Be a bitch, break the rules and keep yourself safe.[ trigger warning]

Nevyn

I get called a bitch a lot cos I speak up, point out things which I don't find acceptable and refuse to put up with other peoples bull****, and I do believe that a guy doing the same would just be a hard hitter, but such double standards and how we expect people to behave due to their gender can cause a lot of harm.

Girls and women are expected to be more polite, more tolerant, more forgiving, part of being seen as soft and lets face it weak cos then men are seen as stronger and as protector ( which can be also harmful to men ). This often goes against women in the work place if a woman is assertive she's a bitch and a ball breaker if a guy is as equally assertive the same standard is not applied.

For the most part I am assertive when I need to be and will call people out on behaviour which I think is just not on but I do know that not every woman is as assertive as me for a range of reasons but some of them I do think are due to social conditioning and how to be good and nice so people will like you
and some one may want to be with you.

And then this evening I read this and was blown away by it.
We are told to be nice girls and good and polite and when it comes to
dealing with sexual predators and arseholes that just doesn't work but so many women find it hard to stand up to them as it's not nice.

Being nice and polite and ladylike only works if the other person is not a dick and has manners and will respect boundaries and sometimes there is nothing as empowering as telling someone loudly and clearly to 'go away, leave me alone' but we suffer the consequences of being called crazy as we are then the person acting out of turn.

Any way here's the link to the blog post.
http://fugitivus.wordpress.com/2009/06/26/another-post-about-rape-3/

By the by, I consistently use that title because I mean for it to operate as a trigger warning. I write a lot about rape, but sometimes I write about other things, and I don’t want anybody taken off-guard transitioning from “help computer” into wtf rape-talk. Case you were wondering.

I was re-reading my five billion goddamn posts about rape and force, and I realized (surprise!) there is a more succinct way for me to express what I was thinking. I tend to go on and on, circling a subject, trying to get out everything in my head that possibly relates to it, and then sometimes find I didn’t really address the subject at all. So, here is what I wanted to say in those five billion posts about rape:

If women are raised being told by parents, teachers, media, peers, and all surrounding social strata that:

* it is not okay to set solid and distinct boundaries and reinforce them immediately and dramatically when crossed (”mean bitch”)
* it is not okay to appear distraught or emotional (”crazy bitch”)
* it is not okay to make personal decisions that the adults or other peers in your life do not agree with, and it is not okay to refuse to explain those decisions to others (”stuck-up bitch”)
* it is not okay to refuse to agree with somebody, over and over and over again (”angry bitch”)
* it is not okay to have (or express) conflicted, fluid, or experimental feelings about yourself, your body, your sexuality, your desires, and your needs (”bitch got daddy issues”)
* it is not okay to use your physical strength (if you have it) to set physical boundaries (”dyke bitch”)
* it is not okay to raise your voice (”shrill bitch”)
* it is not okay to completely and utterly shut down somebody who obviously likes you (”mean dyke/frigid bitch”)

If we teach women that there are only certain ways they may acceptably behave, we should not be surprised when they behave in those ways.

And we should not be surprised when they behave these ways during attempted or completed rapes.

Women who are taught not to speak up too loudly or too forcefully or too adamantly or too demandingly are not going to shout “NO” at the top of their goddamn lungs just because some guy is getting uncomfortably close.

Women who are taught not to keep arguing are not going to keep saying “NO.”

Women who are taught that their needs and desires are not to be trusted, are fickle and wrong and are not to be interpreted by the woman herself, are not going to know how to argue with “but you liked kissing, I just thought…”

Women who are taught that physical confrontations make them look crazy will not start hitting, kicking, and screaming until it’s too late, if they do at all.

Women who are taught that a display of their emotional state will have them labeled hysterical and crazy (which is how their perception of events will be discounted) will not be willing to run from a room disheveled and screaming and crying.

Women who are taught that certain established boundaries are frowned upon as too rigid and unnecessary are going to find themselves in situations that move further faster before they realize that their first impression was right, and they are in a dangerous room with a dangerous person.

Women who are taught that refusing to flirt back results in an immediately hostile environment will continue to unwillingly and unhappily flirt with somebody who is invading their space and giving them creep alerts.

People wonder why women don’t “fight back,” but they don’t wonder about it when women back down in arguments, are interrupted, purposefully lower and modulate their voices to express less emotion, make obvious signals that they are uninterested in conversation or being in closer physical proximity and are ignored. They don’t wonder about all those daily social interactions in which women are quieter, ignored, or invisible, because those social interactions seem normal. They seem normal to women, and they seem normal to men, because we were all raised in the same cultural pond, drinking the same Kool-Aid.

And then, all of a sudden, when women are raped, all these natural and invisible social interactions become evidence that the woman wasn’t truly raped. Because she didn’t fight back, or yell loudly, or run, or kick, or punch. She let him into her room when it was obvious what he wanted. She flirted with him, she kissed him. She stopped saying no, after a while.

These rules for social interactions that women are taught to obey are more than grease for the patriarchy wheel. Women are taught both that these rules will protect them, and that disobeying these rules results in punishment.

Here’s a situation every woman is familiar with: some guy she knows, perhaps a casual acquaintance, perhaps just some dude at the bus stop, is obviously infatuated with her. He’s making conversation, he’s giving her the eye. She doesn’t like him. She doesn’t want to talk to him. She doesn’t want him near her. He is freaking her out. She could disobey the rules, and tell him to GET THE **** AWAY FROM HER, and continue screaming GET THE **** AWAY FROM ME every time he tries to step closer, or speak to her again. And then he will be all, “I was just talking to you! WTF!” and everybody else will be all, “Yeah, seriously, why’d you freak out at a guy just talking to you?” and refuse to offer the support she needs to be safe from dude. Or, the guy might become hostile, violent even. Ladies, you’ve seen that look, the “bitch can’t ignore me” look. It’s a source of constant confusion, as soon as you start budding breasts, that the man who just a moment ago told you how pretty you are is now calling you a stupid ugly whore, all because you didn’t get in his car.

OR

You could follow the rules. You could flirt back a little, look meek, not talk, not move away. You might have to put up with a lot more talking, you might have to put up with him trying to ask you out to lunch every day, you might even have to go out to lunch with him. You might have to deal with him copping a feel. But he won’t turn violent on you, and neither will the spectators who have watched him browbeat you into a frightened and flirtatious corner.

So we learn the rules will protect us. We learn that, when we step out of line, somebody around us might very well turn crazy. Might hurt us. And we won’t be defended by onlookers, who think we’ve provoked the crazy somehow. So, having your ass grabbed at the bus stop, having to go out to dinner with a guy you ****ing can’t stand, maybe even having to **** him once or twice, it’s a small sacrifice to avoid being ostracized, insulted, verbally abused, and possibly physically assaulted.

It’s a rude ****ing awakening when a woman gets raped, and follows the rules she has been taught her whole life — doesn’t refuse to talk, doesn’t refuse to flirt, doesn’t walk away ignoring him, doesn’t hit, doesn’t scream, doesn’t fight, doesn’t raise her voice, doesn’t deny she liked kissing — and finds out after that she is now to blame for the rape. She followed the rules. The rules that were supposed to keep the rape from happening. The rules that would keep her from being fair game for verbal and physical abuse. Breaking the rules is supposed to result in punishment, not following them. For every time she lowered her voice, let go of a boundary, didn’t move away, let her needs be conveniently misinterpreted, and was given positive reinforcement and a place in society, she is now being told that all that was wrong, this one time, and she should have known that, duh.

For anybody who has ever watched the gendered social interactions of women — watched a woman get browbeaten into accepting attention she doesn’t want, watched a woman get interrupted while speaking, watched a woman deny she is upset at being insulted in public, watched a woman get grabbed because of what she was wearing, watched a woman stop arguing — and said and done nothing, you never have the right to ever ask, “Why didn’t she fight back?”

She didn’t fight back because you told her not to. Ever. Ever. You told her that was okay, and necessary, and right.

You didn’t give her a caveat. You didn’t say, “Unless…” You said, “Good for you, shutting up and backing down 99% of the time. Too bad that 1% of the time makes you a ****ing whore who deserved it.”

Nobody obtains the superpower to behave dramatically differently during a frightening confrontation. Women will behave the same way they have been taught to behave in all social, professional, and sexual interactions. And they will be pretty goddamned surprised to come out the other end and find out that means they can legally be raped at any time, by just about anybody.

I am focusing on women here. I tend to do that, being one and all, but let’s mention something about men. If men have been raised to behave aggressively, to discount what women and weaker men want and feel and say, to obtain power and social standing through force, to deny emotions exist, to feel that women are fundamentally a different species, to set a boundary and keep it NO MATTER WHAT, to make a decision and stick to it NO MATTER WHAT, to feel entitled to sex, to feel they will be ostracized and possibly physically attacked if they don’t acquire sex with women, to feel under threat of harassment and attack if they don’t constantly maintain a hyper-masculine exterior, to prove their manhood through dangerous and degrading physical activities…

if you have seen men behave in this way, and encouraged it, and thought it was normal, so normal you didn’t even see it…

then you never have the right to say “He couldn’t possibly have done that” when you hear that your brother raped somebody.

That wasn’t concise at all. What I mean to say is:

The way men and women interact on a daily basis is the way they interact when rape occurs. The social dynamics we see at play between men and women are the same social dynamics that cause men to feel rape is okay, and women to feel they have no right to object. And if you accept those social interactions as normal and appropriate in your day to day life, there is absolutely no reason you should be shocked that rape occurs without screaming, without fighting, without bruising, without provocation, and without prosecution. Behavior exists on a continuum. Rape doesn’t inhabit its own little corner of the world, where everything is suddenly all different now. The behavior you accept today is the behavior that becomes rape tomorrow. And you very well might accept it then, too.

When was the last time you asserted yourself when someone intruded on you?
How did you feel? Empowered or embarrassed?

Monkey_Pirate

Empowered, I took that fe**er to the ground with a heel.

Shelga

Personally I have no idea what you are talking about. There is a difference between women being taught to be polite and have manners, and being taught not to defend themselves adequately against possible rapists.

I am a 22 year old female and have never had a problem with a man giving me unwanted attention and refusing to take no for an answer. Tbh your post came across to me as a little paranoid and misandric. Of course, if I ever was in that position, I have no doubt that I would not be afraid to 'fight back', whether it did any good or not.

The situation at the bus stop? The woman WOULD appear crazy if she screamed 'no!' at a man who was just chatting to her in broad daylight!

Also, women can be violent and refuse to take no for an answer too. Of course it is not the same, I'm just saying it happens. Why else would they make movies like Fatal Attraction

That's just how your post came across to me personally..

Das Kitty

I'm an assertive person who gets my point heard. I do, however, try to phrase my objections diplomatically whilst still being clear. My boss who I started working for 4 years ago is an expert at this so I have learned a lot from him. I know some people probably think I'm a bitch, but overall I think I am liked and respected. I do get the feeling though from some people that they resent even being stood up to by me (a woman). I know when my boss refuses to budge on an important issue that there is no lasting ill will.

I don't mind much. Away with them if they get personal feelings over work issues. That's their problem. My boss reminded me today of one of my first meetings with managers just after I was promoted. One of them is particularly forceful and purposely awkward to test the boundaries with people. Told me my people were only allowed work in his area on Sundays. I wouldn't budge (my mandate was no unnecessary overtime) and I thought his head was going to explode, he started pounding the desk! Presented my plan and came out 10
minutes later with what I wanted without losing the head. I'm sure he thinks I'm a bitch, but I don't care because he's not exactly a nice person.

All that said I spoke to our lodger like he was 4 today, in fairness he was acting like one, purposely scraping his plate to annoy my husband.

metrovelvet

When someone intruded on me, literally, I had an intruder in the house downstairs while I was upstairs asleep but I heard them and woke up, I froze, just couldn't move, it was out of my control, my body just stopped.

I still have nightmares about it, where I wake up thinking there's someone in the house, but I wake up and cant move.

It scares me that I had this reaction because if I ever were sexually assaulted, I probably wouldnt be able to move or fight back or anything.

35notout

I just want to know who "teaches" women this **** ?

My mother or father certainly didnt, and I am intelligent enough to realise that being a door mat is not the way I wont to live my life.

I dont care about people's perceptions of me - call me a ball breaker, crazy bitch, stuck up bitch or whatever variation suits you. You are not inportant in my life - so why am I important to you?

People should learn to live for themselves, not for what other people think of them

Nevyn

Fair enough if you are an assertive woman who takes no crap from anyone and shrug off those who try and get to to conform to being 'nice' but there are plenty of women who are not that way.

metrovelvet

35notout wrote: »

I just want to know who "teaches" women this **** ?

My mother or father certainly didnt, and I am intelligent enough to realise that being a door mat is not the way I wont to live my life.

I dont care about people's perceptions of me - call me a ball breaker, crazy bitch, stuck up bitch or whatever variation suits you. You are not inportant in my life - so why am I important to you?

People should learn to live for themselves, not for what other people think of them

That's a nice sentiment and good for you but you can risk alienation, and the more community dependent you are the more you do have to give a crap what people think. If you live in a small town or community piss off one person you may as well have pissed them all off.

Maguined

There is a difference between being assertive and being aggressive, in my experience those people who get accused of being a bitch or an asshole generally think they are being assertive when they are being aggressive. There is nothing wrong with getting your point or opinion across but it is how you choose to convey that opinion that determines whether you get labelled assertive or a bitch. There will always be a few people that just don't like being stood up to so will label you a bitch/asshole no matter what but if a numerous portion of your work colleagues are all coming to the same perception of you then chances are you are being overly aggressive.

Generally I have found in my proffessional career it is the people that try to be more directly assertive tend to be less successful that those who can get their opinion across subtly, in fact the best manager I have seen rarely every goes head to head with people and its quite skilled and manipulating people into coming around to his thinking but he is so good at it he makes you think that was your opinion all along so you walk away happy and content.

Nevyn

The thing is what is considered agressive behaviour for a woman is often considered to be merely assertive behaviour for a man and that is part of the double standard.

AARRRGH

Thaedydal wrote: »

The thing is what is considered agressive behaviour for a woman is often considered to be merely assertive behaviour for a man and that is part of the double standard.

That's just not true. An aggressive man is an aggressive man. Only idiots confuse being aggressive with being assertive.

You have to remember as well that men and women are biologically different, with one of the major differences being testosterone. Basically, men have been built to be more aggressive.

I'd also like to point out that men don't have it easy, you know. In general, if a man is sensitive he's considered a bit of a pussy. Just like an aggressive woman is considered a psycho. So it works both ways.

Also, you know the phrase every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Well, if you notice people are treating you badly or reacting to you negatively, look at your own behavior before you get angry at the world. Don't be another victim full of misdirected anger.

liah

There's a huge difference between being tactfully assertive and just being a flat-out bitch.

There's never a reason for the latter.

DubiousDude

Seems to me you have issues you need to deal with. Your thinking is rather distorted. Smells to me like you're a misandric feminist. Think about it for a second, if you just listened and obeyed like a good girl does , you would not need to be so ASSERTIVE and you would then be far more popular with guys! Win win situation.

Mr Benevolent

That's ridiculous, over the top stuff straight out of a movie. OP, there's a difference between speaking your mind and that crap you just quoted. Very few men will act like that, and even fewer women will tolerate it.

The thing is what is considered agressive behaviour for a woman is often considered to be merely assertive behaviour for a man and that is part of the double standard.

Sounds like this is your issue, not a generic one. You're over-generalising, OP. My girlfriend is very assertive and would never tolerate aggressive male behaviour. Yet not once has she ever been called anything alluded to in your quote by me or any other male. With respect I suggest you work on your own personal issues and not imagine they are relevant to most other women, Irish or not.

metrovelvet

Maguined wrote: »

Generally I have found in my proffessional career it is the people that try to be more directly assertive tend to be less successful that those who can get their opinion across subtly, in fact the best manager I have seen rarely every goes head to head with people and its quite skilled and manipulating people into coming around to his thinking but he is so good at it he makes you think that was your opinion all along so you walk away happy and content.

He must be in touch with his feminine side!

I do think there is a double standard and also a bit of a vicious cycle. For example, try getting taken seriously by a doctor or a plumber if you are a woman. This can be a frustrating experience which can lead one to become aggressive if one hasn;t been getting heard, no matter how skillfully you are trying to get the point across.

I do think that women who keep their trap shut are more attractive and likeable to others in general. Everyone thought Sinead O'connor was bonkers but its perfectly ok for men to throw tvs out the window and set guitars on fire on a stage. If Sinead O'Connor tried to eat a bat, they's send for the men in white coats.

I also think that women/girls do not have enough outlets to play out being assertive/aggressive while also playing by the rules. If I had a daughter I would insist that she join some kind of competetive sport so she could play out these issues.

metrovelvet

DubiousDude wrote: »

Seems to me you have issues you need to deal with. Your thinking is rather distorted. Smells to me like you're a misandric feminist. Think about it for a second, if you just listened and obeyed like a good girl does , you would not need to be so ASSERTIVE and you would then be far more popular with guys! Win win situation.

Is that your way of calling OP crazy? Case in point.

AARRRGH

liah wrote: »

There's a huge difference between being tactfully assertive and just being a flat-out bitch.

There's never a reason for the latter.

Yep.

Insecure people always think they have to be mean to be safe. It's stupid.

People should just treat others as they would like to be treated themselves. It's easy to be nice, and when you're nice, people are nice back to you. End result: no conflict.

Xiney

DubiousDude wrote: »

Seems to me you have issues you need to deal with. Your thinking is rather distorted. Smells to me like you're a misandric feminist. Think about it for a second, if you just listened and obeyed like a good girl does , you would not need to be so ASSERTIVE and you would then be far more popular with guys! Win win situation.

trolls on the internet have it wrong, because I hold the club.

Banned.

Love2love

I am the only girl in my family with 6 brothers. My mother always said that I was the one she DIDN'T have to worry about. I am the Bitch! I am physically strong, fit and assertive. However, I am personally terrified to walk home alone in the dark, even at 9pm! I panic at the first person I meet (especially if they are alone) My mother said this is why she doesn't worry about me - because I am afraid. I take nothing for granted when it comes to my personal safety and am always looking for a way out of a situation yet to happen.

I know some of my friends are completely different to me. Getting into Taxi's alone without letting a friend know the number. When I get into the taxi alone the first thing I do is give my friend the number of the plate & licence - some taxi drivers take offence and I know they think I'm a bitch but hey, its my safety I'm worried about not theirs. Others will tell me that I completely right to do so and that they encourage their own daughters / nieces / friends to do the same. One friend had a completely terrifying experience with a taxi driver who wouldnt let her out of the car.

I know some girls that would leave a nightclub with a complete stranger for a night of loving without even giving her friends an idea of where she is going because she doesn't want to be judged (she'll tell them she left early and went home alone) To that girl, I say you are very lucky - not because you pulled but because you put your personal safety in the hands of a stranger and came out the other end.

Basically what I am saying is that yes, girls differ in their assertivness(sp) and yes, sometimes you will make the wrong decision that will lead you up the wrong path but please trust your friends! If you are not assertive, let your friends be assertive for you. They are the one that will be there with you the following week in the nightclub, they are the ones calling you the next day to make sure you are Ok. They are the ones who will tell that man who thinks he has the right to pinch your bum that he is not allowed to do that and if he doesn't get his feffin hands off you - they'll kill him!

beks101

I think it's important to be nice and treat people with respect.

I'm nowhere near a 'doormat'; I will, and do, assert myself and voice my opinions/objections on a daily basis if needs be. But I won't, raise my voice, come down on someone like a ton of bricks, interrogate them, bark orders, etc. Of course we all find ourselves in situations where it's provoked, but I will invariably feel it to be inappropriate to reduce myself to this, where a diplomatic conversation based on the facts, or a firm email will do the job in a far more professional way. I've yet to come across a situation in my work place where it hasn't worked.

If a woman does the above things consistently and gains a reputation as a ball buster / b1tch, then it's deserved, as far as I'm concerned. If a man does the same and it's generally accepted, then there's a problem, because as far as I'm concerned, he's a pr1ck.

Agree with the point about assertive and aggressive being two separate things. People skills and diplomacy are for some people, far more difficult to adopt than simply ramming their opinions down others' throats and justifying it by calling themselves 'assertive'.

Nevyn

AARRRGH wrote: »

You have to remember as well that men and women are biologically different, with one of the major differences being testosterone. Basically, men have been built to be more aggressive.

Women have testosterone as well and some of them have fairly high levels compared to others.

AARRRGH wrote: »

I'd also like to point out that men don't have it easy, you know. In general, if a man is sensitive he's considered a bit of a pussy. Just like an aggressive woman is considered a psycho. So it works both ways.

I already stated that such social conditioning effects both men and women negatively.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Also, you know the phrase every action has an equal and opposite reaction? Well, if you notice people are treating you badly or reacting to you negatively, look at your own behavior before you get angry at the world. Don't be another victim full of misdirected anger.

This isnt' about me personally it is about who when a woman steps out of what is consider acceptable behaviour for a person of her gender then she is
often vilified for it even when she is defending her self and if we as a society punish that behaviour then it is harder for women to stand up for themselves and defend themselves.

Confab wrote: »

That's ridiculous, over the top stuff straight out of a movie. OP, there's a difference between speaking your mind and that crap you just quoted. Very few men will act like that, and even fewer women will tolerate it.

Then why is it then that most women will have been sexually assaulted before they reach the age of 20? if so few men act like that?
Every woman will have been pestered at some stage in their life by more then one man who over step those boundaries.

That is not acceptable behaviour and speaking out about it should be.

Confab wrote: »

Sounds like this is your issue, not a generic one. You're over-generalising, OP. My girlfriend is very assertive and would never tolerate aggressive male behaviour. Yet not once has she ever been called anything alluded to in your quote by me or any other male. With respect I suggest you work on your own personal issues and not imagine they are relevant to most other women, Irish or not.

You are 100% sure that no man has ever called her any of those names when she has asserted herself? have you ever asked her?

Nevyn

AARRRGH wrote: »

Yep.

Insecure people always think they have to be mean to be safe. It's stupid.

People should just treat others as they would like to be treated themselves. It's easy to be nice, and when you're nice, people are nice back to you. End result: no conflict.

I am polite, I do have manners, I will always try and conduct myself with good grace and be civil but there are times when that does not work, either guys are thick or wilfully ignoring or don't care and press on.

The thread is about how women are social conditioned in a certain ways which then do not serve them when they have to deal with someone who does not respect them and their boundaries and how hard it can be to speak out.

So what happens when people are not nice when you are nice to them?

liah

Thaedydal wrote: »

So what happens when people are not nice when you are nice to them?

Walk away until they choose to conduct themselves in an adult, respectful manner?

AARRRGH

Thaedydal wrote: »

Women have testosterone as well and some of them have fairly high levels compared to others.

Ah yeah but in general women's testosterone levels are no where near mens.

Thaedydal wrote: »

I am polite, I do have manners, I will always try and conduct myself with good grace and be civil but there are times when that does not work, either guys are thick or wilfully ignoring or don't care and press on.

How often do men give you hassle though? Is there a pattern?

I would think it very odd if you are getting agro from strangers more than one or twice every couple of years.

Confrontation and agro should be very rare things in your life.

Thaedydal wrote: »

So what happens when people are not nice when you are nice to them?

It happens so rarely I could actually tell you the incidents. On the last occassion it was a flatmate who was trying some funny business with the rent. I think she was trying to get away with not paying the last months rent. Anyway, I knew this girl had a lot of emotional problems so I just acted nicely and explained to her I need the rent tomorrow and that if she doesn't pay it she will have to move out immediately. She paid the rent and went in a huff. But as I say, she has some serious emotional problems so I haven't taken it personally (I'm still in contact with her) but I admit it was a bit stressful at the time.

Seriously, people who think confrontation is a normal part of life - or feel they need to be defensive - need therapy. They are the problem, not the rest of the world.

Nevyn

AARRRGH wrote: »

How often do men give you hassle though? Is there a pattern?

I would think it very odd if you are getting agro from strangers more than one or twice every couple of years.

Confrontation and agro should be very rare things in your life.

Love how you are making this personal rather then about the topic of how girls and women are expected not to make a fuss or stand up for themselves.

oh yes it's called deflection and distraction.
This is not the PI forum, this isn't about me personally.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Seriously, people who think confrontation is a normal part of life - or feel they need to be defensive - need therapy. They are the problem, not the rest of the world.

So I talk about women standing up for themselves being forced into confronting someone who is not being nice and is crossing boundaries and imposing and I need therapy?
Thanks for that I shan't be responding to any more of your posts.

PhysiologyRocks

I'm polite to people. I like most people.

Still, if someone is horrible or over-persistent, I have no problem sticking up for myself.

I don't see it as one or the other.

Nevyn

liah wrote: »

Walk away until they choose to conduct themselves in an adult, respectful manner?

And what if they don't choose to do that and follow you or you can't get away from them with out majorly inconveniencing yourself due to their inappropriate behaviour?

Thaedydal

Thaedydal wrote: »

Love how you are making this personal rather then about the topic

In all fairness, he quoted the part of your post where you said "I" three times and talked about personal experience...


On topic, personally speaking I'm (I think) easygoing with definite boundaries. I will back down sometimes in arguments if it's not close to heart, because I like things being smoothed over, but I just don't have the energy a lot of the time for any arguing.
Except with extreme circumstances with oblivious idiots, there's usually subtle signals you can read/emit without being pushy. I also think that if you know yourself that you won't be crossed, you're solid enough not to have to turn things into a confrontation.

Seriously, people who think confrontation is a normal part of life - or feel they need to be defensive - need therapy.

I sometimes wonder though, if that's merely a result of a lot of confrontations/bad history, which may or may not have been instigated by them. Of course it still requires dealing with, but as I can't imagine they were just born that way, it probably does depend on interactions and thereby the "rest of the world".

liah

Thaedydal wrote: »

And what if they don't choose to do that and follow you or you can't get away from them with out majorly inconveniencing yourself due to their inappropriate behaviour?

If they are making a physical assault, then you have every right to do what you can to remove yourself from the situation, and that includes being harsh.

But if it's only verbal, there's no point in feeding into them. It's best to just ignore them and keep out of their lives if it's a continued thing. If it's a situation such as in the workplace, then simply report it and leave it in the hands of the company.

I can't really envision a scenario outside of a physical one in which it's okay to be a bitch rather than simply using an assertive "no thank you" or another relevant phrase and walking off.

brendansmith

Tbh there is a time and place. Going straight into a situation bullheaded and aggressive usually gets you the rep as a hothead.

You have to keep your head and remain calm, therefore maintaining a level of dignity but if all else fails by all means let rip but once your done compose yourself and dont let it dwell or fester. Just let it go.

AARRRGH

Thaedydal wrote: »

Love how you are making this personal rather then about the topic of how girls and women are expected not to make a fuss or stand up for themselves.

oh yes it's called deflection and distraction.
This is not the PI forum, this isn't about me personally.

Your tone and the fact that you started this topic implies this is something you feel quite strongly about. I don't know, I can't help but feel you expect agro to be a normal part of life.

But, my apologies if I am wrong.

Thaedydal wrote: »

So I talk about women standing up for themselves being forced into confronting someone who is not being nice and is crossing boundaries and imposing and I need therapy?
Thanks for that I shan't be responding to any more of your posts.

Hang on. Everyone in the entire world knows a person should stand up for themselves if they are being attacked or if something unpleasant is happening to them. We shouldn't even need to discuss that topic. So I find it weird that this is something you have an issue with.

But to be honest, it's actually quite difficult to understand what you typed so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

liah

liah wrote: »

I can't really envision a scenario outside of a physical one in which it's okay to be a bitch rather than simply using an assertive "no thank you" or another relevant phrase and walking off.

I have to say this reminds me a lot of people's stories with chuggers.
I know AH talk is over the top anyway but there's a lot of recommendations to be aggressive or whatever at them. There's also a lot of people, a surprising amount, who say they've been followed by some persistent ones who keep at them and they've no idea how to deal with them. Now I don't know about you guys, but I've never come across one that shaking my head and walking on didn't deal with very effectively...

But yeah me neither, maybe someone can give us one ??

AARRRGH

bluewolf wrote: »

In all fairness, he quoted the part of your post where you said "I" three times and talked about personal experience...

Indeed.

anonymous_joe

I had an ex-girlfriend who was blunt to the point of a fault, etc. Also, basically a 'bítch.'

A big part of the problem was that she had a tendency to use her gender as a shield, meaning that she would say things to people, most often men, that you'd never say to another lad because you know it'd lead to a fight. By her own admission this led to her getting threatened and even assaulted by people.

Obviously there's no justification to that, and I found it appalling, but I'd imagine most people would be quite capable of understanding if a guy who was acting in a similar way got a dig for being so rude.

There's not really that many situations where you have to go out of your way to be a bítch, man or woman. It's usually an unpopular methodology anyway. Subtlety's far more effective than directness I find.

Nevyn

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your tone and the fact that you started this topic implies this is something you feel quite strongly about. I don't know, I can't help but feel you expect agro to be a normal part of life.

But, my apologies if I am wrong.

I don't expect it to be a part of normal life at all, I expect people to have manners and be civil and have cop on, unfortunately some people don't.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Everyone in the entire world knows a person should stand up for themselves if they are being attacked or if something unpleasant is happening to them. We shouldn't even need to discuss that topic. So I find it weird that this is something you have an issue with.

I think it is a topic which does need discussing as I have know several women who are mannerly and nice to a fault and that has been taken advantage of due to this, I would say that this happens to most young women at some stage.

Piste

That blog post has one major flaw, the author seems to think that you must be either meek and docile (passive) or else scream blue murder if someone you dont like persists in talking to you (aggressive). It seems like the author's idea of assertion is actually total agression. It's nonsense to say that civility will lead to rape, or that women are taught to be subservient to men. Maybe in certain countries, but certainly not in the majority of the developed world.

banshee_bones

Example:

A few years back me and two other friends were waiting in the q at the taxi rank during race week, my two friends are (what I would call) 'entertaining' a couple of random muppets there talking BS with them and what not, mild flirtation etc.
I am however not paying them any attention Im simply looking the other way, biding my time,minding my own business (I have zero tolerance for muppetry of any kind) They all of a sudden pick up on this and all of a sudden I am the one who has a problem and being branded a bitch a c**t and every other name under the sun!
Sometime you just can't win. I wasnt being aggresive, assertive or anything of the sort.

I also know of people, men , where you have stated your dis-interest in them (or sometimes you havent) and they take your coolness/avoidance as some kind of game? Like your playing hard to get! When you have clearly stated you are NOT interested in them.

I actually had this happen recently to me. A guy asked me out and i politely declined, my friend came home a week later told me i had "his head melted" because I was being a bitch to him! ( I wasnt being a bitch I was simply being my usual self?)
I don't play games. I made my position very clear in a polite manner.

Some people just refuse to accept a "no" as exactly what it means.

LightningBolt

Thaedydal wrote: »

Being nice and polite and ladylike only works if the other person is not a dick and has manners and will respect boundaries

It's at that point that you become assertive upon realisation that the person hassling you will only respond to being told off. Being overly assertive the majority of the time rightly earns any woman/man the title of bitch/pig.

I'd a religion teacher who yelled at me and gave me a telling off in class because I invaded her personal space. I happened to drop a pen of my desk (at the top of the class), I got up and went around to pick it up and got within four feet of her when she went berserk shooting up out of her chair. I was 14/15 at the time and was really embarrassed by it. That woman to me was and still is a crazy ****er. What rational could one give for that response? Seeing as this is LL I also acknowledge that that particular woman isn't representative of all women, however, that particular type of overreacting to a situation (in my case I didn't even believe there to be a situation) is unwarranted and earns women the ball breaker tag.

Faith

Thaedydal wrote: »

Then why is it then that most women will have been sexually assaulted before they reach the age of 20? if so few men act like that?

Wait, what?! Most women will have been sexually assaulted by the time they were 20? What kind of assault are you talking about, and have you got anything to back that up? It sounds like a ludicrous statement to me.

shellyboo

Thaedydal wrote: »

When was the last time you asserted yourself when someone intruded on you?
How did you feel? Empowered or embarrassed?

I do it quite a lot in social situations, pubs and clubs. I have no problem making conversation with guys who approach me and I would never be a "bitch" to them (insulting them, ignoring them) - but I draw the line at them touching me. If a drunken creepy guy is talking to me, I'll chat away even if I have no interest - and yeah, it's so that I don't come off as a bitch - but if he touches me, no. First of all I'd remove his hand, and if he does it again I'll ask him politely not to touch me.

I'll leave it to yourselves to surmise how many call me a frigid bitch and how many take it with good grace.

metrovelvet

I read that blog very differently from how I think alot of people here were reading it.

I thought it was saying that rape and assault are the penultimate points [articulations] on a continuium of the dynamics of how women are socialised to behave.

So that one of the questions in determining whether or not an event was rape is "did she fight back?", it being an unfair question when women are told they are crazy. offesive or monsters for fighting back in other areas on that continuum.

I can even remember as young as 11 girls being teased for being prudes for not letting the boys stick their hands up their shirts.

metrovelvet

AARRRGH wrote: »

Your tone and the fact that you started this topic implies this is something you feel quite strongly about. I don't know, I can't help but feel you expect agro to be a normal part of life.

But, my apologies if I am wrong.




Hang on. Everyone in the entire world knows a person should stand up for themselves if they are being attacked or if something unpleasant is happening to them. We shouldn't even need to discuss that topic. So I find it weird that this is something you have an issue with.

But to be honest, it's actually quite difficult to understand what you typed so maybe I'm misunderstanding.

Im sorry but you are turning this into a personal evaluation. In fact you are doing something quite typical, in that you are delving into the OP's subjectivity when the OP posted a blog about something topical. You dont like the topic. You dont like what the blog said, so you're saying the OP has "issues."

This is another prime example of how women's opinions, voices, etc are dismissed and discredited.

shellyboo

metrovelvet wrote: »

I read that blog very differently from how I think alot of people here were reading it.

I thought it was saying that rape and assault are the penultimate points [articulations] on a continuium of the dynamics of how women are socialised to behave.

So that one of the questions in determining whether or not an event was rape is "did she fight back?", it being an unfair question when women are told they are crazy. offesive or monsters for fighting back in other areas on that continuum.

I can even remember as young as 11 girls being teased for being prudes for not letting the boys stick their hands up their shirts.

+1 million. It seemed to me to be about what happens after the fact... ie, if you flirted/kissed/ went somewhere alone with the guy/entertained him in any way then you were somehow "asking for it", when social conditioning does not allow for women to refuse to entertain someone they have no interest in, at all.

We see it *all* the time here on boards. Women who shut men down completely are just plain bitches.

Madame Razz

I'm pretty assertive and direct generally, to the point of blunt sometimes. I have to be in my line of work. But then I think a lot of people waste a SERIOUS amount of time skirting around issues and I prefer to get to the point. If the issue is a particularly sensitive one I can on occasion find it difficult to be as direct, but I get there eventually.

I'm all for being poilite, but being too polite just means that you end up being a doormat.

Aggression is not something I would favour, however if I am in a situation whereby the other person is aggressive(usually male) I have no problem in giving exactly as good as I get; and they back down pretty quickly. I don't take any **** and I don't see why anybody should tbh. In the case of a guy being sleazy or whatever, I try the polite approach first, and bitch approach second, bitch approach is generally more effective. I have been physically assaulted by a man previously, and despite injury I managed to push him out of my house and lock the door. It took every bit of courage and strength that I had at the time but I did it, and I would hope to think that I could do it again.

So yeah, I'm all for being assertive and standing up for myself, and I'm not all that bothered if that results in me coming across as a bitch. I know my own person and I'll be safe at the end of the day, so that's win win for me. I do think my height helps get that message across tho.

Maguined

I think the two very different situations being discussed that are getting mixed up together.

An actual physical assault in the form of rape and general disagreements and differences in peoples communication. I don't think a single person will argue that a woman should not assert herself and fight back against a physical assault if they can. Does this mean the same woman has to be overly assertive to the point if aggression towards any social situation that she does not agree with? of course not, acceptable behaviour is all about the context of the situation. Screaming and shouting because some man is trying to drag you down an alley is of course acceptable, screaming and shouting because some man asked to a second time for your phone when you said no the first time is generally not acceptable. It is all about raising the appropriate response to the situation at hand.

There will be lots of grey area of signals of rejection either being misunderstood or ignored but that does not mean you need to jump into aggressive defensive mode. In shellyboo's scenario for example, the guy puts his hand on her so should she jump up off her chair and back away from him screaming GET YOUR HANDS OFF ME at the top of her lungs? hardly, mere taking his hand away from her was being assertive enough without aggression and if he persists escalating it to telling him politely not to touch her should get the job done. I don't think anyone would call her a bitch for removing a guys hand as it was assertive but the appropriate level of response so not aggressive. If the guy persisted a third time to touch her then of course she would need to escalate things further.

I also reject the idea that aggressive behaviour from men would be considered acceptable while the same behaviour from women would have them labelled a bitch. Aggressive people are always going to be considered assholes by those around them regardless of gender as most people do not like aggression. There is also the factor that people tend to avoid confrontation so if you come across aggressive behaviour people tend to try and ignore it and avoid it, and as said by another poster men on average have more testosterone levels so if you are in a pub and some guy is being overly aggressive and obnoxious people tend to avoid rather than confront them as they don't want it to escalate into anything physical. How many times have you seen a fight in a pub because one guy was being a dick, most people ignored him but eventually he ticks off the wrong person and a fight ensues? this does not mean the people who ignored him find his behaviour acceptable in any way, they still think he is being an asshole they just don't want the confrontation. If a woman is behaving in the same aggressive obnoxious behaviour the result is generally the same only this time if her aggression is only targeted at men it will most likely be ignored completely, a man being aggression to a woman is far more likely to have some other male step in and defend the woman, a woman being aggressive to a man is not likely to have a woman step in to confront her over it and the man will generally not raise the confrontation to physical levels. Does this mean the woman's behaviour is any more or less acceptable, nope she is still being an asshole all the same.

MagicMarker

Women are bitches, men are bastards. This is nothing new really.

Why are we even discussing this? There are so many things wrong with the OP that I can't even be arsed addressing them.

I've met women who are bitches, I've met men who are bastards, I've met women who are shy and unassertive, I've met men who are the exact same.

Everything works both ways people, this topic is just silly.

MagicMarker

Thaedydal wrote: »

Fair enough if you are an assertive woman who takes no crap from anyone and shrug off those who try and get to to conform to being 'nice' but there are plenty of women who are not that way.

There are plenty of men who aren't that way.

metrovelvet

MagicMarker wrote: »

Women are bitches, men are bastards. This is nothing new really.

Why are we even discussing this? There are so many things wrong with the OP that I can't even be arsed addressing them.

I've met women who are bitches, I've met men who are bastards, I've met women who are shy and unassertive, I've met men who are the exact same.

Everything works both ways people, this topic is just silly.

OMG OMG I want to cry with how frustratingly simple this is. Yes there are women who are bitches. Yes there are men who are bastards. This is NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

It's about the different moral frameworks that are placed around women- they get unfairly judged as bitches when all they are doing is standing up for themselves or being forthcoming in asking for what they want or need. It's about the bias in our perceptions of their behavior. It's not about women or men who are outrageously aggressive.

OMG OMG someone please oh please explain this once and for all.

Madame Razz

metrovelvet wrote: »

OMG OMG I want to cry with how frustratingly simple this is. Yes there are women who are bitches. Yes there are men who are bastards. This is NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

It's about the different moral frameworks that are placed around women- they get unfairly judged as bitches when all they are doing is standing up for themselves or being forthcoming in asking for what they want or need. It's about the bias in our perceptions of their behavior. It's not about women or men who are outrageously aggressive.

OMG OMG someone please oh please explain this once and for all.

I think you just did:)

MagicMarker

metrovelvet wrote: »

OMG OMG I want to cry with how frustratingly simple this is. Yes there are women who are bitches. Yes there are men who are bastards. This is NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT!!!!

It's about the different moral frameworks that are placed around women- they get unfairly judged as bitches when all they are doing is standing up for themselves or being forthcoming in asking for what they want or need. It's about the bias in our perceptions of their behavior. It's not about women or men who are outrageously aggressive.

OMG OMG someone please oh please explain this once and for all.

You don't think men are unfairly referred to as bastards or pricks when they are assertive or forthcoming?

g'em

MagicMarker wrote: »

You don't think men are unfairly referred to as bastards or pricks when they are assertive or forthcoming?

That's not the issue here. The topic is not as simple as you seem to be portraying it. Why have you this compelling need to come into the discussion and dismiss it as silly? Why the need to be so disrespectful to the OP and everyone discussing it?

metrovelvet wrote:

It's about the different moral frameworks that are placed around women- they get unfairly judged as bitches when all they are doing is standing up for themselves or being forthcoming in asking for what they want or need. It's about the bias in our perceptions of their behavior. It's not about women or men who are outrageously aggressive.

+1