AAI Message - Athletics Ireland Announces John Foley as Interim CEO

IrishTrackFan

Tingle wrote: »

I spend more time posting on other topics on this board and post on a wide variety of topics including my hatred of golf to plyos to Ron Hill tights. I'm interested in this topic as are many people. What I am sick and tired of is the constant attacking of certain individuals to the point of thats what it seems to be all about. The poster IrishTrackFan also mentions these people but at least gives me the impression that yes they are a problem but we can move on if certain things happen. Its constructive as opposed to seeming to be a constant vendetta against Patsy and Liam



So what are these issues? How will we get over them? Follow IrishTrackFan's advice I'd say, take personal responsibility, use the mechanics in there through the democracy of the organisation and get better people in the committees if that is seen as the problem. Getting rid of Liam and Patsy, making AAI bankrupt so as to benefit the pocket of a former CEO and reducing funds to sport in general in Ireland won't do anything.



Alternatively, a strong CEO may get to these fundamental issues you have. On the face of it he is strong based on the fact he has worked in a senior management postition in a global company for nearly 20 years. He will be judged by his actions though. The same way his predecessors were and sadly they were not up to scratch at the end of the day as they are no longer in the job and didn't make any difference. Lot of pressure on John Foley to deliver. If he fails then maybe we do have a problem.

I'm new enough to the forum but from what I have seen the standard of contribution is high and there is an overwhelmingly positive approach and a wish to see the sport develop and fulfil its potential so if we disagree on a some personalities or issues sometimes it won't distort that postiive sense overall.
A quick point on the Coghlan issue - she was fired because she tried to stand up to the politicians and to expose what was going on, of that there should be no doubt. It's failure of a sort in that she didn't survive that (although that decision will be made by a judge in due course) but in fact as I implied in an earlier post her contribution will be seen in time to be significant and honourable. But her action will force the bad stuff out in the open and it will require the association to decide what type of board and executive it wants and that is progress.
The bad apples will have to be rooted out though. If you have no transparency and no trust, then you will not attract competent individuals to contribute, either as volunteers or as staff. Good people find better things to do - they build up their clubs, they coach, organise road races whatever. All those people are out there in clubs but they won't touch the national organisation because they can't/won't work a corrupt system and they value their good name. Eddie McDongah in DSD is a great example - got on the Board (executive it was called then I think) and saw what it involved, got off it and stuck to working at club level with great success. But never again went back to see what he could do nationally.
You could sit down for half an hour and come up with an alternative board that would be ten times better than what's there now from people at the grassroots level.
For Foley to be able to succeed he will need to get a better Board delivered in April, and with the support of a strong President he can put in place the systems that will enable us to achieve our potential.
If Doyle was here, would Proper have a better chance of get to the final in London? Would Derval's hurdling improve, would we have a couple of 5.50 vaulters. That's not to denigrate their coaches but we need world class professionals if we are to help world class athletes and none of that will happen when the primary concern of board members is expenses, trips and control of appointments.

thirtyfoot

FishnChips wrote: »

I don't have a personal vendetta against Liam or Patsy but the fact of the matter is that in conjunction with the Sports Council they are at the core of the problems that AAI are currently facing.
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Based on your posting history I think you do or at least have them on the brain. I'd say half of your posts have the word 'patsy' in it while I'd say 75% plus of your posts are along the general anti Patsy/Liam/ISC axis. Thats all I am basing it on. I don't know you so I can judge you but on what you post here.

FishnChips wrote: »

Do you think it was acceptable for the AAI board to sack the former CEO without good reason in a kangaroo court type situation or do you think they had good grounds to sack her?

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I don't know. I am not on the board of AAI or party to their thoughts (even with all the leaks). So I can't make judgement on that. What I try and make judgement on is what I see, hear and witness at first hand myself. Based on this I know its not all black and white. Its highly charged and divisive. People and sides will be giving their side of the story. Who do you believe. Thats a judgement call.

If it ever comes out that due course wasn't followed then I don't think it was appropriate to sack her.

FishnChips wrote: »

If you don't think it was acceptable for the board to make a potentially fatal decision like this (Liam and Patsy are President and Vice-President respectively after all) do you not think there is a MAJOR problem here with the type of people who are making decisions regarding the running of athletics in Ireland?

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Same answer as above. I don't know if due course was followed correctly so how can I comment. If it wasn't, then of course its a problem. See this is my point. Right now its opinion. We'll just be going around in circles. I prefer to focus on someone who can make a change right now. Let the court thing sort the other crap out.

FishnChips wrote: »

Since you seem to have knowledge of the previous CEOs not being 'up to scratch' could you explain WHY the most recent CEO was fired?

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Again, not on the board so don't know for certain why she was fired. In most cases people are fired as they aren't up to scratch. I assume this is why she was sacked.

I said she wasn't up to scratch as the sport off the track is in absolute turmoil as she was CEO in this time. If she was up the scratch then we would surely have progressed in the past year as opposed to regressed. At the end of the day it all may come out in the wash and what she did for the sport will be recognised. I believe if circumstances were different she may have been able to do a great job. I was a big fan of her in the job when I heard she got it last year.

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

For Foley to be able to succeed he will need to get a better Board delivered in April, and with the support of a strong President he can put in place the systems that will enable us to achieve our potential.
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Thats where the members like us come in I suppose. Based on how you explained it works that could be hard though to get changes through Congress. I wasn't aware the process was so onerous but thats democracy I suppose. If we don't do something or at least exercise our vote it'll be like all the people who complain about the Govt yet voted FF in the last election!

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

If Doyle was here, would Proper have a better chance of get to the final in London? Would Derval's hurdling improve, would we have a couple of 5.50 vaulters.

I think the answer to all those could be yes. I had a session with him a couple of years back. He didn't do or say much but it was simply 30 mins where we focused on a couple of things. Fixed a technical problem I had all my life in that short time. Not saying he is a miracle worker but he would have brought something to the table without a doubt.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by hunnymonster
Fish'n'chips, what exactly (i.e. not in "office politics/pettiness/incompetence/unprofessionalism" terms, but rather concrete examples/events) are the problems you perceive in AAI? I'm asking as a rank 'n file member, who doesn't know anything about the running of the organisation?

The sacking of the most recent CEO would be a prime example of that. It is very reflective of how the organisation is run as a whole i.e. without due/transparent processes, accountability, professionalism etc.

This has effects at all levels of the sport - from badly run domestic competitions to a Major Championship Team Manager slating the athletes he is supposed to be managing on an internet blog.

As IrishTrackFan said the primary concern of the AAI board is expenses, trips and control of appointments - they're not actually too concerned about the development of the sport. That's the basic problem.

Clum

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

This all seems very vague. I'm looking for more to the answer than 'removing the politicians' and 'putting the athletes first'.

If imposed as full time CEO what actual changes do you all want to see Foley implement? What can be done to make AAI a better organisation?

thirtyfoot

Clum wrote: »

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

This all seems very vague. I'm looking for more to the answer than 'removing the politicians' and 'putting the athletes first'.

If imposed as full time CEO what actual changes do you all want to see Foley implement? What can be done to make AAI a better organisation?

IrishTrackFans 3 points from an earlier post is a good start.

ChickenTikka

Clum wrote: »

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

I think that the processes by which various functions within the organisation are run need to be reviewed/updated to bring in line with good governance. For example, earlier threads asked how team managers for international teams are selected. Are they advertised? Are they hand-picked from the inner circle? Are they part of the decision-making committee who picks themselves to go? Same goes for coaches who get picked to go on internationals. Not saying its wrong for anyone that was picked, but its a conflict of interest if you are picking yourself. The process should be defined so as to avoid any suspicions of cronyism.

An audit committee that makes sure money is well spent, e.g. was the money spent on the online registration system well spent, was the money spent on the youth training camp this year well spent etc. Our structures should be such that they ensure good financial management - everything might be fine, or maybe its not - the rank and file don't know and can only speculate. I'd like to see accounts which list the income from every major event and the expenditure on every major event. e.g. how much did Berlin cost us, how much does National juvenile finals cost, National seniors, what sort of money is paid in expenses, how much comes in juvenile entry fees, how much comes in senior entry fees etc. I am sure all this stuff exists, but its not available to the rank and file. Making it available will help transparency and also help us all understand the real cost of running the sport. Maybe then we will be more critical ... or maybe we will be less critical.

A proper CV of people nominated to the various subcomittees and board so that when county boards are voting at Congress on membership, they get to make an informed choice on who they vote for. The way its done now seems to be that you get the nod from someone else who's involved in the sport for donkey's years that the person to vote for is so-and-so. If you're not involved for 20 years yourself, you only know the person's name and nothing else so have to take someone else's word for their merits. I'd love to see candidates having to publish on AAI website who they are, what they have done and what their opinions are on the development of the sport. Then you have an idea of what you are voting for.

A more uptodate communication system for important announcements. For example, our former CEO's departure was never announced as far as I know - we all read about it in the papers and we speculate did she resign, was she sacked etc.. Yet mundane announcments like the Ballyboghole 10k get onto the website very quickly. The delayed National league results are another example of this.

Fixture lists that don't change once announced - this year the National juvenile dates were changed at a month's notice to faciliate a juvenile international in which a handful of athletes were competing and inconveniencing 100s of athletes. Last year, a National juvenile fixture was changed supposedly cause it clashed with Cork City Sports. If we don't want these clashes, figure it out before announcing the fixtures.

A proper forum within AAI to submit any suggestions like above where you are confident they will be considered. Sometimes your phone calls to HQ are not even returned.

I could go on. Some of these are small things, easily fixed. Others may open a can of worms. But I think if the organisation can become more transparent, it will give more confidence to everyone that it is being well run.

RoyMcC

Excellent post Chicken, I hope our new CEO is taking notes. I hope he can get me accredited as a coach after 18 months of waiting

IrishTrackFan

Excellent post. Some comments interspersed below.

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I think that the processes by which various functions within the organisation are run need to be reviewed/updated to bring in line with good governance. For example, earlier threads asked how team managers for international teams are selected. Are they advertised? Are they hand-picked from the inner circle? Are they part of the decision-making committee who picks themselves to go? Same goes for coaches who get picked to go on internationals. Not saying its wrong for anyone that was picked, but its a conflict of interest if you are picking yourself. The process should be defined so as to avoid any suspicions of cronyism.
Transparency and visibility is the basis of good governance. At the last Congress a motion was passed that the Coaching and Development committee select coaches for teams. The Chair of High Performance ignores this however and team managers and coaches alike are chosen without any process that is visible to anyone but himself. For evidence compare his photo with 'Head Coach' Stephen Maguire on the Finn Valley Berlin blog with the published choice of the Coaching Committee of Paddy Fay for that role.

An audit committee that makes sure money is well spent, e.g. was the money spent on the online registration system well spent, was the money spent on the youth training camp this year well spent etc. Our structures should be such that they ensure good financial management - everything might be fine, or maybe its not - the rank and file don't know and can only speculate. I'd like to see accounts which list the income from every major event and the expenditure on every major event. e.g. how much did Berlin cost us, how much does National juvenile finals cost, National seniors, what sort of money is paid in expenses, how much comes in juvenile entry fees, how much comes in senior entry fees etc. I am sure all this stuff exists, but its not available to the rank and file. Making it available will help transparency and also help us all understand the real cost of running the sport. Maybe then we will be more critical ... or maybe we will be less critical.

That's pretty much in place - there is an operational plan for the year and a budget to match that. Monthly management accounts compare year to date versus budget and of course there is an independent audit at the end of the year. The accounts are presented to Congress. I am not sure that the operational plan is published but it should be.

A proper CV of people nominated to the various subcomittees and board so that when county boards are voting at Congress on membership, they get to make an informed choice on who they vote for. The way its done now seems to be that you get the nod from someone else who's involved in the sport for donkey's years that the person to vote for is so-and-so. If you're not involved for 20 years yourself, you only know the person's name and nothing else so have to take someone else's word for their merits. I'd love to see candidates having to publish on AAI website who they are, what they have done and what their opinions are on the development of the sport. Then you have an idea of what you are voting for.

This is a great idea but not a new one! The recent CEO proposed that this be done but as far as I know it wasn't taken up by the Board.

A more uptodate communication system for important announcements. For example, our former CEO's departure was never announced as far as I know - we all read about it in the papers and we speculate did she resign, was she sacked etc.. Yet mundane announcments like the Ballyboghole 10k get onto the website very quickly. The delayed National league results are another example of this.

Hard to criticise regarding the CEO announcement given the controvery around that. There may have been legal constraints on that. There is a problem with the current competition system which struggles to get results out in a format that is meaningful for websites and indeed the media generally.

Fixture lists that don't change once announced - this year the National juvenile dates were changed at a month's notice to faciliate a juvenile international in which a handful of athletes were competing and inconveniencing 100s of athletes. Last year, a National juvenile fixture was changed supposedly cause it clashed with Cork City Sports. If we don't want these clashes, figure it out before announcing the fixtures.

Shouldn't happen but very very difficult - there is a lot of careful work done by the relevant committees to coordinate the calendar but it is impossible to get it perfect every time.

A proper forum within AAI to submit any suggestions like above where you are confident they will be considered. Sometimes your phone calls to HQ are not even returned.

There is no culture at the Board and also perhaps within the staff that values rank and file member input.

I could go on. Some of these are small things, easily fixed. Others may open a can of worms. But I think if the organisation can become more transparent, it will give more confidence to everyone that it is being well run.

Fish'n'Chips

Originally posted by Tingle
Again, not on the board so don't know for certain why she was fired. In most cases people are fired as they aren't up to scratch. I assume this is why she was sacked.

I said she wasn't up to scratch as the sport off the track is in absolute turmoil as she was CEO in this time. If she was up the scratch then we would surely have progressed in the past year as opposed to regressed. At the end of the day it all may come out in the wash and what she did for the sport will be recognised. I believe if circumstances were different she may have been able to do a great job. I was a big fan of her in the job when I heard she got it last year.

Tingle,
I think this is the sort of picture the AAI board and Sports Council want to paint and to a certain degree if a person who has a fairly decent knowledge of the situation and a good athletics man like yourself is willing to buy into it then they have succeeded to a certain degree.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what does 'up to scratch' specifically mean?

It has never been explicitly stated WHY the CEO was fired. I'd put money on it that there are members of the AAI board who view this board so perhaps they could explain it? All that has been spun is that there has been internal turmoil, splits, infighting, funding withheld, massive legal bills etc. and the innuendo that it MUST HAVE been the CEO's fault otherwise why would they be forcing her out? The classic is that it is 'it is nothing personal but for the good of the sport'. They're basing it on the principle of no smoke without fire which a lot of people have been taken in by. The Sports Council have ruled the AAI board by fear and as a result have chosen to take the course of action which has landed them in the High Court.

IrishTrackFan

FishnChips wrote: »

Tingle,
I think this is the sort of picture the AAI board and Sports Council want to paint and to a certain degree if a person who has a fairly decent knowledge of the situation and a good athletics man like yourself is willing to buy into it then they have succeeded to a certain degree.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what does 'up to scratch' specifically mean?

It has never been explicitly stated WHY the CEO was fired. I'd put money on it that there are members of the AAI board who view this board so perhaps they could explain it? All that has been spun is that there has been internal turmoil, splits, infighting, funding withheld, massive legal bills etc. and the innuendo that it MUST HAVE been the CEO's fault otherwise why would they be forcing her out? The classic is that it is 'it is nothing personal but for the good of the sport'. They're basing it on the principle of no smoke without fire which a lot of people have been taken in by. The Sports Council have ruled the AAI board by fear and as a result have chosen to take the course of action which has landed them in the High Court.

Fish'n'Chips: the music will stop at the High Court and the CEO will have her day then to tell the story. I agree with you regarding the underlying problems but it is impossible for outsiders to know the full details and I suspect that even board members don't have the full story. The spinning and the newspaper leaks will mean nothing when the judge's gavel sounds. So my advice is to chill, the truth will come out then if not before and like you I believe that the truth will show that a great injustice has been done to a competent and passionate CEO who happened to be in the wrong place (successor to Hackett who the ISC Chairman was strongly associated with, and also putting in place HP structures and people while the ISC and the HP Chair were planning to move HP out of AAI) at the wrong time.
But this is not the place to continually trawl over all this - as I say the High Court will do that and the Association will benefit - sometimes the best lessons are the most painful ones to learn and I suspect it will be very difficult for the Association when it happens but hopefully it will enable us to move past 30 years of political infighting amongst incompetent people who believe the sport is there to serve their interests.
So if you are in a club, get involved, push for change, and make a difference.

IrishTrackFan

In the interest of staying positive and because it is an interest of mine I would like to get people's views on coaching, and I suppose coaching in Ireland in particular.
I have seldom heard coaches say positive things about each other in many years of involvement in the sport. And because there are so many variables in the coaching area it is impossible to rebut a lot of these comments other than to ask people to stay positive.
For instance, how do you define a good coach? You could argue that the athlete makes the coach in many cases.
I am delighted to see so many coaching courses being made available by AAI and I would say for young kids and for beginners the courses deliver good results. But I am not sure that the higher level coaches being qualified at level two and three really comprise a consistent level of capability as a consequence of their completing those courses. Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?
Which brings you back to what constitutes a proven coach?
Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).
And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

helpisontheway

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

In the interest of staying positive and because it is an interest of mine I would like to get people's views on coaching, and I suppose coaching in Ireland in particular.
I have seldom heard coaches say positive things about each other in many years of involvement in the sport. And because there are so many variables in the coaching area it is impossible to rebut a lot of these comments other than to ask people to stay positive.
For instance, how do you define a good coach? You could argue that the athlete makes the coach in many cases.
I am delighted to see so many coaching courses being made available by AAI and I would say for young kids and for beginners the courses deliver good results. But I am not sure that the higher level coaches being qualified at level two and three really comprise a consistent level of capability as a consequence of their completing those courses. Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?
Which brings you back to what constitutes a proven coach?
Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).
And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

This could nearly do with a thread of its own!;)
I wont even attempt to make points on everything above as there is alot there to be discussed.
IMO the coaching structure in Ireland is poor overall.There are some fantastic coaches in the country but few and far between.You could nearly break down the type of coaches in the country to the following-
1.Parents of children-Delighted to have them of course but alot of the time they have little experience of the sport and more often or not will dissapear when their kids do.
2.The Old Timers-The really old style coaching which alot of the time makes no sense but because they have been involved in athletics for 60 years they must know what they are doing.
3.Ex athletes-The new generation who are willing to learn most of the time for the love of the sport.
4.The Ego's-Coaches who know what they are talking about but let their ego's get in the way.In general these are the guys i find moan and moan about coaching etc but never actually do anything about it.
5.The Pretenders-They really do far more organising than actual coaching.
5.The Pro's-They are few and far between but the ones we have are excellent.To name a few Brid Golden,Eddie McDonagh,John Sheehan.Im sure others will throw a few more names on there.

thirtyfoot

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?

This for me is a definite. Practical on the job coaching is the best way to do this. A mentor program would be a great idea. I availed of a couple of mentors in a small way last season. I hope to use these guys (they don't know they are mentors!) even more so this season as I made some stupid mistakes as a coach and wiser head would have helped. You can't beat experience and many times to get experince you need to make mistakes. Obviously having the technical or scientific knowledge is crucial but experience of the many facets of coaching is invaluable.

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).

Don't know much about the wider club coaching element, but I have witnessed the squad sessions and these are great. I don't see too many club coaches with the kids at these events so maybe if that was more prevalent it would act as a workshop for coaches as well as a squad session for kids. I'd imagine at younger ages when there are more numbers that program centred is the way forward.

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

The national coaches setup isn't working for most events. I don't know the event coaches for my events. I probably know them but don't realise they are the national coaches. Should they be great coaches or facilitators. Right now they probably need better organisation so I'd say an organiser who can pull in the right coaches when needed. Squad sessions for athletes >20 years old are non-existent in most events. Its up to individuals to organise. Ciaran McDonagh did a squad session for sprints/jumps in Sligo recently. Not officially with AAI AFAIK. €5 charge to cover the track rental. No crap, no politics just passing on his wealth of knowlegde to kids and coaches.

There is no direction, no leadership in this area. A Dir of Athletics is sorely needed.