacher_Helen_Goddard_Jailed_For_15_Months_For_Having_Lesbian_Affair_With_15-Year-Old_Pupil

TPD

brummytom wrote: »

She gets that and we get bloody To Kill a Mockingbird

Hey, that's a good book. Got a bit sickening as I had it read 4 times before my class were half way through it though.

Theta

Hold on a second. If your able to have sex at 16 in the UK or 17 here why can you read about it in a book when you are 16 or 17?? I dont see any problem with it. Its only a book.

LD 50

What book is this?

fap fap fap

Overheal

irlmarc wrote: »

Hold on a second. If your able to have sex at 16 in the UK or 17 here why can you read about it in a book when you are 16 or 17?? I dont see any problem with it. Its only a book.

it all makes sense now: shes uncomfortable because shes a virgin

Fuhrer

irlmarc wrote: »

Hold on a second. If your able to have sex at 16 in the UK or 17 here why can you read about it in a book when you are 16 or 17?? I dont see any problem with it. Its only a book.

You're able to take a dump whenever you want, doesnt mean everyone should have to see it

Theta

But you should be able to read about it whenever you want!

Fuhrer

irlmarc wrote: »

But you should be able to read about it whenever you want!

But you shouldnt have it

Theta

I presume you ment to.

But say 20 other people wanted to does it mean that none of us should because you dont?

Corkfeen

"It's not fair that I have to read something that I'm totally against," she said. "If I have to drop out of IB, that's something I have to do. I'm not going to read the book."

For feck sake, american teens must be far too sheltered. We'd be delighted if we got to read that in english class. Murakami is a fairly acclaimed author from what I can recall, so why not teach something different.:D