My Car Was Sold Without My Permission

Westhub · 04-09-2009 12:01pm #1

Hi all,
i have very serious issue with <snip>a garage</snip> at the moment. I gave my car to <snip>a guy</snip> (one of the owners). Now it seems <snip>the garage</snip> is no more existing, my car is gone, i got no money from them, no phones are working. Talked to Gards already, but if anybody has any information what is going on with that company, please inform me. Preciate all contacts - is very important. Thank You very much.
Westhub

dudara · 04-09-2009 12:35pm

Post split from thread and moved to Motors

dudara

Drummerboy08 · 04-09-2009 12:36pm

Wow. That sounds fairly serious.

Why exactly did you give them the car?

Westhub · 04-09-2009 12:45pm

i left country, and moved to Switzerland. I couldnt stay and sell it myself. I bought a car from <snip>the guy</snip> ealier, and he seemed to be serious Car Seller. So i asked him for help.
I gave him my car on 09.06.2009 with unfilled logbook, to be sold. i have signed and stamped ivoice from him. As per Revenue, car was sold on 04.08.2009 to a male in Dublin - they did not give any details more to Myself on the phone.
Any contact with <snip>the guy</snip> from <snip>the garage</snip> broke up about month ago and <snip>the garage</snip> seems to be closed up, but they are still registered. Anyway, Gardai are chasing after that case, and my Solicitor is doing whatever he can.
If somebody could help me in any way please, it would be very appreciated.
Thank You All for Your help
Hubert

Stevie Dakota · 04-09-2009 12:49pm

Thats shocking, and people wonder why there is a rather jaundiced view of the motor trade here?

niceirishfella · 04-09-2009 12:50pm

Well, sounds like you have it in hand, hope it works out for you.
Have to considered hiring a PI to track this fcuker down and then give the details to the guards?

Drummerboy08 · 04-09-2009 12:53pm

Stevie Dakota wrote: »

Thats shocking, and people wonder why there is a rather jaundiced view of the motor trade here?

Now now, no need to tar us all with the one brush!

Saab Ed · 04-09-2009 12:54pm

Its [EMAIL="f@ck3rs"]f@ck3rs[/EMAIL] like that who give the trade its bad reputation. Really sorry to hear about that OP. Hope it all works out. PS We're not all like that.

Drummerboy08 · 04-09-2009 12:55pm

OP, just thinking, it wont be hard to track down the whereabouts of your car now. With a small bit of info, even I could get the registered name and address.

The real problem here is tracking down the owners of the garage. They could be anywhere, along with your money!

robtri · 04-09-2009 12:57pm

Drummerboy08 wrote: »

Now now, no need to tar us all with the one brush!

out of the trade myself now... but unfortuantely its stunts like this that are coming more and more to light and the few (and I stress the few) bad apples are giving the whole trade a rotten name... its close to being classed as bad as banks at the moment..

Westhub · 04-09-2009 1:23pm

His name could be <snip>spelled several ways</snip>...cant really remember, anyway...:(

mcscrub · 04-09-2009 1:40pm

I found <snip>another thread</snip> in the consumer section of boards
<snip>
Very intersting - about the same company I think

-Chris- · 04-09-2009 7:03pm

OP (or anyone else), do you know have <snip>the garage</snip> gone bust or did they just p*ss off?

If they just shut their doors and p*ssed off with your car, you're right to chase the people who owned the garage via a solicitor.
If they've gone bust then more than likely you'll have to try and get your car back via the liquidator and the courts.

It's an important distinction.

dingding · 04-09-2009 7:20pm

Can the OP not just report the car as stolen and let the gardai take it from who ever purchased it.

civildefence · 04-09-2009 7:29pm

-Chris- wrote: »

OP (or anyone else), do you know have <snip>the garage</snip> gone bust or did they just p*ss off?

If they just shut their doors and p*ssed off with your car, you're right to chase the people who owned the garage via a solicitor.
If they've gone bust then more than likely you'll have to try and get your car back via the liquidator and the courts.

It's an important distinction.

They were originally further up <snip>the</snip> Road, they vanished for a few years and they then moved into <snip>another garage's</snip> old building, opposite <snip>a business</snip>, though only for a few months and gone again so I wouldn't be surprised if they did piss off.

junkyard · 04-09-2009 7:49pm

dingding wrote: »

Can the OP not just report the car as stolen and let the gardai take it from who ever purchased it.

Sorry for your trouble OP but it doesn't look good to be honest, the Gardai will turn around and say to you the fact that you gave the dealer the paperwork with the car it's a civil matter and not a stolen car so they'll have no more interest in the case and if the garage is gone bust that's it. I had a similar thing happen to me a year or so ago, the guy who caught me signs him self in and out of the nut house whenever suits him.:(

paddydriver · 04-09-2009 9:43pm

Westhub wrote: »

i left country, and moved to Switzerland. I couldnt stay and sell it myself

You're not Derek Quinlan by chance? I think NAMA wants to catch up with you soon...;)

Westhub · 06-09-2009 6:07pm

Ho, Paddy, i am not.
So, Gardai with my solicitor are investigating the case...the car was sold illegaly, because before <snip>the garage</snip> was to sell the car, i should be notified and sign personally the paperwork. <snip>The Guy</snip>, that is his correct name, falsed my sign and sold the car illegaly - current owner should not buy car without my acceptance. My solicitor says, in this case there is chance to get the car back from the current owner...i do not know if Gardai already took the car of the him and sealed in the yard.
Anyway,
<snip>the garage</snip> were previously in Finglas and were called <snip>a different name</snip>...will be disaster...once i get him, that <snip>guy</snip>, i will break his neck in a second.:mad:

ScouseMouse · 06-09-2009 6:36pm

If you didnt sign the log book, and did not consent to the sale of the car to the new owner then it has to be classed as theft.

Make a complaint to the cops along those lines. They will be able to trace the car as it was registered and then you should get your car back. It will be a loss to the new owner that they bought a car from a guy who didnt own it.

Just remember that you gave the garage the car to display it and find you a buyer. You did not consent to a sale.

Thats theft and they have to get it back for you.

farva · 06-09-2009 10:41pm

Assuming that <snip>the garage</snip> or <snip>their previous incarnation</snip> or whatever they are called are registered companies with the Companies Registration Office (CRO) it shouldnt be too hard to track your man down. If they are just trading names of a holding company you can so a business names search to get the holding company's name.

You can do a directors search under the name <snip>of the guy</snip> and find his last registered home address, if he's not a director of the companies and is say a sales man you could then get the company's annual return (it's called a B1) which would the names and addresses of all shareholders and directors of the company.

Westhub · 07-09-2009 5:47am

thank You guys,
that is exactly, as You say. Gardai are doing their job. And last adress of Mr. Wiseguy <snip>guy</snip> is known to myself and Gardai.
We'll see what happens.

bazman · 07-09-2009 9:15am

Did a search on www.cro.ie

<snip>name and address of the company in question</snip>

You can get company printout for 3.50.

Follow up with new owner if possible - at the very least to confirm price paid. Don't see how you could take car off him as you signed VRC. It hasn't been stolen - it's just that you're owed money from sale?

Drummerboy08 · 07-09-2009 9:25am

I dont think he did sign the VLC, but maybe i'm wrong on that one.

Westhub · 07-09-2009 9:55am

No, i did not signed the log book - ownership change details. <snip>The guy</snip> falsed my sign: that is point, where the crime begins and i can require Gardai to get the car off current owner - illegal sale - but it is not that easy. The thing was, he supposed to notyfie me, that the car is to be sold now and i should go to ireland and sign that paperwork.

bazman · 07-09-2009 10:10am

My misunderstanding - chase him down - good luck

niceirishfella · 07-09-2009 10:15am

Westhub wrote: »

No, i did not signed the log book - ownership change details. <snip>The guy</snip> falsed my sign: that is point, where the crime begins and i can require Gardai to get the car off current owner - illegal sale - but it is not that easy. The thing was, he supposed to notyfie me, that the car is to be sold now and i should go to ireland and sign that paperwork.

In that case then, have the car taken back into your posession,repo style.
Then apply for a copy ownership doc ?

Abelloid · 07-09-2009 10:43am

niceirishfella wrote: »

In that case then, have the car taken back into your posession,repo style.
Then apply for a copy ownership doc ?

Looking forward to the 'car bought through dealer repo'd, where do I stand?' thread already.

galwaytt · 07-09-2009 11:41am

JustinOval wrote: »

Looking forward to the 'car bought through dealer repo'd, where do I stand?' thread already.

..doesn't matter. If you "buy" something from someone who doesn't own it.......you haven't bought it at all.......it remains the property of the original person.

On the other hand, I have this for sale, will take best offer

Sizzler · 07-09-2009 12:24pm

galwaytt wrote: »

..doesn't matter. If you "buy" something from someone who doesn't own it.......you haven't bought it at all.......it remains the property of the original person.

+1

Fairly straightforward or am I missing something? It was your car, you didnt sell it so the lad who has it now does NOT own it. Cops should be chasing down the guy that has your car, not neccessarily this garage guy. Ultimately the guy who bought the car from him is the guy thats going to be out of pocket as he will have got zip all for his money.

Cops should be knocking on the door of the chap who has your car now and driving it away.Whats the delay

niceirishfella · 07-09-2009 12:35pm

Sizzler wrote: »

+1

Fairly straightforward or am I missing something? It was your car, you didnt sell it so the lad who has it now does NOT own it. Cops should be chasing down the guy that has your car, not neccessarily this garage guy. Ultimately the guy who bought the car from him is the guy thats going to be out of pocket as he will have got zip all for his money.

Cops should be knocking on the door of the chap who has your car now and driving it away.Whats the delay

+1

But the cops will view this as a civil matter.
However, the car still legally belongs to you OP.
I'd hire a hire tow truck and get that car back in my posession as to be honest, you're NEVER going to get it back any other way.

Sizzler · 07-09-2009 12:41pm

niceirishfella wrote: »

+1

But the cops will view this as a civil matter.
However, the car still legally belongs to you OP.
I'd hire a hire tow truck and get that car back in my posession as to be honest, you're NEVER going to get it back any other way.

Not neccessarily, if you get a decent copper on board he'll sort it.

Know a lad who bought a car recently and got a knock to say that it was stolen and the car was driven away there and then by the guards. Slightly more serious but still same principle applies, i.e. the car still belongs to the OP!

-Chris- · 07-09-2009 12:44pm

I'm going to close this thread temporarily pending legal advice.

BRB.

-Chris- · 07-09-2009 8:38pm

Thread reopened.

Details of the garage in question removed based on legal advice received.

I'll leave the thread open so people can share their opinions and so the OP can keep us updated, but if anyone names the garage or person in question again I'll lock immediately and ban the poster in question.

niceirishfella · 07-09-2009 9:28pm

OP, do you still have a Spare Key for this car in Question?

Abelloid · 08-09-2009 9:18am

galwaytt wrote: »

..doesn't matter. If you "buy" something from someone who doesn't own it.......you haven't bought it at all.......it remains the property of the original person.

On the other hand, I have this for sale, will take best offer

I know, I'm not suggesting the current 'owner' should keep the car, I'm just pointing out he or she is in for a shock, and may even turn up on here looking for advice.

Unless of course the dealer signed it over and whispered 'it's not really mine to sell, but you have the paperwork now so you'll be grand' *wink*

mullingar · 08-09-2009 9:35am

Is the car currently classified as stolen by the Guards?

Do the Guards know the address of the person who the car was mis-sold to?

If they dont know where it is and if it is now classified as stolen, hopefully the ANPR cameras will locate it

Westhub · 08-09-2009 9:44am

Whatever he did and however he sold my car without notyfing myself in any way, paperwork was filled and signed by unallowed person - and that is crime in this case. Gardai agreed with me in this point. Whatever they will do now, i have no other way, just to trust them - hopefully they will take the car off the road and seal it on the Garda parking place. They know all details of current owner and they have meeting today in relation to that case.

On the other side, there will be really shock for the guy who owns my car at the moment, but for Christ love - i cannot be responsible for other peopple. It could be as well, that this person will come to me with an offer and pay 2nd time for the car to keep it(of course if he will have that cash) - later it is to be his thing to chase him - that is what my solicitor is suggesting. What are You thinking about that kind of solution?

ford jedi · 08-09-2009 10:46am

just out of curiousity what car was it?

Eoin · 08-09-2009 10:54am

Westhub - I know you're angry, and rightly so - but do not mention his name again.

Westhub · 08-09-2009 10:58am

it is 2003 Mazda 6, so nice car...

The Muppet · 08-09-2009 11:40am

This may not be as clear cut as it appears regarding the current ownership. The op gave his car to the garage to sell, it was not stolen. The Garage may well have been within their rights to sell the car.

The person I have most sympathy for in this instance is the guy that purchased the car. The op should go after the Garage/liquidator to get his money , not the other innocent victim.

Jumpy · 08-09-2009 11:42am

The Muppet wrote: »

This may not be as clear cut as it appears regarding the current ownership. The op gave his car to the garage to sell, it was not stolen. The Garage may well have been within their rights to sell the car.

The person I have most sympathy for in this instance is the guy that purchased the car. The op should go after the Garage/liquidator to get his money , not the other innocent victim.

It doesnt work that way.

The Muppet · 08-09-2009 11:49am

Jumpy wrote: »

It doesnt work that way.

Does it not? anytime I have purchased a used car from a garage the garage has signed the book not the previous registered owner. I think its not as clear cut as some think, The garda would just seize the car if it were. Even the ops solicitor said there was a "chance of getting the car back" that doesn't sound too convincing.

dlofnep · 08-09-2009 11:56am

Disgusting behaviour. I feel sorry for you and the guy who bought the car. He is going to be out of money. I hope you find the scumbag responsible for this.

niceirishfella · 08-09-2009 12:22pm

The Muppet wrote: »

Does it not? anytime I have purchased a used car from a garage the garage has signed the book not the previous registered owner. I think its not as clear cut as some think, The garda would just seize the car if it were. Even the ops solicitor said there was a "chance of getting the car back" that doesn't sound too convincing.

It does'nt apply here as the delaer was NOT the owner of the car (it wes not his own stock as such).

OldmanMondeo · 08-09-2009 12:34pm

Hold up, the OP gave his car to a "dealer" to sell for him. The "Dealer" sells the car but the OP doesn't get his money from the sale. Ok there is the fradulent signature from the "Dealer" to sell the car. He may have needed to sign the VLC to get the car sold quickley, many on here would want to see the vlc when buying a car and want it posted ASAP for insurance taxing etc. I think the car may just stay with the "new owner", with the OP having to chase the "Dealer" as an unpaid creditor, to which I am sorry to say I don't hold much hope for.

OP, good luck getting this resolved to your satisfaction ASAP.

Westhub · 08-09-2009 12:44pm

OldmanMondeo, that is not the case. The law says clearly, sign of current owner, also myself must be on log book last page. This was falsed by the garage owner, no notification of sale...that is crime here, what even Gardai confirmed. Illegal sale is nothing else than stealing the car. It is up to buer to be sure what and from whom he is buying - that is my understanding. We just stop predicting and wait what Gardai will say.

Kartale · 08-09-2009 12:44pm

Can the dealer not just say that he did pay OP cash for car and therefore has VLC. Word against word and all that?
Dealer would only need to send off RF105 to transfer to his garage: http://www.environ.ie/en/LocalGovernment/MotorTax/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,493,en.pdf
Sounds like a nightmare, i dont think OP will ever see his money again, unless some Garda takes pity & puts pressure on dealer.
RF105 still needs owners sig thou. so not sure, Good luck OP

Jumpy · 08-09-2009 12:53pm

The Muppet wrote: »

Does it not? anytime I have purchased a used car from a garage the garage has signed the book not the previous registered owner. I think its not as clear cut as some think, The garda would just seize the car if it were. Even the ops solicitor said there was a "chance of getting the car back" that doesn't sound too convincing.

I just sold my car to a dealer. You fill in a form which you then send to the Dept of the Environment. It lists the car in their name.

Westhub · 08-09-2009 1:12pm

My car was never transfered to garage. Last registered owner of it it is me.

OldmanMondeo · 08-09-2009 1:15pm

Westhub wrote: »

OldmanMondeo, that is not the case. The law says clearly, sign of current owner, also myself must be on log book last page. This was falsed by the garage owner, no notification of sale...that is crime here, what even Gardai confirmed. Illegal sale is nothing else than stealing the car. It is up to buer to be sure what and from whom he is buying - that is my understanding. We just stop predicting and wait what Gardai will say.

From buying and trading cars for myself, not dealer, I have in the past forgot to sign the VLC on change over, so technically all these cars I have not signed over are still mine? Sometimes I have seen the dealer sign the VLC, TBH if a pre-signed VLC was handed to me it would make no difference, unless the previous owner was there on handover with ID it could have been signed by the pope.

My man point is that I can see where the "difficulties" would be in this case, but I do hope that it works in both your favour and the guy who now has the car.

My Car Was Sold Without My Permission

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