Bus / Luas crash

parsi

DWCommuter wrote: »

Perhaps you'd care to explain to me Parsi, how my comment is stupid and insensitive or "crass" as you have decided to put it.

Did I mention "stupid and insensitive" ? No.

It's crass because for whatever reasons you've decided that there won't be accountability. Straight-off, knee-jerk, first-thought.

There was plenty accountability after the Navan incident.

Not so much maybe regarding the unlicensed minibus which lost its axle.

This forum seems to be littered with blinkered Anti-CIE zealots and blinkered pro-CIE zealots all of whom have to twist every incident to fit their weltanschauung.

BrianD

shltter wrote: »

Read micawbers posts just as an example of speculation turning into fact.

Others are people saying the bus driver admitted driving through a red light that is a bare faced lie.

It's not unusual in events like this people want to be involved and also allow their bias to take over so they speculate then turn it to fact.
.

I've read micawbers post and unless he has another post elsewhere it's perfectly reasonable. Assuming he was a witness, he is only relating what he or she saw. There is nowhere that he makes this a factual account of what happened or a matter of fact, just his version of events as he/she saw them. The stuff about the tram slowing down and ringing bell is not unusual at that junction. I believe that I have also seen traffic lights change to green as a tram was traversing the street. Somebody may tell me that this is impossible but I believe to have seen it.

I haven't read anywhere else (online or offline) that the bus driver admitted to anything and if I did one would find it hard to believe that in Ireland that somebody would admit liability.

Listening to the chairman of CIE wouldn;t exactly inspire me. The words "fairly sure" isn't exactly a definite statement of what actually happened. Having said, that he'd a brave man to go public with this so early so he must be satisfied with their version of events.

micawber

monument wrote: »

IF safety is really first, that's irrelevant.

What's irrelevant? That the tram slows down because people walk on the track? That the driver rings a bell to remind people that they are walking in front of a tram?

DWCommuter

parsi wrote: »

Did I mention "stupid and insensitive" ? No.

It's crass because for whatever reasons you've decided that there won't be accountability. Straight-off, knee-jerk, first-thought.

There was plenty accountability after the Navan incident.

Not so much maybe regarding the unlicensed minibus which lost its axle.

This forum seems to be littered with blinkered Anti-CIE zealots and blinkered pro-CIE zealots all of whom have to twist every incident to fit their weltanschauung.

You didn't mention the words Stupid or Insensitive but they are by definition meanings for the word "crass" hence my use of them.

I don't do "straight off, knee jerk, first thought" reactions and my stance on CIE is irrelevent.

I believe that accountability is very much lacking in many areas of Irish society. Our transport history in particular, is littered with examples of calamities where not one political or managerial scalp was taken.

HonalD

Who's responsible for the signals? Is it DCC? What if there was a conflict i.e. green for buses and "go" for trams? any thoughts?

Cicero

my first piece of advice from my driving instructor many years ago- accidents don't happen- they're caused!

Interested to see the final report on this, regardless of what is currently being claimed- it effects everyone who either drives or uses public transport in terms of their safety - considering that drivers of both buses and trams would be trained to a good standard, I would be very interested to know what procedures were not adhered to, or what new procedures need to be brought in- best wishes to all involved and hope you are recovering well

lncarosello

Here is a video I shot 45 minutes after the accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pogZaFir3X8

Victor

http://www.garda.ie/PressReleases/Default.aspx

Witness Appeal - Luas/Bus Crash on O'Connell Street, Dublin on the 16/9/09.

Anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai are appealing for witnesses to collision on O’Connell Street Lower, between a Luas tram and a Dublin Bus about 3.00 p.m. on the 16th of September, to contact them.

They would like to speak to anyone who was in the area of O’Connell Street Lower and Abbey Street junction between 2.50 p.m. and 3.15 p.m.

Gardai also believe that a number of passengers of the bus and the Luas may have left the scene before emergency services arrived and we would like them to contact us.

Anyone with any information is asked to contact Store Street Garda station on 01 666 8000.

Garda Press Office
17th September 2009.

spongeman

Dublin bus should have kept their gobs shut until the enquiry is complete.

The lights could have been faulty?

AlekSmart

Perhaps the most interesting spin-off from this accident is the continuing questionability of Dublin Bus routing so many services through O Connell St.

Yet again,this unhealthy fascination with OC St results in chaos for the entire city bus network.
It need not be so.

Interestingly enough the proximity of such a serious accident did nothing to prevent the Dualway City Tour operation from continuing with its lunatic practice of Parking an Open Top double deck directly on the junction of O Connell St and Sackville Place where it sits waiting for the inevitable serious accident which it will cause.

Traffic proceeding along O Connell St has its view of Traffic emerging from Sackville Place obscured and vice versa.
Pedestrians crossing O Connell St ditto.

The Bus in question sits well within the 5 Metre Safety Zone required by the Road Traffic Act and is even held there by a static Supervisor apparently designated to perform this duty.

The REALLY scary bit is that this parked Bus also interferes with an approaching drivers view of both Crossing Trams and Pedestrians and forces other traffic to assume undesirable positions to turn left into Abbey St.

Any attempts to advise the Dualway drivers usually results in a shouting match so I long ago ceased that.
What is worrying however is the gulf between the Garda Traffic Corps members,who will take no oul nonsense and move these chancers and the ordinary beat Gardai,who appear not to be unduly concerned at the quite obvious potential for serious mayhem.

The official situation is that both Dublin Bus and Dualway City Tour operations each have ONE stop on O Connell St.
Dualway have theirs at the Savoy Cinema.
Dublin Bus have theirs at Abbey St jct.

However Dualway appear to believe it requires a second stop on commercial grounds and therefore simply picked this highly dangerous site to display it`s corporate preference for Profit before Public Safety

O Connell St has since it`s expensive makeover been transformed into one VERY dangerous place for Humans,either on foot,cycle or in vehicles.

It`s long past time for ALL of the major vehicular users of the street to be called in and ORDERED to clean-up their act.

DWCommuter

spongeman wrote: »

Dublin bus should have kept their gobs shut until the enquiry is complete.

The lights could have been faulty?

Yeah the lights could be faulty, but I'm glad that this information came out. Interestingly it came from the CIE group chairman though and not DB.

Red Sleeping Beauty

rednik wrote: »

Actually we are members of a union. SIPTU.

Erm...

shltter wrote: »

Yeah but your contract prohibits you from joining another union.
It's a closed shop deal siptu did for a promise not to strike.

^

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the most interesting spin-off from this accident is the continuing questionability of Dublin Bus routing so many services through O Connell St.

Yet again,this unhealthy fascination with OC St results in chaos for the entire city bus network.
It need not be so.

This is the 16 bus that goes to the airport. Airlink bus uses O'Connell St as a pick up point as well. They want to dump tourists on O'Connell St.

I suppose in fairness though, considering there's absolutely feck all on O'Connell St what's the point in it being the centre of the city ?

DWCommuter

lncarosello wrote: »

Here is a video I shot 45 minutes after the accident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pogZaFir3X8

Cheers. Well done. Very detailed shots.

Quint

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps the most interesting spin-off from this accident is the continuing questionability of Dublin Bus routing so many services through O Connell St.

Yet again,this unhealthy fascination with OC St results in chaos for the entire city bus network.
It need not be so.

I remember getting a special airport bus from Busaras to the airport. Thought I was on the wrong bus when it headed down the south quays. But it turned down O'Connell street! Unbelievable, that a airport bus actually uses this route. Never mind the port tunnel, even just go down Amiens street and up towards drumcondra!

BrianD

HonalD wrote: »

Who's responsible for the signals? Is it DCC? What if there was a conflict i.e. green for buses and "go" for trams? any thoughts?

Are the traffic lights not a part of the tram signalling system? Obviously "rebranded" for street use.

I'm curious about the Garda call for witnesses. 3.15 seems to be a long while after the incident or is it just to help people jog their memory as to where they might have been.

With Veoila staying quite, Dublin Bus saying that they were "fairy certain" the liht was green (and what else do you do but go) and the Gardai looking for more witnesses it looks like the three separate investigations are starting to converge.

spongeman

However, whether the lights are green or blue or pink, if I'm driving a bus accross that junction I really should be dong it with utmost caution?

IIMII

The speedlimit should be reduced to 20km on O'Connell St. It shouldn't be any higher. The buses and cars go too quickly along the street considering that there are so many roaming pedestrians, etc.

loyatemu

IIMII wrote: »

The speedlimit should be reduced to 20km on O'Connell St. It shouldn't be any higher. The buses and cars go too quickly along the street considering that there are so many roaming pedestrians, etc.

its already 30km/h - that's slow enough to react to most events. I doubt its enforced in any way though.

robnet77

Alan Rouge wrote: »

Erm...



^



This is the 16 bus that goes to the airport. Airlink bus uses O'Connell St as a pick up point as well. They want to dump tourists on O'Connell St.

I suppose in fairness though, considering there's absolutely feck all on O'Connell St what's the point in it being the centre of the city ?

I reckon line 16 is the one involved, it doesn't reach the airport (stops in Santry), whereas 16A does, it wouldn't be that bad to move line 16 somewhere else... I can't but point out though than most bus drivers cross traffic lights at ridiculously high speed nearly everywhere in Dublin...

Sesshoumaru

IIMII wrote: »

The speedlimit should be reduced to 20km on O'Connell St. It shouldn't be any higher. The buses and cars go too quickly along the street considering that there are so many roaming pedestrians, etc.

It would be comical to see so many vehicles travelling that slowly. Better to just close it to all traffic rather than have a ridiculously low limit like that.

shltter

spongeman wrote: »

However, whether the lights are green or blue or pink, if I'm driving a bus accross that junction I really should be dong it with utmost caution?

Another example of someones bias coming out, irrespective of how the evidence stacks up some people are utterly determined to blame the bus driver.

shltter

robnet77 wrote: »

I reckon line 16 is the one involved, it doesn't reach the airport (stops in Santry), whereas 16A does, it wouldn't be that bad to move line 16 somewhere else... I can't but point out though than most bus drivers cross traffic lights at ridiculously high speed nearly everywhere in Dublin...

More of the same the tram hit the bus full on the side the bus did not hit anything but the tram is sexy and the bus is not so you search for a way to place the blame on the bus driver.

You should try and find out what proceed with caution means because it certainly does not mean crawl through the junction at snails pace in case a tram side swipes you.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

rednik

If that were the case nobody would ever arrive on time and as it is there are enough complainants clock watching. People should wait until the investigation is completed and the findings are made public.

Carawaystick

I'm fairly sure there is no pedestrian crossing from the median on O'Connell St. North of the tram lines to the part south of the tram lines.
This means pedestrians crossing have right of way over any trams passing through, as vehicles need to give way to pedestrians.
Trams aren't Mechanicaly Propelled Vehicles within the meaning of the road trafic acts, but they are vehicles and like pushbikes they need to yield to pedestrians at non-controlled crossings.
This is just an example of how the whole junction there was badly designed, for such an obvious oversight to remain for so long.

Have there been any updates on the casualties? I hope noone was transferred to Beaumont, and they all recover fully.

brandodub

rednik wrote: »

If that were the case nobody would ever arrive on time and as it is there are enough complainants clock watching. People should wait until the investigation is completed and the findings are made public.

Agree-blame game solves nothing.We need to know the full dynamics of this accident to prevent a similar future one.

I.S.T.

IIMII wrote: »

The speedlimit should be reduced to 20km on O'Connell St. It shouldn't be any higher. The buses and cars go too quickly along the street considering that there are so many roaming pedestrians, etc.

That's because many of them are travelling faster than 30kmh. Is it not better to enforce the existing speed limit instead of resorting to a redicilious limit of 20kmh?

Ste.phen

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It would be comical to see so many vehicles travelling that slowly. Better to just close it to all traffic rather than have a ridiculously low limit like that.

Why then, if the lights were favourable, it would take 108 seconds to get from the bridge to the ambassador! The entire economy would collapse!

IIMII

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

It would be comical to see so many vehicles travelling that slowly. Better to just close it to all traffic rather than have a ridiculously low limit like that.

Why? I tried it myself last night, and it felt comfortable enough. Most of the traffic travels along O'Connell street above the speed limit in the evenings. If they were to close O'Connell St to traffic, with an alternative routing in place, fine I'd have no problems. But reducing a 600m section of road in the inner city to 20kph is not that big a deal - I think it is one street that buses and cars should not have priority over pedestrian interests. It's not that long ago a truck mounted the pavement at the spire either, so I think it should be a very low speedlimit in the area

Victor

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=4399

Renewed Witness Appeal - Luas/Bus Crash on O'Connell Street on the 16/9/09.
Gardai have now conducted a preliminary investigation into the collision at Abbey Street.

Gardai have now conducted a preliminary investigation into the collision at Abbey Street and O'Connell Street, Dublin 1 on Wednesday, the 16th September 2009.

The public's response has been very helpful, however Gardai are now anxious to interview people who were in the following areas between 2.30pm and 3.10pm on the day of the incident.:-

1. Pedestrians who were outside 'Clarks' shoe shop on Lower O'Connell Street

2. Pedestrians who were on the median strip or crossing the median strip at the Abbey Street / O'Connell street junction.

3. Drivers of private vehicles and taxis travelling northbound towards Parnell Square at this time.

Anyone with information is asked to contact the Gardai at Store Street 01-666-8000, the Garda Confidential Line 1-800-666-111 or any Garda Station.

Previous Press Release is attached for your information.

Garda Press Office
18th September 2009

HonalD

BrianD wrote: »

Are the traffic lights not a part of the tram signalling system? Obviously "rebranded" for street use.

I'm curious about the Garda call for witnesses. 3.15 seems to be a long while after the incident or is it just to help people jog their memory as to where they might have been.

With Veoila staying quite, Dublin Bus saying that they were "fairy certain" the liht was green (and what else do you do but go) and the Gardai looking for more witnesses it looks like the three separate investigations are starting to converge.

The LUAS lights are a "bolt-on" to the normal traffic signals. Could the link have been in conflict?