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Voting?
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11-09-2009 7:52pm#1
! Anyone who asks me am I voting, asks straight away am I voting No? its kind of annoying..!! Anyone else voting? Does anyone else find the leaflets on Lisbon of no help?? :pac: Comments
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Clicky.
tl;dr? An extract:No means no, surely?
Some people say, “Hey Beardy, we believe in the EU too. But this Treaty is a
different matter. We already voted on this thing and we voted no. What part of
no do our leaders not understand? I mean, it is only two letters. We voted no. No
means no, right?”
No does in fact mean no, and as a result the Irish government was unable to
ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and so the Treaty did not become law. In other words,
the decision of the Irish people was respected. That’s not true! Some say. If they
respected our decision, why are we voting again? Well, here’s why.
In the same way that the world has the annoying habit of turning, things in European
politics just did not stop when we said no. Firstly, we were asked by our European
partners, who along with us had spent eight years and thousands of hours of patient
diplomacy and negotiation on this Treaty, why we did not like the document.
When they asked us why we threw it out, the top three issues we brought up[*] were
the fear that this Treaty would bring abortion and conscription into this country and
the potential loss of our Commissioner. Our European partners were a bit confused.
And this is why:
They’ve been aware of our sensitivities about abortion for decades, which is
why there’s been a statement in EU law for the last eighteen years stating that
abortion is a matter for Irish people to decide. That statement is not changed
by the Treaty, nor has the EU ever brought in a single piece of law that has ever
questioned that statement. So for our European partners, associating abortion
with the Lisbon Treaty is to them like associating quantum mechanics with the
disappointing second album and subsequent career of Terence Trent D’Arby.
Conscription? A) There’s no mention of it in the Treaty, and
there’s no EU army to
conscript into.
As for our concern about the Commissioner. Now….this was something they could do
something about and a couple of other countries were not too happy about either. So all
countries agreed that if Lisbon ever became law, all countries would apply the rule in
the Treaty that all countries would keep their guy at the Commission table.
Once we got a number of legal guarantees
confirming that the issues we’ve imagined to
be in the Treaty are in fact our imagination
(abortion and conscription), plus the agreement
on the Commissioner, our European mates have
basically said, “So, we’ve heard you, we’ve dealt
with your concerns that you flagged with this
document that took us eight years to negotiate,
would you mind having another democratic look at it along with the other documentation
we’ve all agreed, to make sure?”
So, can we vote no a second time? Of course we can. Will it be respected? Yes it
will. As long as the Irish people choose not to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, it will not be
ratified. If we vote no a second time, the Treaty will remain exactly where it is now.
Un-ratified.
However, whereas we expect the rest of Europe to respect our decision, they want us
to also respect theirs.
We cannot be forced to ratify the Lisbon Treaty. That’s not just Irish law, that’s EU law.
But if we vote no a second time, we are in effect telling the other countries that this is
the end of the line for us. Not that we are leaving the EU, but that we have gone as far
as we are going.
The rest of the EU won’t like that answer, but they’ll accept it, and make their own
arrangements without us. Why? Because we told them we were no longer interested.
Shocking and all as the concept is, they will actually believe us. If there is anyone who
thinks that Ireland is better served by the great majority of our allies having private
discussions without us about the future of Europe, then let’s hear from them.
In 1916 we fought and defeated the most powerful empire in the world for the right to
speak for ourselves at the table of nations. The EU assured us of that place, and now we
seem eager to relinquish it, just as other small countries like Iceland seem very eager
to take our place. (Or, in the case of Iceland, is it plaice?)
This October, we get to decide our future, and despite what the cynics tell you,
our decision will be respected.
Perhaps we are only realising that now?
[*] The one I’m not including here is in fact the top answer to the survey after the Lisbon Treaty, which
was the ‘I didn’t understand it/it’s so complicated’ argument. Laziness is not really an ‘issue’ that our
European mates can help us with.0 -
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I was under the impression we lived in a democracy
how is this so when we, the people are asked to vote twice on the same referendum to which we already voted NO to just because our governmeant are a bunch of selfish idiotic assholes wanting to line their pockets without a second thought for the effects this will have on the ordinary people, and without giving us any new information? just lies and promices of a better future? to get out of the recession? be one with europe?
no more free education, no more neutrality, lower basic wages and oh yes the best part...ireland will have practicly no say in anything that is passed through the EU our vote couts for something minimal like 000.7%
last time i checked
it was against the IRISH CONSTITUTION (yes it is written in their go do some research if you dont believe me, written in LAW ) to make to people vote twice on the same referendum and that the peoples vote is law and final
How many more times will they push us untill they get the yes that so desperatly crave?
To spit on the history of our freedom? On the people who campaigned and fought to make ireland a free democratic country ??
where is our free ireland today?
it is being burned to the ground
and we shall once again stand back and watch it burn
0 -
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Metal_Princess wrote: »I was under the impression we lived in a democracy
how is this so when we, the people are asked to vote twice on the same referendum to which we already voted NO to just because our governmeant are a bunch of selfish idiotic assholes wanting to line their pockets without a second thought for the effects this will have on the ordinary people, and without giving us any new information? just lies and promices of a better future? to get out of the recession? be one with europe?
no more free education, no more neutrality, lower basic wages and oh yes the best part...ireland will have practicly no say in anything that is passed through the EU our vote couts for something minimal like 000.7%
last time i checked
it was against the IRISH CONSTITUTION (yes it is written in their go do some research if you dont believe me, written in LAW ) to make to people vote twice on the same referendum and that the peoples vote is law and final
How many more times will they push us untill they get the yes that so desperatly crave?
To spit on the history of our freedom? On the people who campaigned and fought to make ireland a free democratic country ??
where is our free ireland today?
it is being burned to the ground
and we shall once again stand back and watch it burnA Neurotic wrote: »Clicky.
tl;dr? An extract:No means no, surely?
Some people say, “Hey Beardy, we believe in the EU too. But this Treaty is a
different matter. We already voted on this thing and we voted no. What part of
no do our leaders not understand? I mean, it is only two letters. We voted no. No
means no, right?”
No does in fact mean no, and as a result the Irish government was unable to
ratify the Lisbon Treaty, and so the Treaty did not become law. In other words,
the decision of the Irish people was respected. That’s not true! Some say. If they
respected our decision, why are we voting again? Well, here’s why.
In the same way that the world has the annoying habit of turning, things in European
politics just did not stop when we said no. Firstly, we were asked by our European
partners, who along with us had spent eight years and thousands of hours of patient
diplomacy and negotiation on this Treaty, why we did not like the document.
When they asked us why we threw it out, the top three issues we brought up
[*] were
the fear that this Treaty would bring abortion and conscription into this country and
the potential loss of our Commissioner. Our European partners were a bit confused.
And this is why:
They’ve been aware of our sensitivities about abortion for decades, which is
why there’s been a statement in EU law for the last eighteen years stating that
abortion is a matter for Irish people to decide. That statement is not changed
by the Treaty, nor has the EU ever brought in a single piece of law that has ever
questioned that statement. So for our European partners, associating abortion
with the Lisbon Treaty is to them like associating quantum mechanics with the
disappointing second album and subsequent career of Terence Trent D’Arby.
Conscription? A) There’s no mention of it in the Treaty, and there’s no EU army to
conscript into.
As for our concern about the Commissioner. Now….this was something they could do
something about and a couple of other countries were not too happy about either. So all
countries agreed that if Lisbon ever became law, all countries would apply the rule in
the Treaty that all countries would keep their guy at the Commission table.
Once we got a number of legal guarantees
confirming that the issues we’ve imagined to
be in the Treaty are in fact our imagination
(abortion and conscription), plus the agreement
on the Commissioner, our European mates have
basically said, “So, we’ve heard you, we’ve dealt
with your concerns that you flagged with this
document that took us eight years to negotiate,
would you mind having another democratic look at it along with the other documentation
we’ve all agreed, to make sure?”
So, can we vote no a second time? Of course we can. Will it be respected? Yes it
will. As long as the Irish people choose not to ratify the Lisbon Treaty, it will not be
ratified. If we vote no a second time, the Treaty will remain exactly where it is now.
Un-ratified.
However, whereas we expect the rest of Europe to respect our decision, they want us
to also respect theirs.
We cannot be forced to ratify the Lisbon Treaty. That’s not just Irish law, that’s EU law.
But if we vote no a second time, we are in effect telling the other countries that this is
the end of the line for us. Not that we are leaving the EU, but that we have gone as far
as we are going.
The rest of the EU won’t like that answer, but they’ll accept it, and make their own
arrangements without us. Why? Because we told them we were no longer interested.
Shocking and all as the concept is, they will actually believe us. If there is anyone who
thinks that Ireland is better served by the great majority of our allies having private
discussions without us about the future of Europe, then let’s hear from them.
In 1916 we fought and defeated the most powerful empire in the world for the right to
speak for ourselves at the table of nations. The EU assured us of that place, and now we
seem eager to relinquish it, just as other small countries like Iceland seem very eager
to take our place. (Or, in the case of Iceland, is it plaice?)
This October, we get to decide our future, and despite what the cynics tell you,
our decision will be respected.
Perhaps we are only realising that now?
[*] The one I’m not including here is in fact the top answer to the survey after the Lisbon Treaty, which
was the ‘I didn’t understand it/it’s so complicated’ argument. Laziness is not really an ‘issue’ that our
European mates can help us with.
So what reason will you give us next Metal_Princess?
**** democracy. They should test you before you're allowed a vote.0 -
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