LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

Turtwig

So,

I had a communique with the aliens again this morning, they were saying what told God Meglome's friend is true. We should vote yes, but not only God is saying to vote yes. There also many other people who think we should vote yes but have been blackmailed by sinister selfish organisations into changing their position. These include most anti Lisbon EU campaigners such as Coir and the like. It truly shameful that they have been blackmailed but rest assured Gardai are covertly working to find the preps responsible for such a sinister crime. In the meantime, inside sources as these organisations have revealed, secretly, that we should vote YES but are scared of telling the general public to do so. One insider revealed how terrifying the whole ordeal is for him and his family but he also stated how the brave folks in the various organisations are working covertly to insure the truth is followed. He revealed how their campaign has been nothing but a satire and he said 'Try finding any of our info in the actual treaty, I dare you to try, cos you won't; it's simply not in there!'.
When asked why these organisations were been deliberately forced to spread known lies by getting us to vote No, he replied :
'They have a vested interest in a failed Ireland'

meglome

theasylumkey wrote: »

So to summarise;

The man who headed the european constitution is pis.sed off at the way the Lisbon Treaty is hiding from the ordinary public what was rejected by the French & Dutch as it will lead public opinion to the conclusion that what is being presented to them is not transparent.

This itself shows that the european union is actually insidious in nature to achieve its goals which are not in the public interest.

We don't know what he meant as he's not here to explain himself. Go ask him if that's what he meant.

Reforms to the EU have been needed for years so it isn't a shock to anyone that many of the reforms in Lisbon are the same ones that were in the defunct EU constitution. Why are so many No campaigners fixated that the French and Dutch rejected the EU constitution, which was then changed to meet their concerns and the reforms used in Lisbon but with all the state like language removed. Why would you need to get rid of the reforms when that's not the reason they voted No? And why is it these same No campaigners 'forget' that Spain and Luxembourg voted Yes to that treaty.

You or anyone with a fairly basic grasp of English can read the Lisbon treaty, it won't be interesting but it is doable.

theasylumkey wrote: »

You have successfully concreted the argument to Vote NO as why should the Treay have to conceal its content in order to be passed?

It's a detailed legal document how can anything be concealed? It's there for everyone to read and if you don't want to do that there are good guides to it you can read instead.

theasylumkey wrote: »

1. It is the same body of text really that has been rejected now three times by three seperate countrys which tells you in lay mans terms that the powers that be dont give a damn what you think all that is required from you is to agree.

The defunct EU constitution was voted in by the Spain and Luxembourg and rejected by France and the Netherlands. So what are you talking about?

theasylumkey wrote: »

2. It is not in the interest of the political establishment to have the general population understand the content of the document as if they do it will be rejected again (not acceptable).

And amazingly I was able to read it, me, one of the general population. Almost seems like you're wrong or something.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

Ah the 200 billion figure. I've been looking for a month for anyone to explain where this figure comes from and shock horror I can't even come close. Unfortunately this number is utter fantasy and while I can find plenty of people saying it not one of them can explain where it comes from.

Strange that......its from the IFO (irish fishermens organisation)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0320/1224243121561.html

Again i am surprised that there is so much Denial from the public & trust in the entire body politic of europe that the best interests of ireland is at the heart of all of this.......wake up.....why would the rest of europe really give a rats what happens to ireland we are an inconvenience to them that happen to have lots of fish & gas.......im finished debating this with moron's......keep your head up your ar.se chief;)

meglome

theasylumkey wrote: »

Strange that......its from the IFO (irish fishermens organisation)

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0320/1224243121561.html

I'm not arguing that no one uses the figure of 200 billion or even 300 billion. I'm saying that not one of them explains where they got it from. I posted a chart which shows all the fish catches and there nothing on it that even remotely comes close to these ridiculous figures.

Maybe you can explain where these figure actually come from?

theasylumkey wrote: »

Again i am surprised that there is so much Denial from the public & trust in the entire body politic of europe that the best interests of ireland is at the heart of all of this.......wake up.....why would the rest of europe really give a rats what happens to ireland we are an inconvenience to them that happen to have lots of fish & gas.......im finished debating this with moron's......keep your head up your ar.se chief;)

Ah instead of properly explaining we're straight down to the insults. I'm sure the conspiracy is much more fun than the boring old truth.

So far we can't explain where this fish figure comes from. Maybe you'd care to explain how much gas we have exactly?

Show me even one thing the EU has tried to force any EU country to do?

drunken_munky52

meglome wrote: »

I know, there are loads of videos that show the world is run by reptilians who are ready and willing to oppress and enslave us. I dunno what we'd do without anonymous internet videos that tell us the 'truth'.

Yes... the politicians, the bankers, the advertising firms... these are all saints, they would never lie, they have nothing to worry about in this life or the next... safe as houses they are and will continue to manipulate the populations perceptions for their own self preservation as long as the collective consciousness you are a member of stay tuned in to their their frequency of thinking.

meglome wrote: »

Since the Lisbon treaty makes the EU more accountable then voting Yes is the only way to go. Thanks Rtdh for clearing that up. :eek:

Giving people more power is not a way of making them more accountable.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

Show me even one thing the EU has tried to force any EU country to do?

Ireland to Ratify the Lisbon Treaty.......vote was cast.......not acceptable.

Tell me for arguments sake if this referendum comes back No will it be put to the people again?

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Ireland to Ratify the Lisbon Treaty.......vote was cast.......not acceptable.

Tell me for arguments sake if this referendum comes back No will it be put to the people again?

Well, if people keep voting 'no' for reasons that aren't on the treaty -

Yes it will.:p

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

Well, if people keep voting 'no' for reasons that aren't on the treaty -

Yes it will.:p

Ah yes were getting to the root of the reason's why it is being re run......the irish electorate are dumb paddys that obviously didnt understand it the first time around so lets just make sure....round 2, 3, 4 etc. keep going until you Micks get it.

Now using your logic for arguments sake if a Yes vote is returned this time will it be entertained by the ploiticians if the No side say that the electorate didnt understand what they were voting on & this should be re run????

NOT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL!

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Ah yes were getting to the root of the reason's why it is being re run......the irish electorate are dumb paddys that obviously didnt understand it the first time around so lets just make sure....round 2, 3, 4 etc. keep going until you Micks get it.

Now using your logic for arguments sake if a Yes vote is returned this time will it be entertained by the ploiticians if the No side say that the electorate didnt understand what they were voting on & this should be re run????

NOT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL!

Arghh you're missing the point,

When Ireland vote no, the treaty goes back to the Eu. Ireland are asked to explain why they voted no so the folks back at Europe can discuss altering articles of the treaty. However, as the reason most folk voted no has nothing to do with the actual treaty the treaty will just keep coming back more or the less the same..

If a yes vote is passed, the treaty is approved, there is no reason to ask where people disagreed with it.

So vote no for honest reasons and then we'll get a better treaty, the thing is the treaty is damm good, but if you can find a genuine flaw in there by all means point it out and Europe will consider renegotiating it.

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

Arghh you're missing the point,

When Ireland vote no, the treaty goes back to the Eu. Ireland are asked to explain why they voted no so the folks back at Europe can discuss altering articles of the treaty. However, as the reason most folk voted no has nothing to do with the actual treaty the treaty will just keep coming back more or the less the same..

If a yes vote is passed, the treaty is approved, there is no reason to ask where people disagreed with it.

So vote no for honest reasons and then we'll get a better treaty, the thing is the treaty is damm good, but if you can find a genuine flaw in there by all means point it out and Europe will consider renegotiating it.

OK so on that note all the waffle coming out of our politicians that this that & the other being guaranteed is completley meaningless.......when our boys in green set up a committee to find out why a no vote was returned the reasons gathered (by your own word) have not been addressed as you have just admitted it is the same document!!!!!

You cant see the wood for the trees......

Now you missed the point also, i said if it is put to the EU after a yes vote is returned that the people didnt understand what they were voting on will it be run again? No is the answer before you reply. Therefore it is not being run in a fair manner.......as i said........vote was cast.....NO.....not acceptable.

Run_to_da_hills

EU funding 'Orwellian' artificial intelligence plan to monitor public for "abnormal behaviour"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html

I guess all those that mention bad things about the EU or lisbon are fu*ked :eek:

More on the subject.

drunken_munky52

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

EU funding 'Orwellian' artificial intelligence plan to monitor public for "abnormal behaviour"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html

I guess all those that mention bad things about the EU or lisbon are fu*ked :eek:

More on the subject.

All us un-connected batteries will soon be plugged back into the electricity grid then... no more "Youtube" videos that pose a threat to the instituations self preservation... we are like a computer virus to them trying to corrupt their program... they are the ones with the corrupt program, we are the AVGs of the world at the moment.

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Therefore it is not being run in a fair manner.......as i said........vote was cast.....NO.....not acceptable.

It is being run in a fair manner.
The Irish Government(and major political parties agree) have decided that it was in the best interest of the country to have a rerun. By definition, a free vote CANNOT be anti-democracy and so far the will of the nation has been respected by NOT ratifying the treaty.
Voting again is not unfair, it is simply democracy being put into action.
If 'yes' is voted there will most likely not be another referendum because the main opposition parties are not opposed to the treaty nor is the irish government, you could however petition towards getting another referendum run.
(The exact process eludes me at the moment, I'm sure though some other boardsie could tell you how this works..)

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

If 'yes' is voted there will most likely not be another referendum because the main opposition parties are not opposed to the treaty nor is the irish government, you could however petition towards getting another referendum run.
(The exact process eludes me at the moment, I'm sure though some other boardsie could tell you how this works..)

Now you see how far a petiton will go when it is sent to brussels for consideration to overturn a yes vote & run again for a potential rejection of this Treaty........straight into the shredder with it & dont delude yourself to the contrary. What the people think is irrelavant but they (the EU) have to maintain some kind of image that it is democratic hence hold a referendum but keep on going until the answer is returned yes & then it was voted for by the people. All above board & ship shape me heartys.
Now were all one big happy euro family with the euro flag flying full mast centre pole on official buildings with the tri colour gazing admiringly up to it to the left or right.

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Now you see how far a petiton will go when it is sent to brussels for consideration to overturn a yes vote & run again for a potential rejection of this Treaty........straight into the shredder with it & dont delude yourself to the contrary. What the people think is irrelavant but they (the EU) have to maintain some kind of image that it is democratic hence hold a referendum but keep on going until the answer is returned yes & then it was voted for by the people. All above board & ship shape me heartys.
Now were all one big happy euro family with the euro flag flying full mast centre pole on official buildings with the tri colour gazing admiringly up to it to the left or right.

I take it you want out of Europe completely then?


Why would it be sent to Brussels??


What the people think has been accepted for now, the treaty wasn't ratified. Yes, as long as the government and political parties think it is in our best interest to vote again, we will.

meglome

theasylumkey wrote: »

Ireland to Ratify the Lisbon Treaty.......vote was cast.......not acceptable.

The Irish government are legally entitled to ask us to vote again, in the same way that legally we have to hold a referendum on the treaty.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Tell me for arguments sake if this referendum comes back No will it be put to the people again?

Legally they could but they won't, there would be no point. When our government have carefully addressed the concern the Irish people on Lisbon and we'd then still vote No, really what would the point be. We'd still be voting for reasons that are not even in the treaty, what the hell can they do about that?

theasylumkey wrote: »

Ah yes were getting to the root of the reason's why it is being re run......the irish electorate are dumb paddys that obviously didnt understand it the first time around so lets just make sure....round 2, 3, 4 etc. keep going until you Micks get it.

The Irish people voted No to this treaty for a majority of reasons that were not even in the treaty. That would seem pretty silly to me.

theasylumkey wrote: »

Now using your logic for arguments sake if a Yes vote is returned this time will it be entertained by the ploiticians if the No side say that the electorate didnt understand what they were voting on & this should be re run????

NOT A SNOWBALLS CHANCE IN HELL!

I can't even figure out why you're voting No. How do you address the concerns of some people that don't make any sense or have any basis in reality?

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

EU funding 'Orwellian' artificial intelligence plan to monitor public for "abnormal behaviour"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/6210255/EU-funding-Orwellian-artificial-intelligence-plan-to-monitor-public-for-abnormal-behaviour.html

I guess all those that mention bad things about the EU or lisbon are fu*ked :eek:

More on the subject.

Sigh...So why don't you post the sections of the Lisbon treaty that do these things?

Rtdh you're just a spamfest. Either put up or shut-up, show the parts of the treaty that do these things or stop lying.

meglome

Malty_T wrote: »

I take it you want out of Europe completely then?

Why would it be sent to Brussels??

What the people think has been accepted for now, the treaty wasn't ratified. Yes, as long as the government and political parties think it is in our best interest to vote again, we will.

Isn't it really tiring when conspiracy theorists rant on about stuff they have no backup for. Don't you think?

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

I take it you want out of Europe completely then?

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other - either accept it or get out!!!
I dont want out completley but i dont want more & more power & decisions to be dictated by the "Centre Right" leaders who drew this Treaty up from brussels.....and they are only "Centre Right" because all that is further right than them is the real nut case fascist's.

Malty_T wrote: »

Why would it be sent to Brussels??

Well once it passes into being it wont be our little band of soldiers of destiny who will have the power to decide if we hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Malty_T wrote: »

What the people think has been accepted for now, the treaty wasn't ratified. Yes, as long as the government and political parties think it is in our best interest to vote again, we will.

Lastly now my father has been involved with one of the main political parties (at a high level once) for the past 30 years & even he now is sickened by the turn coats all around him.......do you seriously expect anyone to beleive or enteratain for a moment that the people running our country (into the ground) are to be trusted with having our best interests decided by them.......after they have all been exposed in government to be corrupt to the core & the oppostion changing their colours to suit the political climate in a flash........

Please Please Please dont say this to me ever again

Malty_T wrote: »

as long as the government and political parties think it is in our best interest to vote again, we will.

Is mise le key

meglome wrote: »

Isn't it really tiring when conspiracy theorists rant on about stuff they have no backup for. Don't you think?

That old chestnut.....its always fired out there when someone opposes the mainstream line we are told to accept as being correct.......

1. I do beleive we landed on the moon.:D
2. I dont give a sh.it who shot JFK.:D
3. George Bush is not an alien just an ass.hole:D
4. Fianna Fail do tell lies regularly:D
5. The Lisbon Treaty does give more external control in irish affairs:D

My theory is this & correct me if this sounds like an outlandish & nutty conspiracy.

Europe has gone from being a whole group of completley indepedant countries slowly but surley to an interlinked, interdependant Union of european states with a common currency & freedom of movement for all member states across its borders with the aim to eventually becoming a fully united state of europe completley intergated in every way economically, militarily, financially etc.

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Why does it have to be one extreme or the other - either accept it or get out!!!

It hasn't come to that extreme yet, but it may. Look at it this way we account for less than 1% of the EU and we are holding back a treaty that 26 nations spent years attempting agree on,then we go back an look for an addendum to the treaty for reasons by the NO side that were never made clear to us : I fear the day may come where they say enough is enough. Luckily it is not this day.

I dont want out completley but i dont want more & more power & decisions to be dictated by the "Centre Right" leaders who drew this Treaty up from brussels.....and they are only "Centre Right" because all that is further right than them is the real nut case fascist's.

You should look at EU demographics the main parties are far from centre right, FF is a member of the Liberal Democrat and Reform one.

Well once it passes into being it wont be our little band of soldiers of destiny who will have the power to decide if we hold another referendum on the Lisbon Treaty.

Seriously, read the treaty! Any changes that are made go back to referenda before the Irish people that's what was agreed first time around, and second time around.

Lastly now my father has been involved with one of the main political parties (at a high level once) for the past 30 years & even he now is sickened by the turn coats all around him.......do you seriously expect anyone to beleive or enteratain for a moment that the people running our country (into the ground) are to be trusted with having our best interests decided by them.......after they have all been exposed in government to be corrupt to the core & the oppostion changing their colours to suit the political climate in a

I don't trust any politician, I'm just stating what the government are entitled to do and this in case I happen to agree. Otherwise, I'd be seeking that petition.

Please Please Please dont say this to me ever again

It's true though

Is mise le key

Malty_T wrote: »

I don't trust any politician,

The lisbon Treaty is drawn by politicians but you are prepared to defend it as if it was the good book itself & that in no way is possible that it is to facilitate something far greater in concept than what is being presented to us.

Turtwig

theasylumkey wrote: »

Europe has gone from being a whole group of completley indepedant countries slowly but surley to an interlinked, interdependant Union of european states with a common currency & freedom of movement for all member states across its borders with the aim to eventually becoming a fully united state of europe completley intergated in every way economically, militarily, financially etc.

Europe has gone from being the continent where everyone invades one another to being a continent under unity,peace and knowledge.
ESA, CERN, GEO,EHMA etc etc get more funding than the EDA does. And how absurd is the thought these days of Germany invading France? What was once commonplace in a continent marred by thousands of years of war and violence is no longer the case.
Evolutionary theory teaches us that the more societies trade goods and services the less likely they are to go to war with one another.

Run_to_da_hills

meglome wrote: »

Rtdh you're just a spamfest. Either put up or shut-up, show the parts of the treaty that do these things or stop lying.

Don't tell me to shut up and accuse me of spamming when I disclose FACTS about the EU controlling and invading our personal lives.

Why should I have to show parts of the treaty when the subject of the EU invasion of our civil liberties is brought up in the mainstream media? :rolleyes:

Anyway what is written in the Lisbon Treaty dose not hold one drop of water because it is self amending. In other words the EU Parlament can walk all over us with new evasive legislation in two years time and we can do jack sh*t about it.

Again VOTE NO to something that is vague and full of holes and threatens the future of our civil liberties. .

lebowsky

Voting No not because of any anti european reason but the fact that Cowen would have to step down if the No vote wins.
Nama will have killed off the country long before any negative effect of a No vote.

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Why should I have to show parts of the treaty when the subject of the EU invasion of our civil liberties is brought up in the mainstream media? :rolleyes:

So you trust the media?:rolleyes:
Explains alot..

Turtwig

lebowsky wrote: »

Voting No not because of any anti european reason but the fact that Cowen would have to step down if the No vote wins.
Nama will have killed off the country long before any negative effect of a No vote.

You're going to let a personal gripe which has nothing do with the treaty decide how you vote? Cowen has said that he will not resign if Lisbon is rejected, NAMA is going ahead anyway, if you really want to make a difference to either of those things then join a political party that opposed them.

Run_to_da_hills

Malty_T wrote: »

So you trust the media?:rolleyes:
Explains alot..

Again you will not find any material that opposes the EU in the Irish mainstream media at this present time for fear that it will rock the boat, instead you will find biased and scaremongering articles about our economy giving false hope for jobs and why we should bend backwards and submit to this up and coming undemocratic totalitarian regime. :rolleyes:

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Again you will not find any material that opposes the EU in the Irish mainstream media at this present time for fear that it will rock the boat, instead you will find biased and scaremongering articles about our economy giving false hope for jobs and why we should bend backwards and submit to this up and coming undemocratic totalitarian regime. :rolleyes:

Seriously, you think people here trust the media???
The only way democracy works is when people make informed decisions, you know, read the actual treaty.
(Two years like)

Totalitarian Regime???
Please tell me you're not being serious..

Run_to_da_hills

Malty_T wrote: »

Seriously, you think people here trust the media???
The only way democracy works is when people make informed decisions, you know, read the actual treaty.
(Two years like)

Totalitarian Regime???
Please tell me you're not being serious..

Again I would not trust swapping our watertight Irish Constitution for any self amending document that can be twisted and turned by future foreign governments.

The Current EU Constitution is not worth the paper its written on.

Turtwig

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Again I would not trust swapping our watertight Irish Constitution for any self amending document that can be twisted and turned by future foreign governments.

The Current EU Constitution is not worth the paper its written on.

Serioiusly, wtf are you on about, our constitution will still be as powerful as it is.
We will still remain a sovereign, independent nation.