variable valve timing hub

nz039926

Hi all,

Timing chain on my Nissan Almera got stretched so I agreed to paying £530 for the timing chain but now I got a call
from garage saying the "variable valve timing hub" ceased up which caused the timing chain to stretch in the first place.
Fitting a new variable valve timing hub costs £830.
Does anyone know what a variable valve timing hub is?

Not sure if it's worth spending £1360 on the car, but I'm trapped as will have to pay the £530 eventhough the car won't be usable.
Any advice is welcome
Thanks

ianobrien

I thought the 1.5 Almera didn't have variable valve timing. I know the 1.8 Nissan Engine does however and a few Almera's were sold here with the 1.8 VERY early on........

JimmyCrackCorn!

Assuming a Ga16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-VCT



Common problem

nz039926

Not sure about that, but I know it's a Nissan Almera 1.5 S, 2003, 3doors.
Would you replace the parts or buy another car?
I don't think I'll ever buy a Nissan after this.

ianobrien

nz039926 wrote: »

Not sure about that, but I know it's a Nissan Almera 1.5 S, 2003, 3doors.

I've just checked, the 1.5 never had variable valve timing, so I don't know the "Variable Valve Timing Hub" can be gone. I seriously doubt that the camshaft pully is gone as well.

What happens is that the chain stretches (poor/old oil or poor materials in chain), and the adjuster then takes up the slack. However, the adjuster has only a certain amount of slack that it can take up before running out of adjustment. When the adjuster can take up no more, the timing between the cam and the crankshaft starts to get out of sequence, and the ECU sees this and throws up a fault and lights up the dashboard like Christmas.

The Chain Stretch is a common fault on 2001 to 2004 Almeras especially with low mileages, and typically affect cars that long time between services. The cause is open to debate, but later ones had a different chain and don't seem to suffer as much. Cars with high mileage don't seem to suffer as much either, and due to the mileage, are serviced more often over a fixed period of time. I'd recommend the car should have an oil change every 6 months regardless of mileage. That's what I do on my Almera.

nz039926 wrote: »

Would you replace the parts or buy another car?

How much NCT is on the car? It may be worth fixing the car, and it may be worth talking to a mechanic that knows the Almera timing chain, as they didn't have variable valve timing.

nz039926 wrote: »

I don't think I'll ever buy a Nissan after this.

Don't let one bad experience turn you off them for ever, just don't get a post '03 Micra if you're worried about timing chain stretch (to fix them, generally the engine & gearbox must come out due to access)

nz039926

I think they do have VVT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_QG_engine

Someone said :

---

If the VVT gubbins is seized, I can't see it affecting the wear of the chain. All it does is vary the position of the camshaft relative to the drive sprocket. If it is seized, you'll just lose the advantages (economy and performance) of the VVT.

I'd ask whoever's fitting it to prove their diagnosis by showing the new one working against the old one not.

---

I think when they fitted the new chain (They said it was all over the place), and were trying to put everything back they notice VVT wasn't moving. I havent' seen it myslef.

Does that mean I can ask them to put the old one back if I'm just going to lose the advantages? £850 is a lot of money.

ianobrien

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

I know that my 1.5 Almera doesn't have VVT (I removed the rocker cover to check) and that the Father's 1.8 Primera has (also through a removed rocker cover), and the 1.8 has a "lump" in the top of the timing chain cover for the larger VVT Hub.

Did you take the car to a Main Dealer or to an independant Garage?

When they were putting everything back together, I hope that they had the engine "locked" so as to not throw out the timing. If they had the engine locked, how could they check if it was moving (I'm unsure if the QG has a facility to lock the engine - I know in the Citroen AX 1.4 a M10 bolt locks the flywheel & a M8 locks the camshaft for timing belt change)

How can the chain be "all over the place"? I assume that if it's stretched, it's still in one piece?

How can a stuck VVT hub wear the chain? If it was stuck, all that would happen is that the car would be down on performance as the second cam profile would not be coming in.

nz039926

ianobrien wrote: »

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

I know that my 1.5 Almera doesn't have VVT (I removed the rocker cover to check) and that the Father's 1.8 Primera has (also through a removed rocker cover), and the 1.8 has a "lump" in the top of the timing chain cover for the larger VVT Hub.

Did you take the car to a Main Dealer or to an independant Garage?

When they were putting everything back together, I hope that they had the engine "locked" so as to not throw out the timing. If they had the engine locked, how could they check if it was moving (I'm unsure if the QG has a facility to lock the engine - I know in the Citroen AX 1.4 a M10 bolt locks the flywheel & a M8 locks the camshaft for timing belt change)

How can the chain be "all over the place"? I assume that if it's stretched, it's still in one piece?

How can a stuck VVT hub wear the chain? If it was stuck, all that would happen is that the car would be down on performance as the second cam profile would not be coming in.

On another thread found the following:
The Wiki item says:

"The QG engine is a 1.3 L, 1.5 L, 1.6 L, 1.8 L, and 2.0 L straight-4 piston engine from Nissan. It is a lean-burn aluminum DOHC 4-valve design with variable valve timing"

So, if it's to be believed, all the QG range have VVT, including the 1.5.

If the 1.5 hasn't got VVT, then I'd love to know what the electrical connection goes to in the chain end of the cam cover.

Back to the OP's problem, I'd still like to see them compare a new one with the existing one. I guess it's electrically operated at high revs, so it probably wouldn't do anything unless you can simulate the conditions it operates under.

I doubt if the average driver could tell if it's working or not. I'd put the old one back on a car that age!

---

Now, I really think it's the mechanic at Nationwide autocentre didn't have experience with timing chains and looked at the part and when it didn't move he guessed it wasn't working.

Are there any tests that can be done to prove it's working before putting it back in the car?
Does everyone agree I should ask the mechanic to put the old one back?

Gave Nissan a call they refused to give any information about the part saying they don't disclose that type of
info over the phone.

Really appreciate your help & advice.

JHMEG

ianobrien wrote: »

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

That article also says the 1.5 puts out 109bhp, but it only puts out 88 or 96bhp depending on year. Now a 16-valve engine with two camshafts putting out that little power definitely doesn't have variable anything!

ianobrien wrote:

second cam profile would not be coming in.

Being academic here, but this is not how this system works. No extra lobes on the cams. This system should really be called phasing to avoid confusion.

ianobrien

JHMEG wrote: »

Being academic here, but this is not how this system works. No extra lobes on the cams. This system should really be called phasing to avoid confusion.

Opps, A bit of brain fade there. I was thinking of the early Honda VTEC system with the two cam profiles and the switch that engages at approx 5800rpm-ish when typing. Looking at the pics of the cams from the 1.5 & 1.8 in the phone, it seems that the Nissan VVT alters the cam timing via the hub.

nz039926

Does it sound the mechanic not clued on Almera engine and probably the part is working fine?
Shall I ask them to put the old part "variable valve timing hub" back then?
Will I lose anything considering the age of the car?

ianobrien

nz039926 wrote: »

On another thread found the following:
The Wiki item says:

Never trust Wiki for anything. As you have found, two artices there give conflicting info...

Also, I know what's in my Almera, and my one doesn't have variable valve timing.

nz039926 wrote: »

If the 1.5 hasn't got VVT, then I'd love to know what the electrical connection goes to in the chain end of the cam cover.

It's for the cam timing/phase/unsure of the correct name but it's to keep an eye on the cam position sensor. As I said, the ECU checks to see that the cam & crank are in correct allignment. It uses this sensor for this.

nz039926 wrote: »

Back to the OP's problem,

You are the OP, aren't you?

JHMEG

ianobrien wrote: »

Opps, A bit of brain fade there. I was thinking of the early Honda VTEC system with the two cam profiles and the switch that engages at approx 5800rpm-ish

Yes, I know you were

nz039926

Nationwide autocentre saying now I have to pay for the part even I didn't want it as it's coming from Europe.
Should the part have been taken out in the first place?

Please advice me.

Gary ITR

nz039926 wrote: »

Nationwide autocentre saying now I have to pay for the part even I didn't want it as it's coming from Europe.
Should the part have been taken out in the first place?

Please advice me.

Did you give them the go ahead to do the work?

nz039926

Onkle wrote: »

Did you give them the go ahead to do the work?

Agreed for them to order the part under the assumption mine wasn't working. Now not sure if my part wasn't working, and not sure if they should have taken it out in the first place.
Please advice.

Drummerboy08

But you agreed that they could order the part, so why shouldnt you pay for it? If you were not sure about what was going on, you should have asked there and then IMO.

nz039926

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

But you agreed that they could order the part, so why shouldnt you pay for it? If you were not sure about what was going on, you should have asked there and then IMO.

Some people adviced me:
"they incorrectly diagnosed the part as faulty through their lack of expertise."

Gary ITR

I think you need to find out if your car has VVT. Best thing to do would be to give a Nissan dealer a ring and ask if your car has VVT. If it does then you'll have to pay for the part, if not then you should just take your car back from these guys

nz039926

Some more inof:
The part got cancelled.

The part in question is "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" which is no 7 in this illustration (1320AU00A):
http://nissan4u.com/parts/almera_uk_...llustration_2/

I've got a feeling somepeople were giving advice thinking it was the solenoid part which is no 4 in the above illustration(237968UU0V).
I spoke again to the garage and they are saying now that managed to "dismantle it" and lined it up but not sure if it won't lock up in a week or a year! and they won't guarantee their work now

They said the timing chain was really loose and that's now replaced, phew!
But am I making a mistake by asking them to put the old "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" back on?

nz039926

Garage (NAC) just phoned me now and they said the part got shipped and I'll have to pay the cost because I agreed to it verbally.
But I only agreed to it because they said it was faulty.
Don't think I'll be using NAC again.
I don't think my part was faulty but don't think I can prove that.
They said no further work will be done on the car till the bill is paid.

Any advice please?

JHMEG

nz039926 wrote: »

Garage (NAC) just phoned me now and they said the part got shipped and I'll have to pay the cost because I agreed to it verbally.

It can be returned.

nz039926

JHMEG wrote: »

It can be returned.

Nationwide Autocentre said it was ordered from Nissan europe and the latter won't return any products.
Again, I agreed to them ordering it because they said my part was faulty. I really think it wasn't faulty and I know it'll be difficult to prove that because they can easily damage it.
My theory they have enough connections and they can easily get rid off it somehow, if they manage to charge me they'll lose my custom and I'll do my best so anyone I know won't use them.

Mr.Diagnostic

OP, the garage told you the part was faulty. They had inspected it and, one would assume, are qualified to make that judgement. A few total strangers on the internet, who have not seen the car, told you that the diagnosis was in correct and that particular part is not fitted to the car.
Based on this you both questioned and instructed the garage. If they have taken umbrage it is hardly surprising. You instructed them on what way to do the job and as such it is only right that you pay for it. You also instructed them to order the part on your behalf so it is again only right that you pay for it. They should not be at the loss of the value of the part because you did not allow them fit it. If they have told you that the part cannot be returned they are correct, as long as the part was correctly supplied.

If you still doubt that the part was required then take the car back without it fitted and get someone else to look at it. If it needs it at least you will have it. If not, then you can deal with the garage harshly.

I would have to wonder if your best course of action would be to ring the garage, explain that you had bad advice and apologise. Then try and work out a deal on the labour to get the part fitted.

I believe you have made a rod for your own back here.

beam99

The garage should be able to do an active test on the vvt system, that looks to be the same set up as the toyota vvti system. Going off the picture nz039936 has posted, the vvt sprocket on the end of no2 camshaft is the one in question, the inlet side, the system works on oil pressure, the ECU sends a single to the valve solenoid {NO 4 } which triggers the vvt sensor on NO 2 camshaft. All they have to do is when the engine is ticking over is to apply voltage to the solenoid valve, the valve will click and if the engine cuts out the system is working, if the engine stays running the sprocket is faulty.

colm_mcm

I'm 99.9% sure the European vesion of the 1.5 engine hasn't got VVT.

Mr.Diagnostic

There was a change in bhp from 07/2002 but both versions were the QG15DE engine. I have data listed for both variable and non, both with the same engine code. It looks like the variable was fitted from 07/2002 and the OP’s is 2003.

That info I checked was from two very reliable databases.

Gary ITR

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

There was a change in bhp from 07/2002 but both versions were the QG15DE engine. I have data listed for both variable and non, both with the same engine code. It looks like the variable was fitted from 07/2002 and the OP’s is 2003.

That info I checked was from two very reliable databases.

Thanks for clearing that up

nz039926

Does the "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" need to be removed when replacing a stretched "Timing Chain" on a Nissan Almera?

Thank you.

beam99

No there should be no reason to remove the sprocket, when fitting the chain.

nz039926

beam99 wrote: »

No there should be no reason to remove the sprocket, when fitting the chain.

Thaks for your reply.

In that case, I don't understand why the Nationwide Autocentre decided to remove it.
My only explanation is they didn't know what they were doing.

Surely I can say: I asked for the Timing Chain to be replaced, and since the sprocket is not part of the job, I don't require it.

I know they won't let me even tow my car until I pay for the sprocket.