LISBON - What way will Clare vote this time?

drunken_munky52

Azza wrote: »

I really hate it when people pull this "what would our forefathers think" argument in an attempt to shame people into voting no. I'd imagine our forefathers fought to give us the freedom to choose our own destiny wether its an Ireland that wants to go it alone or an Ireland thats wants to be part of something bigger.

We used to part of something bigger, it was called the British Empire... thats exactly what they fought to get out of...

Direct military action is used only in a last resort if expanding in other cheaper ways fails first of all. Nowadays, the British expand their empire in a more sutle way...

through using the EU as a collective cover for their greed...

giving massive "loans" to 3rd world countries and demanding they use that countrie's resources as collatoral on such a loan, thus creating super poverty in those states...

they also send in their economic hitmen, to try corrupt those govt -> does not work, they try stage a coup -> if that dont work = assassination

The French and Italians are also known for their empires -> Nowadays they work together to rule the world... just they have rebranded themselves as the EU, which are effectively agents of the G8

Hawk Wing

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Did anyone see Primetime last night?

Joe Higgens, what a ledge... he said in 30 seconds what Lisbon is all about, exactly what I have been saying...

1. it takes care of big European business (who are driven by profit only, dont be fooled into thinking there is jobs there) 2. it limits the rights of workers and gives more favour to employers, 3. it expands military spending, thus giving the green light to waste billions of euro on even more arms (what do we need more arms for, havn't we learned anything from nearly anilalating each other with two world wars?!)

Pat Cox just said what the others said, good for jobs, good for business (big business).

It makes me sick to see the likes of FF, FG, Labour, etc all standing together on this... becuase they are blinded by the fact that somehow if this is good for big business, magical jobs are going to be created out of it...

Nothing will change if we vote no, but if we vote yes, we will be less respected by the ordinary people of Europe and fooled by the Euro fat cats... who will laugh in gleem at us

Pat Cox is the ultimate Euro stooge, trying to further his own career and stay on the European gravy train

BLITZ_Molloy

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

We used to part of something bigger, it was called the British Empire... thats exactly what they fought to get out of...

Direct military action is used only in a last resort if expanding in other cheaper ways fails first of all. Nowadays, the British expand their empire in a more sutle way...

through using the EU as a collective cover for their greed...

giving massive "loans" to 3rd world countries and demanding they use that countrie's resources as collatoral on such a loan, thus creating super poverty in those states...

they also send in their economic hitmen, to try corrupt those govt -> does not work, they try stage a coup -> if that dont work = assassination

The French and Italians are also known for their empires -> Nowadays they work together to rule the world... just they have rebranded themselves as the EU, which are effectively agents of the G8

Someone's been reading The Economic Hitman.

You'd probably like a podcast called No Agenda drunken_munky. It used to be skewed a bit more towards European news when one of the podcasters lived in the UK but it still goes into that stuff fairly regularly. I'd expect more Lisbon coverage in the next few weeks cos that's getting close.

I'm just generally suspicious of large government. The more removed you are from who governs you the more control corporations and big business can have over political leaders. They're trying to make the EU more like the US federal government and that's not a road I'd like to go down. The whole things pure lobbyists (despite Obama boasting that he wouldn't have any!). The bigger the system the larger the scams as well. If you're going to steal, steal big and you'll get away with it. Our current government is full of corrupt twats as well but I'd rather it was ones in Dublin than some shadowy crowd in Europe because I'd be in more of a position to change it.

drunken_munky52

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

Someone's been reading The Economic Hitman.

QUOTE]

WOW. I just Googled that now and didnt even know that someone had already coined it... very interesting, thanks blitz

If we the Lisbon treaty is ratfiied, then we will never be asked to vote on Europe again.

We need to reject the treaty and also reject the system! We need to use this oppurtunity to stand up to these pricks and put them on their knees for the first time like they have done with the human race time and time again for 100s of years now.

THE SYSTEM HAS FAILED, AND WILL FAIL AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.

Lining the pockets of the rich is going to do nothing to improve the pockets of their slaves at the bottom.

BLITZ_Molloy

I'm feeling really conflicted about this again. On the one hand I really want to stick the finger to the EU because I think the treaty is a bad idea, and they're bullying the public across Europe into accepting it. But on the other I know we're already paying over the odds to borrow money, and voting No is going to make them really **** us over on that front.

As they're going to ratify the ****ty thing regardless of wether we vote No or not I think voting Yes is probably the lesser of two evils.

I'm quite capable of losing the head and voting No if they keep airing those fecking advertisements however. If they must ride us up the arse it'd be nice if they wouldn't be so obvious about it.

onedoubleo

It was interesting watching Euronews last night when it said that 3/4 new laws come from EU law with an average wait of 5 years from proposition to law.
Giving this governing body more power is not in the best interest for any of the smaller developed EU countries.
What does this mean for the IMF and ECB's power over our banks? Are they going to have more say while putting our country into more debt. But of course nobody has thought, " Hey, why dont we print our own money and give government loans" but that is a rant for another day.

It will mean war for us as soon as any of the bigger states get attacked. I suppose we could not help and I am sure the nice powers that be wont reduce funding here because of that.


The main reason I am voting no is simply because NO has the funniest repercussions. It would be interesting to see how the EU and Ireland try to cope with it.

As for the county as a whole, it will vote yes and I shall hang my head in shame again.

drunken_munky52

OK people... I myself will be airing my thoughts in public about why Clare needs to vote NO this time, becuase it appears that Co Clare has the power tip the balance thus ensuring rejection... there was only a marginal vote to yes last time and if Clare votes no, its likely this thing will be rejected, like it should by the people...

I would call on every Clare person to spread the word that voting no, stands up for the people and gives two fingers to the rich elite... the rich elite will do nothing to help the people...

There are more good reasons to reject it then accept it...

Run_to_da_hills

If you are unsure you are also better off voting NO.

The devil you know is better than the one you Dont Know.

The EU Constitution it is full of holes for later ammendments, just like a lump of Swiss Cheese.

The Irish Constitution was drawn up by great men of Ireland to protect this nation, don't let it slip away for good.

Turtwig

Emm, If you are unsure you shouldn't vote.

Saying 'yes' is a stance,
Saying 'no' is a stance,
Saying nothing is being impartial.

Also, the Irish Constitution had a sh1t loads of holes in it when it was drafted, and sadly it still does
Just sayin....

REPSOC1916

Malty_T wrote: »

Emm, If you are unsure you shouldn't vote.

Saying 'yes' is a stance,
Saying 'no' is a stance,
Saying nothing is being impartial.

One of the reasons for the successive awful FiannaFail/Fine Gael administrations that have been running this country is due to good and sensible people not bothering to vote.

Also regarding the topic, I'll be voting no myself but I'm not sure about the county as a whole. FiannaFail are pretty strong here but I'd say a good majority are fed up with wastes of genetic material such as the aforementioned Timmy Dooley. I don't want to lose our commissioner. Also I've heard from a very good source that the Irish Army is ready to integrate into the European Army when the treaty is passed.

Teadrinker

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

If you are unsure you are also better off voting NO.

The devil you know is better than the one you Dont Know.

The EU Constitution it is full of holes for later ammendments, just like a lump of Swiss Cheese.

The Irish Constitution was drawn up by great men of Ireland to protect this nation, don't let it slip away for good.

...and every Christmas Eve, Santy comes down the chimney with presents.

Warper

Can someone give me one valid argument for voting No?

I will definitely be Voting "Yes". Great argument put forward by someone earlier "if you are unsure vote No". You'd swear we were going to be overtaken by Nazis or something. Wake up people, the EU has helped us enormously since we joined, just think of all the Grants, funding we have recieved.

The Lisbon Treaty is all about a stronger and more united European Union. These "No" posters that are about are laughable. They are primarily based on fear - eg a European Tax - this is not true. Ireland will always have control over their own policies which include tax, minimum wage, defense etc..

Voting No would be lovely alright. Ah Germany can we have some money please - No.

drunken_munky52

Warper wrote: »

Can someone give me one valid argument for voting No?

I will definitely be Voting "Yes". Great argument put forward by someone earlier "if you are unsure vote No". You'd swear we were going to be overtaken by Nazis or something. Wake up people, the EU has helped us enormously since we joined, just think of all the Grants, funding we have recieved.

The Lisbon Treaty is all about a stronger and more united European Union. These "No" posters that are about are laughable. They are primarily based on fear - eg a European Tax - this is not true. Ireland will always have control over their own policies which include tax, minimum wage, defense etc..

Voting No would be lovely alright. Ah Germany can we have some money please - No.

Listen here stubborn citizens of Ireland, how dare you think for yourself! For the holy bible says, independent thinking is the path to Evil.

Lisbon is good for you. Got it? Vote Yes for jobs and the economy and house prices and potholes and everything that is wrong with this country.

Lisbon will cure all our problems.....Fíanna Fáil would never tell us lies.....Vote Yes or your just being Anti-Europe.
Who do you think you are disagreeing with Europe? Do you realise you are putting powerful careers, policies and agendas at risk?
How dare you backward Irish become educated and stand up on behalf of 500 million people!

Listen Here. If you vote No, you will kill the "Economy", your job will be taken from you, the world will end in a treaty-less fireball and you and your family will surely perish.

So, remember Vote Yes for a "Better" Europe


"Lisbon doesn't affect Ireland in any way."

"Lisbon doesn't affect your rights in any way"

"Lisbon doesn't change things anything in any way"

LISBON IS YOUR FRIEND

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Listen here stubborn citizens of Ireland, how dare you think for yourself! For the holy bible says, independent thinking is the path to Evil.

Lisbon is good for you. Got it? Vote Yes for jobs and the economy and house prices and potholes and everything that is wrong with this country.

Lisbon will cure all our problems.....Fíanna Fáil would never tell us lies.....Vote Yes or your just being Anti-Europe.
Who do you think you are disagreeing with Europe? Do you realise you are putting powerful careers, policies and agendas at risk?
How dare you backward Irish become educated and stand up on behalf of 500 million people!

Listen Here. If you vote No, you will kill the "Economy", your job will be taken from you, the world will end in a treaty-less fireball and you and your family will surely perish.

So, remember Vote Yes for a "Better" Europe


"Lisbon doesn't affect Ireland in any way."

"Lisbon doesn't affect your rights in any way"

"Lisbon doesn't change things anything in any way"

LISBON IS YOUR FRIEND

That's a pretty poor 'yes' argument:), but sadly it's still better than any 'no' one I've heard:pac:

Warper

Malty_T wrote: »

That's a pretty poor 'yes' argument:), but sadly it's still better than any 'no' one I've heard:pac:

He's being sarcastic

drunken_munky52

When I heard that the Lisbon treaty was the magic bullet for climate change, I thought shure I'l vote yes. They said it would pave the way for tough legislation to combat greenhouse gas emmisions. Unfortunately, it appeared that Angela Merkal and other CO2 producing goons kicked up a little fuss about this idea. And sure why not... German heavy industry is the most polluting in Europe... seems the environment comes second to driving around BMW and Audi.

The Lisbon Treaty fails to significantly address the issue of climate change, despite arguments from the Irish government.

The government secured the inclusion of the six words at the end of the existing provision “promoting measures at international level to deal with regional or worldwide environmental problems, and in particular combating climate change”. This addition is purely symbolic, without substance and, considering the global urgency of tackling this issue, does nothing to advance the EU’s commitment to seriously tackle the issue. It does not empower the EU to do anything it could not currently do under existing treaty provisions.

seany2929

Vote Yes plain & simple!

Run_to_da_hills

Vote NO for DEMOCRACY

drunken_munky52

seany2929 wrote: »

Vote Yes plain & simple!

Thats what the sign says!

I dont think yes voters are even reading the reasons to vote no... this just shows pure laziness, as there is more detail for voting no.

Voting yes > Plain and simple... You sure got that right

This is not to be treated like playing roulette... by voting yes you are taking a gamble where the odds are servely stacked against you... this is our future... are we really going to pis$ it away for the sake of pleasing a handful of rich countries?.... are we really going to let them bully us around and not been able to stand up for ourselves anymore....?

Think about this long and hard... you have a choice... just becuase FF, FG and Labour agree on one huge issue like this does not mean they are right... they represent big interests... you as an individual have to look after yourself and the family living next door to you... its your sovereign duty to protect the person at the bottom rungs of society... Lisbon does nothing to address the problems we are in...

It is SIMPLY the LARGEST transfer of power Europe has ever seen into the hands of a few people with vague notions of how the world should work

Now thats plain and simple!

golfball37

I’m voting no because I do not believe in further erosion of power for Ireland in Europe. We are fine under Nice and Maastricht where we are right now. Once Lisbon is passed we will never get to vote again on referenda concerning Europe. I do not want this.

Turtwig

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I dont think yes voters are even reading the reasons to vote no... this just shows pure laziness, as there is more detail for voting no.

!

Amazingly, you're probably right on this one. Seriously, just give us one sensible argument....pleaseeeeeeeeeee

Also, um, just thought I'd like to point out that I love how people expect treaties to have no compromises

Fancy That

Warper wrote: »

Can someone give me one valid argument for voting No?

I will definitely be Voting "Yes". Great argument put forward by someone earlier "if you are unsure vote No". You'd swear we were going to be overtaken by Nazis or something. Wake up people, the EU has helped us enormously since we joined, just think of all the Grants, funding we have recieved.

The Lisbon Treaty is all about a stronger and more united European Union. These "No" posters that are about are laughable. They are primarily based on fear - eg a European Tax - this is not true. Ireland will always have control over their own policies which include tax, minimum wage, defense etc..


Voting No would be lovely alright. Ah Germany can we have some money please - No.

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU. A NO vote would leave us as the cousin nobody wants to share with..

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

onedoubleo

Fancy That wrote: »

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU. A NO vote would leave us as the cousin nobody wants to share with..

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

The only opposition I have heard from the YES side is the funding that we will lose. The President of the EU came out and said that if we vote No then we will become a second tier country.
The Irish politicians have been riding off the back of EU funding for the last 15 years, and now Europe's big powers are telling them pass this or we wont play nice anymore.
Ask the fishermen what happens when our politicians get bullied by Europe.

Our law makers and politicians have become so corrupt that they have not had the interests of the country first.

How easy is it going to be for if any four of Italy, Germany, U.K, France, Spain will immediately have the 65% Population requirement. Our own government and higher ups are been forced to back this imagine how easy its going to be for them to pass new laws.

Europe is already adding 3 new laws to every one we make here. Why would we want to fast track them telling us exactly what we should be doing. If we pass this treaty then we will be given a lot when times are good but we will be one of the first on the chopping block when times are bad.

And why not take away all the nice easy life our politicians have, they are overpriced hacks. Or minister for Health is a graduate in Modern Studies, now I may be crazy but I would much prefer a doctor to be the person in hcarge of our hospitals. Our minister for Science, Technology, Innovation and Natural Resources was a journalist and a business graduate. Im sure that will have really shown him the capabilities for Technology and Natural Resources.
This No vote probably wont be but might just shake up this government enough that some capable people will be taking charge or at least be a step towards it.

drunken_munky52

Fancy That wrote: »

Well said Warper.......

Get a grip and vote YES

Spoken like a pure autocrat... they've brainwashed you into becoming one of them... its like Hitler speeches all over again... The European propaganda machine has filtered down to our nation's roundabouts... VOTE YES - ICH BIN EIN BERLINER!

Fancy That wrote: »

...and be grateful for all the help this country has revieved from the EU.

We will continue to do so under the current treaty... but the arguement that we should hand over all our power to the EU just becuase they gave us a few motorways (which ultimately will benefit the union), is not a valid one...

Fancy That wrote: »

Read over the arguments for Yes people....and remeber that all important word VETO;)

The treaty does not set these rules in stone. Rememeber its going to make the EU self regulating, so it can do what it likes whenever it likes... it can pull a new law out of its arse whenver it feels like it cant get something it wants.

The question is:

Do you want to live in a democracy or do you want to live in a autocracy?

Please know you cant have both.

Vote no if you want to live in a democracy
Vote yes if you want to live in a autocracy

bowsie casey

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

There is a lot of water gone under the bridge since the last Lisbon Referendum, job losses, hospital cut backs, off licence restrictions, cut backs, NAMA, general anger against Fianna Fail. I suspect this will have a strong effect on polling day as many will vote NO as a kick in the ass for FF to get Cowen out. There is also quite a strong Sin Fein support in Clare.

...not based on the 3.4% that Anna Prior got in the last election there's not!

One of the reasons I will vote Yes is because Sinn Fein are advocating a No vote.

drunken_munky52

bowsie casey wrote: »

One of the reasons I will vote Yes is because Sinn Fein are advocating a No vote.

I do not support Sinn Fein either... but I do agree with them

And I am agreeing with them, that they are right this time.

Just this week, I was walking through Ennis and met one on the street handing out leaflets. It was about the cutbacks the schools are facing... basically they were saying, whatever about anything else "hands off the schools" for god sake, they are bad enough as it is.

He said he would have a piece on NAMA soon aswell and also continue to fight a no vote for Lisbon... you cant fault them... they are an nationalist party, therefore they are only looking out for their own... not greasy bankers, developers and polichickens...

But dont take Sinn Feins word for it, check out this page:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0909/1224254135086.html

asmobhosca

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I do not support Sinn Fein either... but I do agree with them



you cant fault them... they are an nationalist party, therefore they are only looking out for their own... not greasy bankers, developers and polichickens...

But dont take Sinn Feins word for it, check out this page:

By looking out for their own I suppose you mean welcoming Garda murderers out of prison and being involved in drugs and criminality......
But of course thats all vicious "rumours" and "lies". :cool:

I consider myself a republican, but i'm really starting to hate the sight of the shinners especially ferris and macdonald down south.

drunken_munky52

asmobhosca wrote: »

By looking out for their own I suppose you mean welcoming Garda murderers out of prison and being involved in drugs and criminality......
But of course thats all vicious "rumours" and "lies". :cool:

I consider myself a republican, but i'm really starting to hate the sight of the shinners especially ferris and macdonald down south.

Well, to be quite honest I hate people who are using this referendum to vote either way to punish or not support a particular party, because they dont agree with what the did or stand for.

On one side, you have people who will vote no becuase they want to punish FF for the way they have brought the country to its knees.

On the other, you have Bowsie Casey saying he will vote yes, becuase he wants to punish SF, because I presume he has the same views as you... that they support Garda killers and the likes

What about the other small voices advocating a no vote? It seems like they would not be heard of at all, without a big party like SF backing them up. The juggernaut of FF, FG and Labour have it easy, becuase they have so much pull in the country.

PLEASE, DONT VOTE BECUASE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH A PARTY'S BEHAVIOUR OR MISTAKES.

asmobhosca

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

PLEASE, DONT VOTE BECUASE YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH A PARTY'S BEHAVIOUR OR MISTAKES. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH LISBON

I agree totally with you there, a person should only vote on the treaty that is placed in front of us.
To be honest I havent made my mind up yet on Lisbon.
Although given current circumstances I'm leaning closer to a Yes vote at the moment but that could change.

I think that some sections of the no campaign at times sensationalise the reasons to vote NO.
For example I saw a signs in Limerick which said "Vote No to stop Israeli genocide"
What the hell has that got to do with Lisbon?

The whole Libertas thing had a serious stink off it too... the Mcavaddys...omega air...U.S. military transport contracts...etc.
I think things like the above actually hinder the no campaign's credibility at times.....

The Yes campaign while having much cross party support is still failing to adequately explain the ramifications of the treaty to the Irish population.
Most people havent a clue what it actually means!! STILL!!!

BLITZ_Molloy