variable valve timing hub

nz039926

Hi all,

Timing chain on my Nissan Almera got stretched so I agreed to paying £530 for the timing chain but now I got a call
from garage saying the "variable valve timing hub" ceased up which caused the timing chain to stretch in the first place.
Fitting a new variable valve timing hub costs £830.
Does anyone know what a variable valve timing hub is?

Not sure if it's worth spending £1360 on the car, but I'm trapped as will have to pay the £530 eventhough the car won't be usable.
Any advice is welcome
Thanks

ianobrien

I thought the 1.5 Almera didn't have variable valve timing. I know the 1.8 Nissan Engine does however and a few Almera's were sold here with the 1.8 VERY early on........

JimmyCrackCorn!

Assuming a Ga16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-VCT



Common problem

nz039926

Not sure about that, but I know it's a Nissan Almera 1.5 S, 2003, 3doors.
Would you replace the parts or buy another car?
I don't think I'll ever buy a Nissan after this.

ianobrien

nz039926 wrote: »

Not sure about that, but I know it's a Nissan Almera 1.5 S, 2003, 3doors.

I've just checked, the 1.5 never had variable valve timing, so I don't know the "Variable Valve Timing Hub" can be gone. I seriously doubt that the camshaft pully is gone as well.

What happens is that the chain stretches (poor/old oil or poor materials in chain), and the adjuster then takes up the slack. However, the adjuster has only a certain amount of slack that it can take up before running out of adjustment. When the adjuster can take up no more, the timing between the cam and the crankshaft starts to get out of sequence, and the ECU sees this and throws up a fault and lights up the dashboard like Christmas.

The Chain Stretch is a common fault on 2001 to 2004 Almeras especially with low mileages, and typically affect cars that long time between services. The cause is open to debate, but later ones had a different chain and don't seem to suffer as much. Cars with high mileage don't seem to suffer as much either, and due to the mileage, are serviced more often over a fixed period of time. I'd recommend the car should have an oil change every 6 months regardless of mileage. That's what I do on my Almera.

nz039926 wrote: »

Would you replace the parts or buy another car?

How much NCT is on the car? It may be worth fixing the car, and it may be worth talking to a mechanic that knows the Almera timing chain, as they didn't have variable valve timing.

nz039926 wrote: »

I don't think I'll ever buy a Nissan after this.

Don't let one bad experience turn you off them for ever, just don't get a post '03 Micra if you're worried about timing chain stretch (to fix them, generally the engine & gearbox must come out due to access)

nz039926

I think they do have VVT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_QG_engine

Someone said :

---

If the VVT gubbins is seized, I can't see it affecting the wear of the chain. All it does is vary the position of the camshaft relative to the drive sprocket. If it is seized, you'll just lose the advantages (economy and performance) of the VVT.

I'd ask whoever's fitting it to prove their diagnosis by showing the new one working against the old one not.

---

I think when they fitted the new chain (They said it was all over the place), and were trying to put everything back they notice VVT wasn't moving. I havent' seen it myslef.

Does that mean I can ask them to put the old one back if I'm just going to lose the advantages? £850 is a lot of money.

ianobrien

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

I know that my 1.5 Almera doesn't have VVT (I removed the rocker cover to check) and that the Father's 1.8 Primera has (also through a removed rocker cover), and the 1.8 has a "lump" in the top of the timing chain cover for the larger VVT Hub.

Did you take the car to a Main Dealer or to an independant Garage?

When they were putting everything back together, I hope that they had the engine "locked" so as to not throw out the timing. If they had the engine locked, how could they check if it was moving (I'm unsure if the QG has a facility to lock the engine - I know in the Citroen AX 1.4 a M10 bolt locks the flywheel & a M8 locks the camshaft for timing belt change)

How can the chain be "all over the place"? I assume that if it's stretched, it's still in one piece?

How can a stuck VVT hub wear the chain? If it was stuck, all that would happen is that the car would be down on performance as the second cam profile would not be coming in.

nz039926

ianobrien wrote: »

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

I know that my 1.5 Almera doesn't have VVT (I removed the rocker cover to check) and that the Father's 1.8 Primera has (also through a removed rocker cover), and the 1.8 has a "lump" in the top of the timing chain cover for the larger VVT Hub.

Did you take the car to a Main Dealer or to an independant Garage?

When they were putting everything back together, I hope that they had the engine "locked" so as to not throw out the timing. If they had the engine locked, how could they check if it was moving (I'm unsure if the QG has a facility to lock the engine - I know in the Citroen AX 1.4 a M10 bolt locks the flywheel & a M8 locks the camshaft for timing belt change)

How can the chain be "all over the place"? I assume that if it's stretched, it's still in one piece?

How can a stuck VVT hub wear the chain? If it was stuck, all that would happen is that the car would be down on performance as the second cam profile would not be coming in.

On another thread found the following:
The Wiki item says:

"The QG engine is a 1.3 L, 1.5 L, 1.6 L, 1.8 L, and 2.0 L straight-4 piston engine from Nissan. It is a lean-burn aluminum DOHC 4-valve design with variable valve timing"

So, if it's to be believed, all the QG range have VVT, including the 1.5.

If the 1.5 hasn't got VVT, then I'd love to know what the electrical connection goes to in the chain end of the cam cover.

Back to the OP's problem, I'd still like to see them compare a new one with the existing one. I guess it's electrically operated at high revs, so it probably wouldn't do anything unless you can simulate the conditions it operates under.

I doubt if the average driver could tell if it's working or not. I'd put the old one back on a car that age!

---

Now, I really think it's the mechanic at Nationwide autocentre didn't have experience with timing chains and looked at the part and when it didn't move he guessed it wasn't working.

Are there any tests that can be done to prove it's working before putting it back in the car?
Does everyone agree I should ask the mechanic to put the old one back?

Gave Nissan a call they refused to give any information about the part saying they don't disclose that type of
info over the phone.

Really appreciate your help & advice.

JHMEG

ianobrien wrote: »

If you read that Wiki article, it says that Variable Valve timing is fitted in the QG16DE & QG18GE. The Almera is fitted with the QG15DE Engine which doesn't.

That article also says the 1.5 puts out 109bhp, but it only puts out 88 or 96bhp depending on year. Now a 16-valve engine with two camshafts putting out that little power definitely doesn't have variable anything!

ianobrien wrote:

second cam profile would not be coming in.

Being academic here, but this is not how this system works. No extra lobes on the cams. This system should really be called phasing to avoid confusion.

ianobrien

JHMEG wrote: »

Being academic here, but this is not how this system works. No extra lobes on the cams. This system should really be called phasing to avoid confusion.

Opps, A bit of brain fade there. I was thinking of the early Honda VTEC system with the two cam profiles and the switch that engages at approx 5800rpm-ish when typing. Looking at the pics of the cams from the 1.5 & 1.8 in the phone, it seems that the Nissan VVT alters the cam timing via the hub.

nz039926

Does it sound the mechanic not clued on Almera engine and probably the part is working fine?
Shall I ask them to put the old part "variable valve timing hub" back then?
Will I lose anything considering the age of the car?

ianobrien

nz039926 wrote: »

On another thread found the following:
The Wiki item says:

Never trust Wiki for anything. As you have found, two artices there give conflicting info...

Also, I know what's in my Almera, and my one doesn't have variable valve timing.

nz039926 wrote: »

If the 1.5 hasn't got VVT, then I'd love to know what the electrical connection goes to in the chain end of the cam cover.

It's for the cam timing/phase/unsure of the correct name but it's to keep an eye on the cam position sensor. As I said, the ECU checks to see that the cam & crank are in correct allignment. It uses this sensor for this.

nz039926 wrote: »

Back to the OP's problem,

You are the OP, aren't you?

JHMEG

ianobrien wrote: »

Opps, A bit of brain fade there. I was thinking of the early Honda VTEC system with the two cam profiles and the switch that engages at approx 5800rpm-ish

Yes, I know you were

nz039926

Nationwide autocentre saying now I have to pay for the part even I didn't want it as it's coming from Europe.
Should the part have been taken out in the first place?

Please advice me.

Gary ITR

nz039926 wrote: »

Nationwide autocentre saying now I have to pay for the part even I didn't want it as it's coming from Europe.
Should the part have been taken out in the first place?

Please advice me.

Did you give them the go ahead to do the work?

nz039926

Onkle wrote: »

Did you give them the go ahead to do the work?

Agreed for them to order the part under the assumption mine wasn't working. Now not sure if my part wasn't working, and not sure if they should have taken it out in the first place.
Please advice.

Drummerboy08

But you agreed that they could order the part, so why shouldnt you pay for it? If you were not sure about what was going on, you should have asked there and then IMO.

nz039926

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

But you agreed that they could order the part, so why shouldnt you pay for it? If you were not sure about what was going on, you should have asked there and then IMO.

Some people adviced me:
"they incorrectly diagnosed the part as faulty through their lack of expertise."

Gary ITR

I think you need to find out if your car has VVT. Best thing to do would be to give a Nissan dealer a ring and ask if your car has VVT. If it does then you'll have to pay for the part, if not then you should just take your car back from these guys

nz039926

Some more inof:
The part got cancelled.

The part in question is "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" which is no 7 in this illustration (1320AU00A):
http://nissan4u.com/parts/almera_uk_...llustration_2/

I've got a feeling somepeople were giving advice thinking it was the solenoid part which is no 4 in the above illustration(237968UU0V).
I spoke again to the garage and they are saying now that managed to "dismantle it" and lined it up but not sure if it won't lock up in a week or a year! and they won't guarantee their work now

They said the timing chain was really loose and that's now replaced, phew!
But am I making a mistake by asking them to put the old "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" back on?

nz039926

Garage (NAC) just phoned me now and they said the part got shipped and I'll have to pay the cost because I agreed to it verbally.
But I only agreed to it because they said it was faulty.
Don't think I'll be using NAC again.
I don't think my part was faulty but don't think I can prove that.
They said no further work will be done on the car till the bill is paid.

Any advice please?

JHMEG

nz039926 wrote: »

Garage (NAC) just phoned me now and they said the part got shipped and I'll have to pay the cost because I agreed to it verbally.

It can be returned.

nz039926

JHMEG wrote: »

It can be returned.

Nationwide Autocentre said it was ordered from Nissan europe and the latter won't return any products.
Again, I agreed to them ordering it because they said my part was faulty. I really think it wasn't faulty and I know it'll be difficult to prove that because they can easily damage it.
My theory they have enough connections and they can easily get rid off it somehow, if they manage to charge me they'll lose my custom and I'll do my best so anyone I know won't use them.

Mr.Diagnostic

OP, the garage told you the part was faulty. They had inspected it and, one would assume, are qualified to make that judgement. A few total strangers on the internet, who have not seen the car, told you that the diagnosis was in correct and that particular part is not fitted to the car.
Based on this you both questioned and instructed the garage. If they have taken umbrage it is hardly surprising. You instructed them on what way to do the job and as such it is only right that you pay for it. You also instructed them to order the part on your behalf so it is again only right that you pay for it. They should not be at the loss of the value of the part because you did not allow them fit it. If they have told you that the part cannot be returned they are correct, as long as the part was correctly supplied.

If you still doubt that the part was required then take the car back without it fitted and get someone else to look at it. If it needs it at least you will have it. If not, then you can deal with the garage harshly.

I would have to wonder if your best course of action would be to ring the garage, explain that you had bad advice and apologise. Then try and work out a deal on the labour to get the part fitted.

I believe you have made a rod for your own back here.

beam99

The garage should be able to do an active test on the vvt system, that looks to be the same set up as the toyota vvti system. Going off the picture nz039936 has posted, the vvt sprocket on the end of no2 camshaft is the one in question, the inlet side, the system works on oil pressure, the ECU sends a single to the valve solenoid {NO 4 } which triggers the vvt sensor on NO 2 camshaft. All they have to do is when the engine is ticking over is to apply voltage to the solenoid valve, the valve will click and if the engine cuts out the system is working, if the engine stays running the sprocket is faulty.

colm_mcm

I'm 99.9% sure the European vesion of the 1.5 engine hasn't got VVT.

Mr.Diagnostic

There was a change in bhp from 07/2002 but both versions were the QG15DE engine. I have data listed for both variable and non, both with the same engine code. It looks like the variable was fitted from 07/2002 and the OP’s is 2003.

That info I checked was from two very reliable databases.

Gary ITR

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

There was a change in bhp from 07/2002 but both versions were the QG15DE engine. I have data listed for both variable and non, both with the same engine code. It looks like the variable was fitted from 07/2002 and the OP’s is 2003.

That info I checked was from two very reliable databases.

Thanks for clearing that up

nz039926

Does the "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" need to be removed when replacing a stretched "Timing Chain" on a Nissan Almera?

Thank you.

beam99

No there should be no reason to remove the sprocket, when fitting the chain.

nz039926

beam99 wrote: »

No there should be no reason to remove the sprocket, when fitting the chain.

Thaks for your reply.

In that case, I don't understand why the Nationwide Autocentre decided to remove it.
My only explanation is they didn't know what they were doing.

Surely I can say: I asked for the Timing Chain to be replaced, and since the sprocket is not part of the job, I don't require it.

I know they won't let me even tow my car until I pay for the sprocket.

Mr.Diagnostic

beam99 wrote: »

No there should be no reason to remove the sprocket, when fitting the chain.

You say there should be no reason to remove it.

I just checked the instructions for doing this chain. They state that you should remove the cam pulleys.
They also clearly show that the inlet is variable.

OP, do you not think you have had enough bad advice in this thread already?

nz039926

I have car which is not working a potential bill of 1300 or higher and trying to figure out the best out of this mess.

Still convinced Nationwide Autocentre don't know what they are doing and there was nothing wrong with my "Sprocket-camshaft, intake"

Do you think they needed to remove the Sprocket-camshaft, intake ?
Even if the answer is YES, as I said before still think my part was working fine.


They called a mechanic from Honda garage to put it back! If it was "ceased up", the Honda mechanic would be able to sort it out.

Do you have link to replacing a timing chain, all I can find is this:
http://www.almeraowners.com/showthread.php?t=27552&highlight=timing+chain

Thanks in advance.

martinr5232

You left your car into a garage to have a job done they stripped down the engine and told you that another component needed to be replaced.

The garage gave you a quote on the extra part needed you gave them the go ahead to order that part.

You then came on here and got advice from people who probably never looked under the bonnet of a car never mind got their hands dirty and you are going back and forth to either the mechanic or the service manager telling them how to do their job.

Not trying to have a go but the job is hard enough without having to deal with armchair mechanics.

Now if I was doing this job and I found the hub seized I would not even think about freeing it up and putting it back in.

The reason for that is if something happens the hub down the line your engine is scrap and you would be back to me saying I fu**ed up your engine and you want it sorted.

My advice let them do what you left your car in to them to do and fix it.

Mr.Diagnostic

I am not familiar with this particular engine but the instructions I have state the pulleys should be removed and I have no reason to doubt that.

I have no idea if the part was needed or not, no more than you do or anyone on boards. It seems to me that the situation has been complicated because you acted on incorrect advice you got here. Its unfortunate but its of your own making to at least some extent and you have to deal with it. Its not an easy situation to sort out.

One thing that I think is very wrong is how you keep naming the garage. I think you should wait until you know they wronged you before doing that. Your gut feeling is not enough.

You could ask the garage if they would allow you bring someone to inspect the car. If so, then find someone to look at it.
You could go with your gut that there is nothing wrong with the part and get them to finish the job with the old part then get it looked at later. If they were wrong then you would have to deal with them.
You could tow it out now and get someone to look at it.
The old part is your property. If it is still out of the car you could go and collect it then get someone to inspect it for you.

I can’t give a link to the info I mentioned as it is not available for public access but if you tell me what info you are looking for I will post up or send you a screenshot.

If you need advice on anything, professional is always best. That is what you should seek. There again, I am just another stranger on the internet

JHMEG

nz039926 wrote: »

In that case, I don't understand why the Nationwide Autocentre decided to remove it.

What are Nationwide Autocentre exactly? Their website looks like they are a chain of garages in the UK that are not marque specific?

nz039926

JHMEG wrote: »

What are Nationwide Autocentre exactly? Their website looks like they are a chain of garages in the UK that are not marque specific?

They are UK not market specific, people often used them for MOTs & services.
Only used them because theAA recommended them, eventhough their quote wasn't the cheapest.
I didn't know the 2 companies were linked till now.

ianobrien

I've just checked.

The instructions that I got on how to remove the VVT hub from the cam were to apply air pressure (I can't remember if it was 3 or 30 bar) to the VVT oil inlet (the VVT in the VVT hub works off oil pressure) and "wiggle/twist/turn" the cam, and when you here a "click" it can be pulled free. I was also told that it's very fragile and if pressure is needed, a tap from a plastic hammer only.....

I was also asked why was I taking it off? Was I changing the inlet cam or something?

It's just a piece of info for you.

Mr.Diagnostic

ianobrien wrote: »

I've just checked.

The instructions that I got on how to remove the VVT hub from the cam were to apply air pressure (I can't remember if it was 3 or 30 bar) to the VVT oil inlet (the VVT in the VVT hub works off oil pressure) and "wiggle/twist/turn" the cam, and when you here a "click" it can be pulled free. I was also told that it's very fragile and if pressure is needed, a tap from a plastic hammer only.....

I was also asked why was I taking it off? Was I changing the inlet cam or something?

It's just a piece of info for you.

I think you misunderstood whoever gave you the instructions. Air pressure is required to move the VVT into position not to actually remove it. OP posted that the garage reported it was seized. If they were to follow correct procedure to remove it they would have discovered this at this stage of the job.

It may be possible to do the job without removing the VVT but if the factory procedure states it should be removed then that is the correct way. I don’t think you can fault the garage for that.

ianobrien

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

I think you misunderstood whoever gave you the instructions. Air pressure is required to move the VVT into position not to actually remove it. OP posted that the garage reported it was seized. If they were to follow correct procedure to remove it they would have discovered this at this stage of the job.

It may be possible to do the job without removing the VVT but if the factory procedure states it should be removed then that is the correct way. I don’t think you can fault the garage for that.

Thanks - I'll phone him back and check

Mr.Diagnostic

ianobrien wrote: »

Thanks - I'll phone him back and check

As a matter of interest, why? What are you trying to prove?

nz039926

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why? What are you trying to prove?

It's a lesson for me, I'll pay for the part and will never use the garage again.
But if my old part is OK I'd like to put it back. The garage at the moment are refusing to let me have the part so that I can take it to a Nissan to verify if it's defective.

Just a matter of interest if this part ceased up, what affect would it have on the car?

Mr.Diagnostic

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why? What are you trying to prove?

nz039926, that question was not meant for you.

nz039926

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

nz039926, that question was not meant for you.

Sorry, I shouldn't have quoated a question you asked somebody esle, but really I'm interested to you know your opinion. Thanks.

nz039926

I'm really puzzled now.
I asked for my old part so that I can get Nissan to verify if it was faulty.
All of the sudden now the garage are saying they're putting the old one back and they will not be charging me for the one that they ordered on my behalf!

ianobrien

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

As a matter of interest, why? What are you trying to prove?

Well, the contributions that you have made to discussions here in the past were usually correct. I want to see first did I hear him wrong, or second, did I get duff info.

Gererally you've spoken sense here and based on previous contributions from you, I believe you.

At the moment, my source is not answering his phone.....

nz039926

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

I think you misunderstood whoever gave you the instructions. Air pressure is required to move the VVT into position not to actually remove it. OP posted that the garage reported it was seized. If they were to follow correct procedure to remove it they would have discovered this at this stage of the job.

It may be possible to do the job without removing the VVT but if the factory procedure states it should be removed then that is the correct way. I don’t think you can fault the garage for that.

What's the correct procedure for fitting a "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" ?
Mechanic is saying if 3 teeth out, it doesn't lock.
But if he follows the Nissan's instructions it does lockup.
Does this make sense to anyone?

nz039926

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

I am not familiar with this particular engine but the instructions I have state the pulleys should be removed and I have no reason to doubt that.

I have no idea if the part was needed or not, no more than you do or anyone on boards. It seems to me that the situation has been complicated because you acted on incorrect advice you got here. Its unfortunate but its of your own making to at least some extent and you have to deal with it. Its not an easy situation to sort out.

One thing that I think is very wrong is how you keep naming the garage. I think you should wait until you know they wronged you before doing that. Your gut feeling is not enough.

You could ask the garage if they would allow you bring someone to inspect the car. If so, then find someone to look at it.
You could go with your gut that there is nothing wrong with the part and get them to finish the job with the old part then get it looked at later. If they were wrong then you would have to deal with them.
You could tow it out now and get someone to look at it.
The old part is your property. If it is still out of the car you could go and collect it then get someone to inspect it for you.

I can’t give a link to the info I mentioned as it is not available for public access but if you tell me what info you are looking for I will post up or send you a screenshot.

If you need advice on anything, professional is always best. That is what you should seek. There again, I am just another stranger on the internet

Really would like to hear from you regarding the correct procedure to fit a Nissan Almera "Sprocket-camshaft, intake"
Any links, instructions or screen shots are welcome.

Thanks in advance.

Mr.Diagnostic

nz039926 wrote: »

I'm really puzzled now.
I asked for my old part so that I can get Nissan to verify if it was faulty.
All of the sudden now the garage are saying they're putting the old one back and they will not be charging me for the one that they ordered on my behalf!

nz039926 wrote: »

What's the correct procedure for fitting a "Sprocket-camshaft, intake" ?
Mechanic is saying if 3 teeth out, it doesn't lock.
But if he follows the Nissan's instructions it does lockup.
Does this make sense to anyone?

It seems to me that there are far too many unknowns to comment accurately. I suspect there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than is being posted here. Did the garage attempt to refit a part that they diagnosed as faulty because you told them to?

You posted that the garage was fitting the old part. Then you posted that the old part is not working as it should. Now you want instruction on how to fit the part.

You seem to be forming opinions based on a lack of knowledge and on poor advice. If you expressed these opinions to the garage then you have complicated matters greatly.

I will stick with the advice I gave you earlier. The old part is your property. Go to the garage and collect it. Do not leave without it. Find someone to look at it and tell you if it is faulty or not. Also find out if it is worn or damaged. Then you will know how to proceed.

nz039926

Mr.Diagnostic wrote: »

It seems to me that there are far too many unknowns to comment accurately. I suspect there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than is being posted here. Did the garage attempt to refit a part that they diagnosed as faulty because you told them to?

You posted that the garage was fitting the old part. Then you posted that the old part is not working as it should. Now you want instruction on how to fit the part.

You seem to be forming opinions based on a lack of knowledge and on poor advice. If you expressed these opinions to the garage then you have complicated matters greatly.

I will stick with the advice I gave you earlier. The old part is your property. Go to the garage and collect it. Do not leave without it. Find someone to look at it and tell you if it is faulty or not. Also find out if it is worn or damaged. Then you will know how to proceed.

Frankly, I don't know if it was faulty or not. Few things made suspicious that the garage wasn't sure either, but they decided to tell me it was faulty because it is easy for them to do so.
As soon as I asked them to let me have the part so that I can take it to Nissan to inspect it, they decided they were putting it back!!

My gut feeling, the part is not faulty and they don't know how to put it back.
That's why wanted to know if "the 3 teeth" thing made a sense to you.
They are waiting for their senior technician to come next week to tell them if the part is faulty or if they are putting it back incorrectly.

Thanks.

Mr.Diagnostic

nz039926 wrote: »

That's why wanted to know if "the 3 teeth" thing made a sense to you.

That, if true, could nean that it is faulty. Equally it could mean that it has been put together wrongly.

nz039926 wrote: »

They are waiting for their senior technician to come next week to tell them if the part is faulty or if they are putting it back incorrectly.

Did they actually tell you this or is this the impression you got from something they said? If they told you this then that looks bad for them.


As an aside, is this your regular garage? If not, do you have a regular garage?