You say you want a revolushioohoon ...

peasant

...well here's an idea on how to possibly get one:

The Lisbon vote.
It's pretty clear that if it was a "no" vote again, Cowen and the governement would be finished ...mmmh, nice

It's also pretty clear that if it is a "no" vote again that the country will be marginalised within the EU and basically f0cked ...mmmh, not nice.

OK ..so convinced "no" voters will vote no anyway, but lots of potential yes voters are torn. They want to do the right thing for future of the country but don't want to give the current governement their seal of approval by proxy ...what are they supposed to do?

Well ...here's the deal:

If every "yes" voter votes "yes" but also alters their voting card by adding a hand written comment like "Cowen out" or "governement out" the governement will be in a right connundrum.
They might well get enough "yes" votes to carry the referendum ...but most of those Yes votes will be regarded as spoilt (because of the comment) and can't be counted.

So the tally will read someting like 40% "no" votes ...perfectly valid ones, perhaps another 10% perfectly valid "yes" votes and 50% spoilt "yes" votes.

Now I reckon that with 50% of the votes spoilt there surely is a way to nullify the referendum and just run it again ....after the governement has stepped down.


We win !

wudangclan

'peasants revolt?'

enda1

Votes are not counted as spoilt yes or spoilt no, just spoilt.

peasant

enda1 wrote: »

Votes are not counted as spoilt yes or spoilt no, just spoilt.

You can be quite sure that if it turns out that all the spoilt ones read "yes" as well, that someone will take note and jot down the numbers

phasers

That wouldn'tt work

Neamhshuntasach

You'd be better off just walking up to Brian Cowan and digging the fook outta him to be honest. The fists are mightier than the spoilt vote.

funk-you

How about bombarding every FF member with letters, emails, phone calls etc.

I'll vote YES if you leave office

Also let all the newspapers, radio/TV stations etc. know about it?

-Funk

peasant

funk-you wrote: »

How about bombarding every FF member with letters, emails, phone calls etc.

I'll vote YES if you leave office

Also let all the newspapers, radio/TV stations etc. know about it?

-Funk

Not a bad idea and perhaps a bit less risky than the spoilt vote.


Coming to think of it ...a great idea actually. All we need is a critical mass of letter writers

Ziggurat

Every time I see this suggestion I lose a little more faith in the Irish public.

Euro_Kraut

Would should vote YES to Lisbon. Its gives the EU are greater role in our government thus reducing the impact of Cowen and Co.

Capt'n Midnight

tbh nice would have passed if there was another way for people to show their opinion of the government.

they should add another question to the ballot, do you like us ? or something

then people could vote on the issue , not on the popularity of that bunch of overpaid wasters

My name is URL

Who'll replace the government if there was a revolt? Imagine the cost of holding a general election on such terms.. and with everything else that's going on atm

Antar Bolaeisk

This is an absolutley fantastic idea, not only would it effectively screw Ireland's future involvement with Europe (maybe the effects won't be immediately noticeable or even particularly tangible but Europe will not look favourably on Ireland irregardless of the reasons, perceived or apparent, for voting no) but we could also provide instability in the country at a time when we need stability. Sure I don't agree with how the government is managing this situation, they're weak, making all the wrong decisions for all the wrong reasons and prolong everything to the point where we're sick of hearing about it and afraid of what's coming down the line.

Voting No to Lisbon should only be done if you feel it is the right thing to do, not to spite the Government and possibly ruin future relations with Europe.

Capt'n Midnight

what is the cost of an election ?

bear in mind we are paying €400 million EXTRA in interest per year because of the worsening of our credit rating. That's more than a million a day on Nothing !


How much will NAMA cost over what it needs to ?

ejmaztec

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

You'd be better off just walking up to Brian Cowan and digging the fook outta him to be honest. The fists are mightier than the spoilt vote.

Judging by the state of his face now, it looks like he's been used as a punch-bag already, so further violence wouldn't make him change his attitude.

A 200 foot bungee jump using a 300 foot bungee cord is the only answer.

Aidric

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

Voting No to Lisbon should only be done if you feel it is the right thing to do, not to spite the Government and possibly ruin future relations with Europe.

Exactly. No doubt, however, you'll have plenty of ill informed goons opting for the spite vote.

Captain Furball

peasant wrote: »

...well here's an idea on how to possibly get one:

The Lisbon vote.
It's pretty clear that if it was a "no" vote again, Cowen and the governement would be finished ...mmmh, nice

It's also pretty clear that if it is a "no" vote again that the country will be marginalised within the EU and basically f0cked ...mmmh, not nice.

OK ..so convinced "no" voters will vote no anyway, but lots of potential yes voters are torn. They want to do the right thing for future of the country but don't want to give the current governement their seal of approval by proxy ...what are they supposed to do?

Well ...here's the deal:

If every "yes" voter votes "yes" but also alters their voting card by adding a hand written comment like "Cowen out" or "governement out" the governement will be in a right connundrum.
They might well get enough "yes" votes to carry the referendum ...but most of those Yes votes will be regarded as spoilt (because of the comment) and can't be counted.

So the tally will read someting like 40% "no" votes ...perfectly valid ones, perhaps another 10% perfectly valid "yes" votes and 50% spoilt "yes" votes.

Now I reckon that with 50% of the votes spoilt there surely is a way to nullify the referendum and just run it again ....after the governement has stepped down.


We win !

Vote no because they're going anyway soon enough.I've great confidence in irish people..............

Prof.Badass

I came in here expecting talk of a revolutioin.

Instead i got a mod telling me to vote yes to lisbon.

:rolleyes:

hullaballoo

I thought the figures were more like 400 billion a year?

In any event, Euro Kraut is right. If we ratify the Lisbon referendum, the EU might be able to help us out of our current predicament. That said, it's pretty clear that one way or another, there should be a general election before the end of the current government's term in office. We just need a few Greens/Independents to man up to tilt the balance against Cowen's government.

My name is URL

It'll cost alot more than usual if it was forced. What would any new government do that's different? Are there any viable alternatives to NAMA?

Everyone likes a rant but nobody bothers with trying to come up with ideas to actually change where Ireland is headed.

It's like replacing a manager of a shit football team.. the team will still be shit afterwards, and the new manager will be blamed again

Best way to bring about a revolution is by national strikes, but nobody wants that either

I say we become a socialist country and close our borders.. then give people a year to decide whether they want to be here or not.*

*not really, but it's as productive an idea as any other, when it's posted on a forum and no real action taken

Antar Bolaeisk

My name is URL wrote: »

I say we become a socialist country and close our borders.. then give people a year to decide whether they want to be here or not.

I vote for a dictator. We just need to get rid of him/her before they start showing any genocidal tendancies.

Turd Ferguson

funk-you wrote: »

How about bombarding every FF member with letters, emails, phone calls etc.

I'll vote YES if you leave office

Also let all the newspapers, radio/TV stations etc. know about it?

-Funk

That won't work because FF members and politicians in general don't give a flying fuck what happens to this county. They would rather a No vote and for them to keep their jobs than a Yes vote and them out of it.

peasant

hullaballoo wrote: »

If we ratify the Lisbon referendum, the EU might be able to help us out of our current predicament. That said, it's pretty clear that one way or another, there should be a general election before the end of the current government's term in office.

It's just that ratification of the Lisbon treaty becomes so much more probable/realistic if a "no" vote can't be seen as a protest against the current governement.

ejmaztec

People can vote no, if they feel the need, as long as it's not to spite Cowen. This would be crazy, given that most of the other party leaders are giving the same "vote yes" advice that he is.

cherryghost

NO... ON.... 24..... NO... ON.... 24

hullaballoo

Unfortunately, there's no way for the population to force a general election. Even a no vote for Lisbon would not necessarily mean a general election, and frankly, such a tack is far too risky for the future of Ireland in Europe that I cannot stress how much I disagree with it. I'm not overly pleased with the Lisbon treaty and what it does for our voice in Europe, but if that's the price we have to pay as a nation to keep afloat, I'm more than willing.

We can be very clever or very silly here. It would be clever to vote yes to Lisbon and to organise visits en masse to constituency offices of elected TDs letting them know that if they don't vote against the current government in the Dáil, their seat's gone and their career's over. Obviously, that would take numbers. If sufficient numbers cannot be garnered, maybe the government's mandate could be reaffirmed and we might have to face that a silent majority are happy with them.

A silly thing to do would be to vote no to Lisbon in a gamble to try to force a general election. If you're going to vote no, do it on the issues. If you're going to vote no on the issues, make sure you understand them.

If you don't understand the issues, vote neither yes nor no.


P.S. Minimum wage is never going to be €1.84 in this country unless deflation reaches Zimbabwean standards.

Aidric

hullaballoo wrote: »

P.S. Minimum wage is never going to be €1.84 in this country unless deflation reaches Zimbabwean standards.

These loony bin assertions are coming from the shady Coir group. I would point people to this Tribune article to quash such rubbish.

http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2009/sep/06/the-coir-question-whos-lying-to-us/

peasant

hullaballoo wrote: »

A silly thing to do would be to vote no to Lisbon in a gamble to try to force a general election.

actually ...the idea was to vote "Yes" for Lisbon but to spoil your vote.

I'm imagining that faced with 60-80% of spoilt yes votes the EU would put on enough pressure behind the scenes to a) remove the governement and b) have another referendum asap to get the yes vote unspoilt this time round.

The possibly fatal error of this idea of course lies in the percentages ...if only a few yes voters spoil their vote then the no campaign would win it ....you'd need (almost) everybody on the yes side to do it to have a chance of it succeeding and also convice the undecided ones to row in behind you.

hullaballoo

peasant wrote: »

actually ...the idea was to vote "Yes" for Lisbon but to spoil your vote.

I'm imagining that faced with 60-80% of spoilt yes votes the EU would put on enough pressure behind the scenes to a) remove the governement and b) have another referendum asap to get the yes vote unspoilt this time round.

The possibly fatal error of this idea of course lies in the percentages ...if only a few yes voters spoil their vote then the no campaign would win it ....you'd need (almost) everybody on the yes side to do it to have a chance of it succeeding and also convice the undecided ones to row in behind you.

I understand the idea, but given that pollsters in this country are selected by Government appointees, the fact that so many yes votes were spoiled would probably go unnoticed unreported.

Something worth looking into is spoiling no votes the way you suggest.

ejmaztec

What about a "vote of no confidence in the government" website, with various security measures to prove the accuracy of the input?

peasant

ejmaztec wrote: »

What about a "vote of no confidence in the government" website, with various security measures to prove the accuracy of the input?

not a bad idea

Antar Bolaeisk

Quite a good one in fact.

Surely there are enough of us techies litered about these boards to start something like that.

Sabre0001

You aren't giving the Government a seal of approval by voting yes (which was a problem the last time too!); voters gave the Government a seal of approval by voting them back in the last time there was a chance to get rid of them despite scandals and the country slipping in a bad way...

Mrmoe

Sabre0001 wrote: »

You aren't giving the Government a seal of approval by voting yes (which was a problem the last time too!); voters gave the Government a seal of approval by voting them back in the last time there was a chance to get rid of them despite scandals and the country slipping in a bad way...

That may not be the intention but the government will construe it that way because they are such a bunch of lowlifes.

Kevin Bacon

its been said already that voting no just to spite FF is a terrible reason to vote no. Yeah if there was another no vote then FF would surely be out no doubt about that. But then Enda Kenny and his bunch will just have to deal with the absolute sh*t storm that the EU will lay at our doorstep for going against them on this. And in my opinion things will get so much worse then they are now if the EU starts taking a disliking to us. Whether you like or not Ireland is dependent on the EU for funding and support.

Dyr

Antar Bolaeisk wrote: »

This is an absolutley fantastic idea, not only would it effectively screw Ireland's future involvement with Europe (maybe the effects won't be immediately noticeable or even particularly tangible but Europe will not look favourably on Ireland irregardless of the reasons, perceived or apparent, for voting no)
Voting No to Lisbon should only be done if you feel it is the right thing to do, not to spite the Government and possibly ruin future relations with Europe.

I though Europe would respect the need for unanimity on such matters, after all thats the safe guard they keep harping on about when it comes to the changes that lisbon will make. Are you saying they'll "respect" dissent and then screw the country that does'nt do as it's told?

General Zod

wudangclan wrote: »

'peasants' revolt?'

Pedant's revolt.

General Zod

ejmaztec wrote: »

What about a "vote of no confidence in the government" website, with various security measures to prove the accuracy of the input?

Would it automatically disregard your vote if you have posted uninformed nonsense about the Lisbon Treaty from your IP?

genericguy

I think we should all offer a yes vote in return for a general election.

NB - I'm voting yes, again, because i've bothered to read the crux of the treaty, and anyone who votes no to spite that shower of fat poxes is an idiot.

ejmaztec

General Zod wrote: »

Would it automatically disregard your vote if you have posted uninformed nonsense about the Lisbon Treaty from your IP?

No, that wouldn't count when you're sticking it to the government.

Homicidal_jesus

genericguy wrote: »

NB - I'm voting yes, again, because i've bothered to read the crux of the treaty, and anyone who votes no to spite that shower of fat poxes is an idiot.

here here

genericguy

Homicidal_jesus wrote: »

here here

what?

hullaballoo

genericguy wrote: »

what?

Homocidal_jesus would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

me-skywalker

Democracy = 862,415 Irish People holding up 731,000,000 in a brighter, more transparent more viable and efficent europe... Democracy?? Pfft!!

Mrmoe

me-skywalker wrote: »

Democracy = 862,415 Irish People holding up 731,000,000 in a brighter, more transparent more viable and efficent europe... Democracy?? Pfft!!

I am confused; when did the 731,000,0000 people of Europe get a direct vote on this? Maybe I was a sleep at the time???

me-skywalker

When we Irish farted on the face of Europe and still had our hands out looking for Jobs, security, assurances while providing little gratification? Does anyone actually think Ireland is sustainable on its own Economy? for that to happen the whole 4.5million whould have to be millionaires and continuously buying new house's and luxury cars and private villa's(in the west) and townhouses, and apartments......

An Fear Aniar

Mrmoe wrote: »

I am confused; when did the 731,000,0000 people of Europe get a direct vote on this? Maybe I was a sleep at the time???

The Lisbon Treaty was simply a rewrite of the Constitution that was already shot down by the French and the Dutch in 2005. It was rewritten to be "virtually incomprehensible" so as to avoid referendums wherever possible.

Don't believe me?

" Virtual incomprehensibilty has thus replaced simplicity as the key approach to EU reform. As for the changes now proposed to be made to the constitutional treaty, most are presentational changes that have no practical effect. They have simply been designed to enable certain heads of government to sell to their people the idea of ratification by parliamentary action rather than by referendum."
- Dr Garret FitzGerald, former Irish Taoiseach, Irish Times, 30 June 2007


"The difference between the original Constitution and the present Lisbon Treaty is one of approach, rather than content ...The proposals in the original constitutional treaty are practically unchanged. They have simply been dispersed through the old treaties in the form of amendments. Why this subtle change? Above all, to head off any threat of referenda by avoiding any form of constitutional vocabulary ... But lift the lid and look in the toolbox: all the same innovative and effective tools are there, just as they were carefully crafted by the European Convention."
- V.Giscard D'Estaing, former French President and Chairman of the Convention which drew up the EU Constitution, The Independent, London, 30 October 2007


"The substance of the constitution is preserved. That is a fact."
- German Chancellor Angela Merkel, speech in the European Parliament, 27 June 2007

.

Piste

It could be a good idea to get a massive campaign going whereby people send in postcards to the government demanding a general election if a yes vote is carried. If it garners enough media attention and enough pressure is put on the government would have no choice but to respond and we'd see them declare whether their loyalties are to the good of the country or if they're more concerned with protecting themselves. If they refused to dissolve the Dáil after Lisbon was carried there would be riots.

An Fear Aniar

Piste wrote: »

It could be a good idea to get a massive campaign going whereby people send in postcards to the government demanding a general election if a yes vote is carried.

It's not about FF, it's bigger than that. It's about whether we want a democratic EU or an EU that is heading down the road to dictatorship.

It's about whether the people are the bosses or the politicians boss the people.

.

Piste

Oh I know the Lisbon treaty is about the EU, not our own government and I wont be voting out of distaste for FF. This would be a system whereby we could use the Lisbon treaty as leverage to shunt them out.

Gummy Panda

My name is URL wrote: »

I say we become a socialist country and close our borders.. then give people a year to decide whether they want to be here or not.

I agree and bags being Stalin. Gummygrad sounds good or maybe Pandagrad.

Now during this year will we begin our social experiment and start a class war thus exterminating 10% of the population?