AAI Message - Athletics Ireland Announces John Foley as Interim CEO

--amadeus-- · 09-09-2009 4:10pm #1

Athletics Ireland Announces John Foley as Interim CEO

Athletics Ireland has announced John Foley as interim CEO. Foley is a former US track scholarship athlete at McNeese State University.

The Limerick born interim CEO was a highly regarded middle-distance runner back in the 1970s when he competed for Limerick Athletic Club, before going Stateside in 1972.

The Limerick man has wide experience at senior management level.

Good move, bad move?

If they keep sending a couple of releases a day I might round them into a weekly digest

Woddle · 09-09-2009 4:14pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Good move, bad move?

If they keep sending a couple of releases a day I might round them into a weekly digest

I think they should be all in the same thread, easier to find. Great service though so thanks.

hunnymonster · 09-09-2009 4:18pm

yeah same thread sounds good. we can always update title to reflect the most recent item on the agenda.

thirtyfoot · 09-09-2009 4:46pm

Although some of these releases will be pretty big talking points, like this one! I don't imagine there will be too many now as there is so little going on. But yes good service. There probably would be a couple of hundred press releases from AAI in a year and most will only be footnotes etc in articles by the athletics journos. Run Ireland do show the full release too which is good. But, by and large if you could put them up on the forum here that would be great as readers will be getting them even before they are on the AI website or in the printed media.

thirtyfoot · 09-09-2009 5:05pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Good move, bad move?

Anyone from athletics who has heard about this is excited about it. He will hopefully steady the ship and get the organisation working.

But we have had this before. Someone comes in and we all are happy and excited about it. Over time though, and particularly if he attempts to root out the issues, the negative wasters and empire builders will not be happy and will start causing issues and hassle. This will have happened with Brendan Hackett and Mary Coghlan. We were all positive yet the board/committees or whoever would have taken them on and eventually forced them out by different means in each case.

Will they be able to do the same to John Foley. No offence to his predecessors, but this lad is probably a different animal. First and foremost a business man. CEO of Waterford Cyrstal for nearly a decade he will be well used to boardroom scuffles and people putting obstacles towards change, union strife, job losses, company going under etc etc . He will have been through that company in interesting times and should be well used to what the AAI and its quirks may throw at him.

Also, its a cliche I know, but he is an athletics man. It does count. Also, for me age and experience is important in this job. The fact that he is a man counts too. Not that I think it matters but in the eyes of the dinosaurs or various clowns who are putting up obstacles, a 50 something year old man probably carries more weight in their eyes than some 'upstart young wan'. If he can back up it up with actions and a vision (even until his stint is over) then we'll be flying.

It'll be interesting to see how it pans out and whether we have finally found our man. I'm excited about it and have more hope now than I have had in a long time.

Irishathlete_1 · 09-09-2009 5:18pm

Does anyone know how long 'interim' is? This will determine a lot. If he is there for 6 months, he will achieve little to nothing.

If, As I suggested on here many months ago (who knows, maybe people do take notice!), he is being appointed on an interim basis to recruit a young driven CEO and he will stay on as Chairman of the Board (or President or similar), then this could very well signal exciting times.

I hope he can make the changes needed, but I think it will take a lot more then one man to do it. Fingers crossed though.

Reaganomical · 09-09-2009 5:25pm

yeah, it's an interesting one - bit of a coup for AAI. He's well used to a fight and dealing with competing interests, especially given the last two years or so with WW.

Plus, as a former head of Waterford Wedgwood, he should probably have a good working relationship with Martin Cullen, the Minister for Sport, (him being a Waterford TD)....will this lead to a better relationship between the Government and the AAI?

thirtyfoot · 09-09-2009 6:17pm

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

Does anyone know how long 'interim' is? This will determine a lot. If he is there for 6 months, he will achieve little to nothing.

If, As I suggested on here many months ago (who knows, maybe people do take notice!), he is being appointed on an interim basis to recruit a young driven CEO and he will stay on as Chairman of the Board (or President or similar), then this could very well signal exciting times.

I hope he can make the changes needed, but I think it will take a lot more then one man to do it. Fingers crossed though.

Interim is probably until the shenanigans in the High Court are finished, so who knows. Right now, I wouldn't mind if interim became fulltime. He is young enough and driven enough to take the job forward, on the face of it at least. There is no reason why he wouldn't be a permanent CEO if it worked out.

Yes, it will take more than one man, but there are enough good people within our organisation and it may just take one man to stand up to the bad people and allow the good people move forward. If he can make some very subtle changes in certain areas then it could get the ball rolling. A change of mindset is one thing and a guy with his background and history will likely do this just by presence alone.

This guy is a real CEO, as in he has done it in the real world.

Kiptanui · 09-09-2009 9:10pm

Irishathlete_1 wrote: »

Does anyone know how long 'interim' is? This will determine a lot. If he is there for 6 months, he will achieve little to nothing.

If, As I suggested on here many months ago (who knows, maybe people do take notice!), he is being appointed on an interim basis to recruit a young driven CEO and he will stay on as Chairman of the Board (or President or similar), then this could very well signal exciting times.

I agree with Tingle, I'd love to see him remain full time. A young driven CEO?
There are no such candidates at the moment. We need a CEO who has been a CEO in the real world, not someone punching above their weight. Names have been bandied about this site before and none of the irish people mentioned were up to the job. We need a businessman, not a politician!!

I'm delighted, was away for the last week and only heard of this today!!

Jackie_Dazzler · 09-09-2009 11:41pm

We want Doyler

thirtyfoot · 10-09-2009 8:47am

Jackie_Dazzler wrote: »

We want Doyler

Doyler would be a brutal CEO but would have been a brillant director of athletics - huge difference.

myflipflops · 10-09-2009 10:39am

Kiptanui wrote: »

I agree with Tingle, I'd love to see him remain full time. A young driven CEO?
There are no such candidates at the moment. We need a CEO who has been a CEO in the real world, not someone punching above their weight. Names have been bandied about this site before and none of the irish people mentioned were up to the job. We need a businessman, not a politician!!

I'm delighted, was away for the last week and only heard of this today!!

I agree with this. A real business leader with an inderstanding of athletics is needed, not the other way around. Guys who runs majors business organisation know what back stabbing dinosaus look like, know they are detrimental and know how to deal with them.

On another point, excuse my ignorance but - who is Doyler?

IrishTrackFan · 10-09-2009 11:01am

Tingle wrote: »

Interim is probably until the shenanigans in the High Court are finished, so who knows. Right now, I wouldn't mind if interim became fulltime. He is young enough and driven enough to take the job forward, on the face of it at least. There is no reason why he wouldn't be a permanent CEO if it worked out.

Yes, it will take more than one man, but there are enough good people within our organisation and it may just take one man to stand up to the bad people and allow the good people move forward. If he can make some very subtle changes in certain areas then it could get the ball rolling. A change of mindset is one thing and a guy with his background and history will likely do this just by presence alone.

This guy is a real CEO, as in he has done it in the real world.

Interim means 3 months I understand. Not enough time to make a real difference but hopefully there is an interest there in taking it on full time since it is vital that the next CEO is seen to have no part in the political infighting that has been going on for too long now.
He will have to deal with three key areas in my opinion if we are to begin to realise the potential that exists in clubs throughout the country. First of all he will have to look at the staff where there are some very serious issues, ranging from incompetence to multiple hat-wearing (volunteer on one occasion, staff on the next). There is much work needed to implement processes and procedures that deliver transparency and accountability for taxpayers and members money.
The board will have to be educated to understand their role (and the current Constitution/Memos&Arts is unfortunately ambiguous on this) which should be to set strategy and oversee and review the implementation of same in areas where there are professional staff employed to deliver services. (so for example, marketing should be left to the marketing professional - one prominent volunteer wanted the new AAI logo to go to Congress for approval!). Of course in several areas - senior and juvenile competition come to mind - the Board committees are vital to the deliver of what is a labour intensive activity that would never be affordable professionally.
The third challenge lies in a constructive but firm engagement with the Sports Council to get agreed protocols in place for the degree of involvement they should have in our sport. It amazes me that this is not already in place as a matter of course for all NGBs but we cannot progress the professional side of the organisation if the ISC has a veto on all apppointments, has its own agenda (last summers secret High Performance Agency proposal for instance, which lies at the heart of so much of the subsequent difficulties experienced in AAI) and attempts to control the NGB through appointments of its making in order to force through that agenda.

thirtyfoot · 10-09-2009 11:27am

pwhite587 wrote: »

On another point, excuse my ignorance but - who is Doyler?

Paul Doyle. Was in line for the Dir of Athletics job but his selection was veteod by ISC.

He is coach to several Olympic medalists and agent/manager to multiple Olympic/World champs.

http://www.doylemanagement.com/

What would we want having a clown like this looking after our athletes:rolleyes: He manages half of our top elites as is anyway!

aoa321 · 10-09-2009 11:36am

I am familiar with John's tenure in Waterford Crystal ... good luck with that lads !!

IrishTrackFan · 10-09-2009 11:39am

Tingle wrote: »

Paul Doyle. Was in line for the Dir of Athletics job but his selection was veteod by ISC.

He is coach to several Olympic medalists and agent/manager to multiple Olympic/World champs.

http://www.doylemanagement.com/

What would we want having a clown like this looking after our athletes:rolleyes: He manages half of our top elites as is anyway!

And what has since become somewhat clearer is that he didn't fit into the McGonagle/Treacy plan to move HP athletics to a proposed new High Performance Agency. That got turned down by the Department luckily otherwise McGonagle would now be our full time HP guru - there'd be no end to the whispering in the ears of prominent Clonliffe athletes!

Hard Worker · 10-09-2009 11:39am

A few people are moaning already.

myflipflops · 10-09-2009 11:42am

Tingle wrote: »

Paul Doyle. Was in line for the Dir of Athletics job but his selection was veteod by ISC.

He is coach to several Olympic medalists and agent/manager to multiple Olympic/World champs.

http://www.doylemanagement.com/

What would we want having a clown like this looking after our athletes:rolleyes: He manages half of our top elites as is anyway!

Wow, never realised he was in the frame. How the f**k did he get let get away??

I thought you were going to tell me 'Doyler' was guy who coached the Meath under 11 relay team to the Mosneys finals and is a great bloke altogether!!

eltuerto · 10-09-2009 5:01pm

Good points IRISHTRACKFAN.

For any person to suceed as CEO in AAI the current make up of the AAI viz County Boards and constant meddling and interference that goes on HAS to stop.
The question is can anyone appointed as CEO do this??? And the answer is NO. Therefore this reform HAS to come from ISC. We (and we are all parts of AAI) have demonstrated over the years that we cannot stop the people (and we all know who they are) that have blighted our sport for years.

These people have never wanted a CEO and that is going back to Eamon's time. They are still there and still have huge influence. Get shot of the mechanics they use to wield power and maybe there will be a chance otherwise... same old

IrishTrackFan · 10-09-2009 9:17pm

eltuerto wrote: »

Good points IRISHTRACKFAN.

For any person to suceed as CEO in AAI the current make up of the AAI viz County Boards and constant meddling and interference that goes on HAS to stop.
The question is can anyone appointed as CEO do this??? And the answer is NO. Therefore this reform HAS to come from ISC. We (and we are all parts of AAI) have demonstrated over the years that we cannot stop the people (and we all know who they are) that have blighted our sport for years.

These people have never wanted a CEO and that is going back to Eamon's time. They are still there and still have huge influence. Get shot of the mechanics they use to wield power and maybe there will be a chance otherwise... same old

While I agree witb the comment regarding the history and the unfortunate collection of national administrators that we have all had to endure, I don't agree that the ISC are the only way out of this.

The way forward will take time and it will require more than one individual to effect real change. In a perverse way, the shenanigans over the past two CEOs have moved the situation forward albeit painfully, to the point where people are clear that a strong independent CEO is needed and that the leadership should come from that person rather than the completely inadequate board that we have. Now of course the troublemakers are still in the powerful positions so who knows how that will pan out but hopefully they will find it difficult to undermine Foley in the way that was done to Coghlan from the day she started.
Apart from the CEO, the association needs to stand up to the bullies, expose their corruption and through their county board, the many good individuals doing all the the good work in clubs need to support nominations for competent people to be appointed to the Board.

The other point that people need to realise is that the ISC is part of the problem rather than the solution. The two key individuals in that organisation do not have the skills or experience to carry out their roles - any psychometric testing would have ruled them out from day one - and AAI is by no means the only NGB suffering from their controlling methods. Ask yourself the question why do the GUI, FAI, IRFU and GAA not have any input into their high performance programmes from the ISC - the answer is that their financial independence enables them to say thanks but no thanks, and that leaves ourselves, the boxers and a few others to be interfered with by people with no track record in this area. So, tax payers money is used to force us to fit in with their completely inadequate vision of how to deliver high performance (they dont care at all about anything mundane like participation strategy, club development, competition structures, coaching etc etc) and the result is that they insist on Max Jones or Alan Storey when we want Paul Doyle or Robert Korzenovsky. There is only one legitimate question for high performance and that is what do the elite athletes need and I'd suggest there is no contest as between the choices above, yet the ISC vetoed Doyle because it would have upset the plans for a High Performance Agency with athletics run full time by Patsy.
So, it suits the ISC that we have such inadequate leadership which believes that they must not be questioned on any matter (see Hennessy's performance in front of the Oireachtais committee on U Tube if you want to see how pathetic that looks in reality).
We wouldn't be in the mess we're in if the ISC had any integrity and competence.

Fish'n'Chips · 10-09-2009 10:22pm

Originally posted by IrishTrackFan
the ISC vetoed Doyle because it would have upset the plans for a High Performance Agency with athletics run full time by Patsy.

I agree. The fact that the ISC would sooner have Patsy McGonagle run the High Performance end of things ahead of Paul Doyle just about says it all about how controlling they want to be and/or incompetent they are.

This is also the same ISC who by influencing the board to sack Coghlan (a person who tried to make AAI more professional than ever) are causing the organisation to accrue massive legal costs which could yet drive the association into financial ruin. They'd rather have a clown like Hennessy (who they can control) in charge than have anything resembling a professional organisation with transparent processes!

With any luck An Bord Snip will be taking a long hard look at the ISC.

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 8:25am

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

While I agree witb the comment regarding the history and the unfortunate collection of national administrators that we have all had to endure, I don't agree that the ISC are the only way out of this.

The way forward will take time and it will require more than one individual to effect real change. In a perverse way, the shenanigans over the past two CEOs have moved the situation forward albeit painfully, to the point where people are clear that a strong independent CEO is needed and that the leadership should come from that person rather than the completely inadequate board that we have. Now of course the troublemakers are still in the powerful positions so who knows how that will pan out but hopefully they will find it difficult to undermine Foley in the way that was done to Coghlan from the day she started.
Apart from the CEO, the association needs to stand up to the bullies, expose their corruption and through their county board, the many good individuals doing all the the good work in clubs need to support nominations for competent people to be appointed to the Board.

The other point that people need to realise is that the ISC is part of the problem rather than the solution. The two key individuals in that organisation do not have the skills or experience to carry out their roles - any psychometric testing would have ruled them out from day one - and AAI is by no means the only NGB suffering from their controlling methods. Ask yourself the question why do the GUI, FAI, IRFU and GAA not have any input into their high performance programmes from the ISC - the answer is that their financial independence enables them to say thanks but no thanks, and that leaves ourselves, the boxers and a few others to be interfered with by people with no track record in this area. So, tax payers money is used to force us to fit in with their completely inadequate vision of how to deliver high performance (they dont care at all about anything mundane like participation strategy, club development, competition structures, coaching etc etc) and the result is that they insist on Max Jones or Alan Storey when we want Paul Doyle or Robert Korzenovsky. There is only one legitimate question for high performance and that is what do the elite athletes need and I'd suggest there is no contest as between the choices above, yet the ISC vetoed Doyle because it would have upset the plans for a High Performance Agency with athletics run full time by Patsy.
So, it suits the ISC that we have such inadequate leadership which believes that they must not be questioned on any matter (see Hennessy's performance in front of the Oireachtais committee on U Tube if you want to see how pathetic that looks in reality).
We wouldn't be in the mess we're in if the ISC had any integrity and competence.

I'm on the same line of thinking as yourself on all of this.

One point I would make though is that Liam Hennessy is a volunteer. He is also not a bad person. I believe he has the sport's interests at his heart. He may be in above his head regarding the Oireactais stuff or handling the situations he has encountered but he is a good guy and I would never class him as one of the bad guys or blockers.

I agree with you regarding the clubs and people in their clubs putting forward nominations of competent people. Eltuerto speaks of change never been able to happen. Of course it can and if we follow your suggestion and we all take individual responsibility we can make a change. I may be naive in thinking that but logically if good people are nominated and the professional executive can be directed better then that is a good way to move on.

Does anyone know what the process is for Congress and how nominations through county boards etc happens, is it a minefield? Congress is next year isn't it?

deise4ever · 11-09-2009 9:10am

Having worked with John Foley, I know he has the drive, determination, passion and personality to bring big changes to the Athletics Association. Very lucky to get him.

IrishTrackFan · 11-09-2009 9:50am

Tingle wrote: »

I'm on the same line of thinking as yourself on all of this.

One point I would make though is that Liam Hennessy is a volunteer. He is also not a bad person. I believe he has the sport's interests at his heart. He may be in above his head regarding the Oireactais stuff or handling the situations he has encountered but he is a good guy and I would never class him as one of the bad guys or blockers.

I agree with you regarding the clubs and people in their clubs putting forward nominations of competent people. Eltuerto speaks of change never been able to happen. Of course it can and if we follow your suggestion and we all take individual responsibility we can make a change. I may be naive in thinking that but logically if good people are nominated and the professional executive can be directed better then that is a good way to move on.

Does anyone know what the process is for Congress and how nominations through county boards etc happens, is it a minefield? Congress is next year isn't it?

Congress is in Sligo next April. County Boards (along with the Board and Provinces) send voting delegates, with the number based on their numerical strength as measured by registrations. Dublin, Meath and Cork have largest voting blocs around 30 each. Counties decide on nominations etc around January in time to get them into the Board I think its 60 days ahead of the Congress date.
County Boards I think each club has 2 delegates/votes plus the officers of the co. board have a vote. So, you need to get your club to agree on what it wants, get those proposals to the County Board, get your 2 delegates to do the proposing and seconding an dlobby other clubs to support you. In the case of the counties I mentioned earlier, if your proposal is accepted you can take it to Congress with 30 or so votes mandated to support it from your county (not sure all counties operate a whip in this way).
On Hennessy, would have agreed with you before the current turmoil but his behaviour has been unacceptable on a personal and professional level. He was on the interview panel that proposed Coghlan for CEO, he was President of the Board that unanimously endorsed her yet he folded the instant the Sports Council told him to fire her. He also supported Doyle for DoA until the Sports Council told him to stop that and sure enough he acquiesced. And you do have to wonder how he managed to stay on the board for 30 years if he's as innocent as pretends?

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 11:41am

Originally posted by Tingle
One point I would make though is that Liam Hennessy is a volunteer. He is also not a bad person. I believe he has the sport's interests at his heart. He may be in above his head regarding the Oireactais stuff or handling the situations he has encountered but he is a good guy and I would never class him as one of the bad guys or blockers.

Is that not a little bit like saying "I know this Garda, he's a nice fella, he was once in a situation before where he saw a woman being mugged on the street but he decided to watch and do nothing about - but he's not a bad person"?

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 12:33pm

FishnChips wrote: »

Is that not a little bit like saying "I know this Garda, he's a nice fella, he was once in a situation before where he saw a woman being mugged on the street but he decided to watch and do nothing about - but he's not a bad person"?

No I don't think so. Liam Hennessy in my opinion believes what he was doing was for the betterment of the sport ( a garda in that case would know standing back was wrong). Thats my opinion based on knowing the guy in a purely athletic, non-political environment. I may not be aware of the ins and outs and things that happened so all I can base it on is instinct. I'm tired of listening to people with agendas, grudges and axes to grind. You seem to have an axe to grind and want the AAI to go bankrupt and Bord Snip to reduce the ISC coffers. I can't understand that logic.

I may be wrong about Liam Hennessy but I am not interested in being convinced otherwise until I see and experience what he apparently is really like myself, first hand and won't base opinions from anonymous postings on a chatboard. Also, right now I am more interested in seeing what John Foley can do. Its good times. I am happy to move on even if its in blissfill ignorance.

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 12:52pm

Originally posted by Tingle
I am happy to move on even if its in blissfill ignorance.

If that is the case why do you spend such a large portion of your time posting on a topic which you seem to have a lot of interest in and a decent amount of knowledge of and then when you are challenged or someone doesn't agree with you you say 'I'm sick and tired of this'?

It's well and good to say 'let's move on' and brush over the fundamental issues which are holding athletics back in this country but the same sticking points will always be reached and it won't matter who the CEO is until these issues are addressed and resolved.

If it sounds like I have an axe to grind I apologise - I'm just trying to set the record straight as there is quite a large amount of misinformation on this board about the AAI/ISC situation.

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 1:34pm

FishnChips wrote: »

If that is the case why do you spend such a large portion of your time posting on a topic which you seem to have a lot of interest in and a decent amount of knowledge of and then when you are challenged or someone doesn't agree with you you say 'I'm sick and tired of this'?

I spend more time posting on other topics on this board and post on a wide variety of topics including my hatred of golf to plyos to Ron Hill tights. I'm interested in this topic as are many people. What I am sick and tired of is the constant attacking of certain individuals to the point of thats what it seems to be all about. The poster IrishTrackFan also mentions these people but at least gives me the impression that yes they are a problem but we can move on if certain things happen. Its constructive as opposed to seeming to be a constant vendetta against Patsy and Liam

FishnChips wrote: »

It's well and good to say 'let's move on' and brush over the fundamental issues which are holding athletics back in this country but the same sticking points will always be reached and it won't matter who the CEO is until these issues are addressed and resolved.

So what are these issues? How will we get over them? Follow IrishTrackFan's advice I'd say, take personal responsibility, use the mechanics in there through the democracy of the organisation and get better people in the committees if that is seen as the problem. Getting rid of Liam and Patsy, making AAI bankrupt so as to benefit the pocket of a former CEO and reducing funds to sport in general in Ireland won't do anything.

Alternatively, a strong CEO may get to these fundamental issues you have. On the face of it he is strong based on the fact he has worked in a senior management postition in a global company for nearly 20 years. He will be judged by his actions though. The same way his predecessors were and sadly they were not up to scratch at the end of the day as they are no longer in the job and didn't make any difference. Lot of pressure on John Foley to deliver. If he fails then maybe we do have a problem.

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 2:17pm

Originally posted by Tingle
Getting rid of Liam and Patsy, making AAI bankrupt so as to benefit the pocket of a former CEO and reducing funds to sport in general in Ireland won't do anything.

I don't have a personal vendetta against Liam or Patsy but the fact of the matter is that in conjunction with the Sports Council they are at the core of the problems that AAI are currently facing. If they were not involved in running athletics in this country the sport would be a lot better off. The office politics/pettiness/incompetence/unprofessionalism would be easy to sort out if there was a strong united leadership with no conflicts of interest. That does not exist with Liam Hennessy and Patsy McGonagle at the head of the AAI leadership.

Do you think it was acceptable for the AAI board to sack the former CEO without good reason in a kangaroo court type situation or do you think they had good grounds to sack her?

If you don't think it was acceptable for the board to make a potentially fatal decision like this (Liam and Patsy are President and Vice-President respectively after all) do you not think there is a MAJOR problem here with the type of people who are making decisions regarding the running of athletics in Ireland?

Since you seem to have knowledge of the previous CEOs not being 'up to scratch' could you explain WHY the most recent CEO was fired?

If you really want to try to unravel the current mess I think giving clear answers to the above questions would be a good start.

hunnymonster · 11-09-2009 2:22pm

Fish'n'chips, what exactly (i.e. not in "office politics/pettiness/incompetence/unprofessionalism" terms, but rather concrete examples/events) are the problems you perceive in AAI? I'm asking as a rank 'n file member, who doesn't know anything about the running of the organisation?

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 2:26pm

Originally posted by Tingle
Liam Hennessy in my opinion believes what he was doing was for the betterment of the sport

Liam Hennessy did what John Treacy and Ossie Kilkenny told him to do.

IrishTrackFan · 11-09-2009 2:26pm

Tingle wrote: »

I spend more time posting on other topics on this board and post on a wide variety of topics including my hatred of golf to plyos to Ron Hill tights. I'm interested in this topic as are many people. What I am sick and tired of is the constant attacking of certain individuals to the point of thats what it seems to be all about. The poster IrishTrackFan also mentions these people but at least gives me the impression that yes they are a problem but we can move on if certain things happen. Its constructive as opposed to seeming to be a constant vendetta against Patsy and Liam

So what are these issues? How will we get over them? Follow IrishTrackFan's advice I'd say, take personal responsibility, use the mechanics in there through the democracy of the organisation and get better people in the committees if that is seen as the problem. Getting rid of Liam and Patsy, making AAI bankrupt so as to benefit the pocket of a former CEO and reducing funds to sport in general in Ireland won't do anything.

Alternatively, a strong CEO may get to these fundamental issues you have. On the face of it he is strong based on the fact he has worked in a senior management postition in a global company for nearly 20 years. He will be judged by his actions though. The same way his predecessors were and sadly they were not up to scratch at the end of the day as they are no longer in the job and didn't make any difference. Lot of pressure on John Foley to deliver. If he fails then maybe we do have a problem.

I'm new enough to the forum but from what I have seen the standard of contribution is high and there is an overwhelmingly positive approach and a wish to see the sport develop and fulfil its potential so if we disagree on a some personalities or issues sometimes it won't distort that postiive sense overall.
A quick point on the Coghlan issue - she was fired because she tried to stand up to the politicians and to expose what was going on, of that there should be no doubt. It's failure of a sort in that she didn't survive that (although that decision will be made by a judge in due course) but in fact as I implied in an earlier post her contribution will be seen in time to be significant and honourable. But her action will force the bad stuff out in the open and it will require the association to decide what type of board and executive it wants and that is progress.
The bad apples will have to be rooted out though. If you have no transparency and no trust, then you will not attract competent individuals to contribute, either as volunteers or as staff. Good people find better things to do - they build up their clubs, they coach, organise road races whatever. All those people are out there in clubs but they won't touch the national organisation because they can't/won't work a corrupt system and they value their good name. Eddie McDongah in DSD is a great example - got on the Board (executive it was called then I think) and saw what it involved, got off it and stuck to working at club level with great success. But never again went back to see what he could do nationally.
You could sit down for half an hour and come up with an alternative board that would be ten times better than what's there now from people at the grassroots level.
For Foley to be able to succeed he will need to get a better Board delivered in April, and with the support of a strong President he can put in place the systems that will enable us to achieve our potential.
If Doyle was here, would Proper have a better chance of get to the final in London? Would Derval's hurdling improve, would we have a couple of 5.50 vaulters. That's not to denigrate their coaches but we need world class professionals if we are to help world class athletes and none of that will happen when the primary concern of board members is expenses, trips and control of appointments.

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 3:15pm

FishnChips wrote: »

I don't have a personal vendetta against Liam or Patsy but the fact of the matter is that in conjunction with the Sports Council they are at the core of the problems that AAI are currently facing.
.

Based on your posting history I think you do or at least have them on the brain. I'd say half of your posts have the word 'patsy' in it while I'd say 75% plus of your posts are along the general anti Patsy/Liam/ISC axis. Thats all I am basing it on. I don't know you so I can judge you but on what you post here.

FishnChips wrote: »

Do you think it was acceptable for the AAI board to sack the former CEO without good reason in a kangaroo court type situation or do you think they had good grounds to sack her?

.

I don't know. I am not on the board of AAI or party to their thoughts (even with all the leaks). So I can't make judgement on that. What I try and make judgement on is what I see, hear and witness at first hand myself. Based on this I know its not all black and white. Its highly charged and divisive. People and sides will be giving their side of the story. Who do you believe. Thats a judgement call.

If it ever comes out that due course wasn't followed then I don't think it was appropriate to sack her.

FishnChips wrote: »

If you don't think it was acceptable for the board to make a potentially fatal decision like this (Liam and Patsy are President and Vice-President respectively after all) do you not think there is a MAJOR problem here with the type of people who are making decisions regarding the running of athletics in Ireland?

.

Same answer as above. I don't know if due course was followed correctly so how can I comment. If it wasn't, then of course its a problem. See this is my point. Right now its opinion. We'll just be going around in circles. I prefer to focus on someone who can make a change right now. Let the court thing sort the other crap out.

FishnChips wrote: »

Since you seem to have knowledge of the previous CEOs not being 'up to scratch' could you explain WHY the most recent CEO was fired?

.

Again, not on the board so don't know for certain why she was fired. In most cases people are fired as they aren't up to scratch. I assume this is why she was sacked.

I said she wasn't up to scratch as the sport off the track is in absolute turmoil as she was CEO in this time. If she was up the scratch then we would surely have progressed in the past year as opposed to regressed. At the end of the day it all may come out in the wash and what she did for the sport will be recognised. I believe if circumstances were different she may have been able to do a great job. I was a big fan of her in the job when I heard she got it last year.

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 3:25pm

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

For Foley to be able to succeed he will need to get a better Board delivered in April, and with the support of a strong President he can put in place the systems that will enable us to achieve our potential.
.

Thats where the members like us come in I suppose. Based on how you explained it works that could be hard though to get changes through Congress. I wasn't aware the process was so onerous but thats democracy I suppose. If we don't do something or at least exercise our vote it'll be like all the people who complain about the Govt yet voted FF in the last election!

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

If Doyle was here, would Proper have a better chance of get to the final in London? Would Derval's hurdling improve, would we have a couple of 5.50 vaulters.

I think the answer to all those could be yes. I had a session with him a couple of years back. He didn't do or say much but it was simply 30 mins where we focused on a couple of things. Fixed a technical problem I had all my life in that short time. Not saying he is a miracle worker but he would have brought something to the table without a doubt.

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 3:31pm

Originally posted by hunnymonster
Fish'n'chips, what exactly (i.e. not in "office politics/pettiness/incompetence/unprofessionalism" terms, but rather concrete examples/events) are the problems you perceive in AAI? I'm asking as a rank 'n file member, who doesn't know anything about the running of the organisation?

The sacking of the most recent CEO would be a prime example of that. It is very reflective of how the organisation is run as a whole i.e. without due/transparent processes, accountability, professionalism etc.

This has effects at all levels of the sport - from badly run domestic competitions to a Major Championship Team Manager slating the athletes he is supposed to be managing on an internet blog.

As IrishTrackFan said the primary concern of the AAI board is expenses, trips and control of appointments - they're not actually too concerned about the development of the sport. That's the basic problem.

Clum · 11-09-2009 3:34pm

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

This all seems very vague. I'm looking for more to the answer than 'removing the politicians' and 'putting the athletes first'.

If imposed as full time CEO what actual changes do you all want to see Foley implement? What can be done to make AAI a better organisation?

thirtyfoot · 11-09-2009 3:38pm

Clum wrote: »

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

This all seems very vague. I'm looking for more to the answer than 'removing the politicians' and 'putting the athletes first'.

If imposed as full time CEO what actual changes do you all want to see Foley implement? What can be done to make AAI a better organisation?

IrishTrackFans 3 points from an earlier post is a good start.

ChickenTikka · 11-09-2009 5:17pm

Clum wrote: »

Everybody is mentioning changes and problems and progress but what changes do you want to see?

I think that the processes by which various functions within the organisation are run need to be reviewed/updated to bring in line with good governance. For example, earlier threads asked how team managers for international teams are selected. Are they advertised? Are they hand-picked from the inner circle? Are they part of the decision-making committee who picks themselves to go? Same goes for coaches who get picked to go on internationals. Not saying its wrong for anyone that was picked, but its a conflict of interest if you are picking yourself. The process should be defined so as to avoid any suspicions of cronyism.

An audit committee that makes sure money is well spent, e.g. was the money spent on the online registration system well spent, was the money spent on the youth training camp this year well spent etc. Our structures should be such that they ensure good financial management - everything might be fine, or maybe its not - the rank and file don't know and can only speculate. I'd like to see accounts which list the income from every major event and the expenditure on every major event. e.g. how much did Berlin cost us, how much does National juvenile finals cost, National seniors, what sort of money is paid in expenses, how much comes in juvenile entry fees, how much comes in senior entry fees etc. I am sure all this stuff exists, but its not available to the rank and file. Making it available will help transparency and also help us all understand the real cost of running the sport. Maybe then we will be more critical ... or maybe we will be less critical.

A proper CV of people nominated to the various subcomittees and board so that when county boards are voting at Congress on membership, they get to make an informed choice on who they vote for. The way its done now seems to be that you get the nod from someone else who's involved in the sport for donkey's years that the person to vote for is so-and-so. If you're not involved for 20 years yourself, you only know the person's name and nothing else so have to take someone else's word for their merits. I'd love to see candidates having to publish on AAI website who they are, what they have done and what their opinions are on the development of the sport. Then you have an idea of what you are voting for.

A more uptodate communication system for important announcements. For example, our former CEO's departure was never announced as far as I know - we all read about it in the papers and we speculate did she resign, was she sacked etc.. Yet mundane announcments like the Ballyboghole 10k get onto the website very quickly. The delayed National league results are another example of this.

Fixture lists that don't change once announced - this year the National juvenile dates were changed at a month's notice to faciliate a juvenile international in which a handful of athletes were competing and inconveniencing 100s of athletes. Last year, a National juvenile fixture was changed supposedly cause it clashed with Cork City Sports. If we don't want these clashes, figure it out before announcing the fixtures.

A proper forum within AAI to submit any suggestions like above where you are confident they will be considered. Sometimes your phone calls to HQ are not even returned.

I could go on. Some of these are small things, easily fixed. Others may open a can of worms. But I think if the organisation can become more transparent, it will give more confidence to everyone that it is being well run.

RoyMcC · 11-09-2009 5:25pm

Excellent post Chicken, I hope our new CEO is taking notes. I hope he can get me accredited as a coach after 18 months of waiting

IrishTrackFan · 11-09-2009 5:57pm

Excellent post. Some comments interspersed below.

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I think that the processes by which various functions within the organisation are run need to be reviewed/updated to bring in line with good governance. For example, earlier threads asked how team managers for international teams are selected. Are they advertised? Are they hand-picked from the inner circle? Are they part of the decision-making committee who picks themselves to go? Same goes for coaches who get picked to go on internationals. Not saying its wrong for anyone that was picked, but its a conflict of interest if you are picking yourself. The process should be defined so as to avoid any suspicions of cronyism.
Transparency and visibility is the basis of good governance. At the last Congress a motion was passed that the Coaching and Development committee select coaches for teams. The Chair of High Performance ignores this however and team managers and coaches alike are chosen without any process that is visible to anyone but himself. For evidence compare his photo with 'Head Coach' Stephen Maguire on the Finn Valley Berlin blog with the published choice of the Coaching Committee of Paddy Fay for that role.

An audit committee that makes sure money is well spent, e.g. was the money spent on the online registration system well spent, was the money spent on the youth training camp this year well spent etc. Our structures should be such that they ensure good financial management - everything might be fine, or maybe its not - the rank and file don't know and can only speculate. I'd like to see accounts which list the income from every major event and the expenditure on every major event. e.g. how much did Berlin cost us, how much does National juvenile finals cost, National seniors, what sort of money is paid in expenses, how much comes in juvenile entry fees, how much comes in senior entry fees etc. I am sure all this stuff exists, but its not available to the rank and file. Making it available will help transparency and also help us all understand the real cost of running the sport. Maybe then we will be more critical ... or maybe we will be less critical.

That's pretty much in place - there is an operational plan for the year and a budget to match that. Monthly management accounts compare year to date versus budget and of course there is an independent audit at the end of the year. The accounts are presented to Congress. I am not sure that the operational plan is published but it should be.

A proper CV of people nominated to the various subcomittees and board so that when county boards are voting at Congress on membership, they get to make an informed choice on who they vote for. The way its done now seems to be that you get the nod from someone else who's involved in the sport for donkey's years that the person to vote for is so-and-so. If you're not involved for 20 years yourself, you only know the person's name and nothing else so have to take someone else's word for their merits. I'd love to see candidates having to publish on AAI website who they are, what they have done and what their opinions are on the development of the sport. Then you have an idea of what you are voting for.

This is a great idea but not a new one! The recent CEO proposed that this be done but as far as I know it wasn't taken up by the Board.

A more uptodate communication system for important announcements. For example, our former CEO's departure was never announced as far as I know - we all read about it in the papers and we speculate did she resign, was she sacked etc.. Yet mundane announcments like the Ballyboghole 10k get onto the website very quickly. The delayed National league results are another example of this.

Hard to criticise regarding the CEO announcement given the controvery around that. There may have been legal constraints on that. There is a problem with the current competition system which struggles to get results out in a format that is meaningful for websites and indeed the media generally.

Fixture lists that don't change once announced - this year the National juvenile dates were changed at a month's notice to faciliate a juvenile international in which a handful of athletes were competing and inconveniencing 100s of athletes. Last year, a National juvenile fixture was changed supposedly cause it clashed with Cork City Sports. If we don't want these clashes, figure it out before announcing the fixtures.

Shouldn't happen but very very difficult - there is a lot of careful work done by the relevant committees to coordinate the calendar but it is impossible to get it perfect every time.

A proper forum within AAI to submit any suggestions like above where you are confident they will be considered. Sometimes your phone calls to HQ are not even returned.

There is no culture at the Board and also perhaps within the staff that values rank and file member input.

I could go on. Some of these are small things, easily fixed. Others may open a can of worms. But I think if the organisation can become more transparent, it will give more confidence to everyone that it is being well run.

Fish'n'Chips · 11-09-2009 7:28pm

Originally posted by Tingle
Again, not on the board so don't know for certain why she was fired. In most cases people are fired as they aren't up to scratch. I assume this is why she was sacked.

I said she wasn't up to scratch as the sport off the track is in absolute turmoil as she was CEO in this time. If she was up the scratch then we would surely have progressed in the past year as opposed to regressed. At the end of the day it all may come out in the wash and what she did for the sport will be recognised. I believe if circumstances were different she may have been able to do a great job. I was a big fan of her in the job when I heard she got it last year.

Tingle,
I think this is the sort of picture the AAI board and Sports Council want to paint and to a certain degree if a person who has a fairly decent knowledge of the situation and a good athletics man like yourself is willing to buy into it then they have succeeded to a certain degree.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what does 'up to scratch' specifically mean?

It has never been explicitly stated WHY the CEO was fired. I'd put money on it that there are members of the AAI board who view this board so perhaps they could explain it? All that has been spun is that there has been internal turmoil, splits, infighting, funding withheld, massive legal bills etc. and the innuendo that it MUST HAVE been the CEO's fault otherwise why would they be forcing her out? The classic is that it is 'it is nothing personal but for the good of the sport'. They're basing it on the principle of no smoke without fire which a lot of people have been taken in by. The Sports Council have ruled the AAI board by fear and as a result have chosen to take the course of action which has landed them in the High Court.

IrishTrackFan · 11-09-2009 7:50pm

FishnChips wrote: »

Tingle,
I think this is the sort of picture the AAI board and Sports Council want to paint and to a certain degree if a person who has a fairly decent knowledge of the situation and a good athletics man like yourself is willing to buy into it then they have succeeded to a certain degree.

I'm not trying to be argumentative here but what does 'up to scratch' specifically mean?

It has never been explicitly stated WHY the CEO was fired. I'd put money on it that there are members of the AAI board who view this board so perhaps they could explain it? All that has been spun is that there has been internal turmoil, splits, infighting, funding withheld, massive legal bills etc. and the innuendo that it MUST HAVE been the CEO's fault otherwise why would they be forcing her out? The classic is that it is 'it is nothing personal but for the good of the sport'. They're basing it on the principle of no smoke without fire which a lot of people have been taken in by. The Sports Council have ruled the AAI board by fear and as a result have chosen to take the course of action which has landed them in the High Court.

Fish'n'Chips: the music will stop at the High Court and the CEO will have her day then to tell the story. I agree with you regarding the underlying problems but it is impossible for outsiders to know the full details and I suspect that even board members don't have the full story. The spinning and the newspaper leaks will mean nothing when the judge's gavel sounds. So my advice is to chill, the truth will come out then if not before and like you I believe that the truth will show that a great injustice has been done to a competent and passionate CEO who happened to be in the wrong place (successor to Hackett who the ISC Chairman was strongly associated with, and also putting in place HP structures and people while the ISC and the HP Chair were planning to move HP out of AAI) at the wrong time.
But this is not the place to continually trawl over all this - as I say the High Court will do that and the Association will benefit - sometimes the best lessons are the most painful ones to learn and I suspect it will be very difficult for the Association when it happens but hopefully it will enable us to move past 30 years of political infighting amongst incompetent people who believe the sport is there to serve their interests.
So if you are in a club, get involved, push for change, and make a difference.

IrishTrackFan · 11-09-2009 8:08pm

In the interest of staying positive and because it is an interest of mine I would like to get people's views on coaching, and I suppose coaching in Ireland in particular.
I have seldom heard coaches say positive things about each other in many years of involvement in the sport. And because there are so many variables in the coaching area it is impossible to rebut a lot of these comments other than to ask people to stay positive.
For instance, how do you define a good coach? You could argue that the athlete makes the coach in many cases.
I am delighted to see so many coaching courses being made available by AAI and I would say for young kids and for beginners the courses deliver good results. But I am not sure that the higher level coaches being qualified at level two and three really comprise a consistent level of capability as a consequence of their completing those courses. Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?
Which brings you back to what constitutes a proven coach?
Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).
And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

helpisontheway · 11-09-2009 8:45pm

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

In the interest of staying positive and because it is an interest of mine I would like to get people's views on coaching, and I suppose coaching in Ireland in particular.
I have seldom heard coaches say positive things about each other in many years of involvement in the sport. And because there are so many variables in the coaching area it is impossible to rebut a lot of these comments other than to ask people to stay positive.
For instance, how do you define a good coach? You could argue that the athlete makes the coach in many cases.
I am delighted to see so many coaching courses being made available by AAI and I would say for young kids and for beginners the courses deliver good results. But I am not sure that the higher level coaches being qualified at level two and three really comprise a consistent level of capability as a consequence of their completing those courses. Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?
Which brings you back to what constitutes a proven coach?
Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).
And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

This could nearly do with a thread of its own!;)
I wont even attempt to make points on everything above as there is alot there to be discussed.
IMO the coaching structure in Ireland is poor overall.There are some fantastic coaches in the country but few and far between.You could nearly break down the type of coaches in the country to the following-
1.Parents of children-Delighted to have them of course but alot of the time they have little experience of the sport and more often or not will dissapear when their kids do.
2.The Old Timers-The really old style coaching which alot of the time makes no sense but because they have been involved in athletics for 60 years they must know what they are doing.
3.Ex athletes-The new generation who are willing to learn most of the time for the love of the sport.
4.The Ego's-Coaches who know what they are talking about but let their ego's get in the way.In general these are the guys i find moan and moan about coaching etc but never actually do anything about it.
5.The Pretenders-They really do far more organising than actual coaching.
5.The Pro's-They are few and far between but the ones we have are excellent.To name a few Brid Golden,Eddie McDonagh,John Sheehan.Im sure others will throw a few more names on there.

thirtyfoot · 12-09-2009 11:31pm

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

Would more practical workshop oriented masterclasses with proven coaches make more sense?

This for me is a definite. Practical on the job coaching is the best way to do this. A mentor program would be a great idea. I availed of a couple of mentors in a small way last season. I hope to use these guys (they don't know they are mentors!) even more so this season as I made some stupid mistakes as a coach and wiser head would have helped. You can't beat experience and many times to get experince you need to make mistakes. Obviously having the technical or scientific knowledge is crucial but experience of the many facets of coaching is invaluable.

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

Howdo you organise coaching in a club? I believe athletes should relate to the club, not to the coach but I doubt that is the situation in many clubs. Coaching systems can be athlete-centred (ideal, but labour intensive and not suitable for large numbers), programme-centred (scales well but only works for whoever the programme suits, the rest lose out) and coach-centred (not good but all too prevalent where it is all about the coach).

Don't know much about the wider club coaching element, but I have witnessed the squad sessions and these are great. I don't see too many club coaches with the kids at these events so maybe if that was more prevalent it would act as a workshop for coaches as well as a squad session for kids. I'd imagine at younger ages when there are more numbers that program centred is the way forward.

IrishTrackFan wrote: »

And when the Coaching committee in AAI put together their national coaches for each event group should they be looking for coaches with a track record of coaching or should they look for organisers/administrators?
How do top coaches in Ireland fit in with High Performance - if you hire an international Director of Athletics does that discourage the locals?

The national coaches setup isn't working for most events. I don't know the event coaches for my events. I probably know them but don't realise they are the national coaches. Should they be great coaches or facilitators. Right now they probably need better organisation so I'd say an organiser who can pull in the right coaches when needed. Squad sessions for athletes >20 years old are non-existent in most events. Its up to individuals to organise. Ciaran McDonagh did a squad session for sprints/jumps in Sligo recently. Not officially with AAI AFAIK. €5 charge to cover the track rental. No crap, no politics just passing on his wealth of knowlegde to kids and coaches.

There is no direction, no leadership in this area. A Dir of Athletics is sorely needed.

AAI Message - Athletics Ireland Announces John Foley as Interim CEO

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