NAMA - If there wer'e a referendum on it... How would you vote?

drunken_munky52

Most Clare people historically go with whatever the government tells them is right, but are the people really going to be brain washed by the government telling us this is for our benefit, when really the only people that come out un scaved are the ruling rich elite

buck65

I would vote yes on the one condidition that the government insist the banks involved would reduce the principles on mortgages on houses that were purchased since 2004 by 20%. It is only fair that if the banks are being bailed out by the taxpayer, he should also be bailed out by the bank. Well this would probably should have been done when the banks were re-capitalised.

Hawk Wing

I'd vote yes if they took these loans at the right price instead of the inflated prices they are planning to pay

Western_sean

I can't really imagine a methodology which will allow an accurate price to be calculated. I would also expect that a current market price would leave too large of a hole in bank balance sheets.

To me this suggests that the purpose of NAMA is to throw a few bob to Bank bond holders and I can't think of any reason why I would want to vote for that.

BLITZ_Molloy

We're kind of ****ed whatever we do. Everybody's going to have to pay for the way people have been living the last 10 years (mostly the people who weren't being irresponsible).

I'd rather the Fine Gael method of reform where we take the brunt of the pain in one go at the start. Let everything go to the wall and the whole country will be fecked for a couple of years and then get out of it. NAMA seems to be a recipe for dragging out the pain for 20 years.

Who can call a referendum anyway? Do the Green party have to walk out? Seems like it'd be in their interest to at this stage anyway. Look at what happened to the PD when they stuck by FF. I think FF are just going to bluster this through as usual. I'll be up in Dublin on the 12th to march anyway. I don't pretend to understand economic plans this complex (anybody who hasn't studied it for years can't) but my instincts tell me the people who got us in this mess aren't the right people to steer us out of it.

golfball37

Your actually spot on with that summary blitz.

Run_to_da_hills

Just vote NO on Lisbon

This will kick Fianna Fail out of power in a run up General Election and stop NAMA dead in its tracks.

Kill two birds with one stone.

drunken_munky52

NAMA will only serve to boost the share prices of the institutions it will be used on... thus returning the millions that have been wiped out by the fat cat elite in our ranks...

Remember the ads on the radio quote:

"The price of the shares may rise aswell as fall"

They were warned when they purchased those shares of the above fact, and now it didnt work out they way the wanted, they are effectively saying that:

"we are rich, that warning was for the commom peasent on the street, it does not apply to me... please mr cowen, give me some of the peasent's blood and sweat... im to rich to be broke"

And I quote Minister Lenihan when he was asked why does he not want to nationalise the banks instead?

He said that the "ECB" said the banks remaining un-privatised was what they would like to see. It should not take a rocket scientest to know, that they dont want the people to own such a enterprise... rather their own handful of elite.

skelliser

Nama will set a floor for property prices, its a complete scam

Fancy That

I think its time that top CFO's (chief finincial officers) were employed by Cowen and the lads to sit down and work out a way to get this country out of this mess. The so called goverment we are been led by are obviously not doing much to elliviate the problems mainly because they are in way out of there depth. Hiring CFO's worked for Obama so let them have a go here, but Cowen stay at home that day(better still have a Dail break) !!

Yes bring on Nama get rid of the toxic assets at todays values not at over inflated prices.

The share price is the banks does need to be boosted cause any lower than what it went at its lowest price and its bye bye BOI etc....where would we be then...going to ATM's and no cash...i think so..:eek:???

drunken_munky52

Primetime last night was classic:

Mark Little... legend

The waffling Lenhinin, going off on a tangent after every question he was asked, saying "we have to do this for the country", Little wouldn't let him get his rant going... just rapid fired to the next question... it was hillarious!

After all his raving, he still has not convinced anyone that the plan is a good one

Jim Martin

This country is busted, the only way to repair it is to flush it like a toilet and the only way to do that is to have an election!

Fancy That

Jim Martin wrote: »

This country is busted, the only way to repair it is to flush it like a toilet and the only way to do that is to have an election!

And what do me get then only a Labour and FG goverment who couldn't agree on the sky is blue the grass is green scenario. Idiots.

We need to take an Obama approach and get some proper advice..Hire top dogs. Its a double whammy here the banks and a recession.

BLITZ_Molloy

Hahaha. All Obama did was hire the entire staff of Goldman Sachs, who got busy bankrupting their competitors Lehman brothers and grabbed as much bailout money as they could carry. No wonder they're giving themselves record bonuses this year. They deserve it for wiping everybodys eye like that.

You won't hear the politicians or media talking about this for obvious reasons but it's the ordinary Irish people who are largely at fault for the mess we're in now. Banks and developers have always been trying to rob the ordinary consumer, most of us just let greed get the better of us and decided to pay way over the odds for property. If we'd all had a better sense of proportion about things and decided not to buy a house if the price was wrong the oligarchy wouldn't have been able to fleece us as much as they did. I bought an apartment at the height of the boom and as far as I'm concerned, it was my fault. Nobody bullied me into it.

Maybe if we have a little more personal responsibility from now on we'll start to see more responsibility further up the chain. Or at least we won't give people in positions of power as much opportunity to **** us over.

Western_sean

drunken_munky wrote:

NAMA will only serve to boost the share prices of the institutions it will be used on... thus returning the millions that have been wiped out by the fat cat elite in our ranks..

This isn't really correct. The current share prices of these institutions suggest impending nationalisation with the equity holders being largely wiped out. These share prices are really behaving more like long dated options and thinly traded ones at that. The bond holders are the ones who gain most from NAMA.

Blitz Molloy wrote:

You won't hear the politicians or media talking about this for obvious reasons but it's the ordinary Irish people who are largely at fault for the mess we're in now. Banks and developers have always been trying to rob the ordinary consumer, most of us just let greed get the better of us and decided to pay way over the odds for property.

I don't really agree with this either. Property losses are to a large degree focused on a generation of people currently between there late 20's and late 30s those younger and older are mostly unaffected. This is a very small portion of the overall population (roughly 16% at 2006 census), and to my mind coupled with the few large developers this portion of the population is responsible for the problem. - And as you have observed is no suffering most in terms of negative equity and will likely suffer again in terms of taxation, poor services, job losses etc.

Yes bring on Nama get rid of the toxic assets at todays values not at over inflated prices.

This is in effect a delayed nationalisation as doing this ensures the large banks require significant government cash to survive in the short-medium term.

Just vote NO on Lisbon

I can see some merit to this approach though not perhaps for the purpose suggested, however I do wonder who you would suggest we borrow money from when international bond markets realise we're a joke and we have given 2 fingers to the Germans in the form of a no to Lisbon?

Rujib1

Western_sean wrote: »

This isn't really correct. The current share prices of these institutions suggest impending nationalisation with the equity holders being largely wiped out. These share prices are really behaving more like long dated options and thinly traded ones at that. The bond holders are the ones who gain most from NAMA.



I don't really agree with this either. Property losses are to a large degree focused on a generation of people currently between there late 20's and late 30s those younger and older are mostly unaffected. This is a very small portion of the overall population (roughly 16% at 2006 census), and to my mind coupled with the few large developers this portion of the population is responsible for the problem. - And as you have observed is no suffering most in terms of negative equity and will likely suffer again in terms of taxation, poor services, job losses etc.



This is in effect a delayed nationalisation as doing this ensures the large banks require significant government cash to survive in the short-medium term.



I can see some merit to this approach though not perhaps for the purpose suggested, however I do wonder who you would suggest we borrow money from when international bond markets realise we're a joke and we have given 2 fingers to the Germans in the form of a no to Lisbon?

In a crisis two things always emerge.

1. Bleating sheep, who panic and make bad decisions.
2. Cool heads who think rationally and logically and lead most of the sheep out of danger with some casualties but primarily intact.

Most posters in this thread belong to the sheep category.

Western Sean and Fancy That are in the latter category. The rest of you sheep, need to follow the sheperds, or get mauled by the wolves :cool:

R1

drunken_munky52

We are dammed if we do and we are dammed if we dont!

So why do?

Dont do what they want us to do, coz if we dont, thats drags them into hell with us!

Now thats what I call EQUALITY

drunken_munky52

Rujib1 wrote: »

2. Cool heads who think rationally and logically and lead most of the sheep out of danger with some casualties but primarily intact.

Most posters in this thread belong to the sheep category.

Western Sean and Fancy That are in the latter category. The rest of you sheep, need to follow the sheperds, or get mauled by the wolves :cool:

R1

Cool heads?

Another catogoy for the likes of the above, catogorised as another member of the animal kingdom "Blind Bats", or Ostrichs with their heads buried in the sand...

Lets remember that the tax payer will be paying for this... that equates to me working my mundane 9-5 shift for LIFE and not even coming off close to pay for the greed of a handfull of ignorant grease balls in shiny Armani suits!!!

So effectively, all my life I will be working to pay off a loan to the bank I never even signed up for... another way of looking at it is MODERN DAY SLAVERY...

Get real mate... the shepards dont serve the sheep, the serve the wolves, the shepards are the wolves... dont equate this scenario to a bible story... it is far easier to understand this without reading an outdated 2000 year old human user guide

Rujib1

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Cool heads?

Another catogoy for the likes of the above, catogorised as another member of the animal kingdom "Blind Bats", or Ostrichs with their heads buried in the sand...

Lets remember that the tax payer will be paying for this... that equates to me working my shhiity 9-5 shift for LIFE and not even coming off close to pay for the greed of a handfull of ignorant grease balls in shiny Armani suits!!!

So effectively, all my life I will be working to pay off a loan to the bank I never even signed up for... another way of looking at it is MODERN DAY SLAVERY...

Get real mate... the shepards dont serve the sheep, the serve the wolves... dont dare equate this scenario to a bible story... it is far easier to understand this without reading an outdated 2000 year old human user guide

Phew

Thing is I really agree with you in terms of my anger about what has happened, why it happened and by whom it was perpetrated.

But do not kid yourself, we are in this mess and we are going to have to earn our way out. Giving the fingers to the bond markets from whom Ireland Inc needs loans to fund our hospitals and schools ets, AND giving the fingers to to Europe is one sure way to plunge ourselves and several generations into a mess which would be many times graeter than NAMA and a yes to Europe will cost.

Sad but true.

R1

Teadrinker

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Cool heads?

Another catogoy for the likes of the above, catogorised as another member of the animal kingdom "Blind Bats", or Ostrichs with their heads buried in the sand...

Lets remember that the tax payer will be paying for this... that equates to me working my mundane 9-5 shift for LIFE and not even coming off close to pay for the greed of a handfull of ignorant grease balls in shiny Armani suits!!!

So effectively, all my life I will be working to pay off a loan to the bank I never even signed up for... another way of looking at it is MODERN DAY SLAVERY...

Get real mate... the shepards dont serve the sheep, the serve the wolves, the shepards are the wolves... dont equate this scenario to a bible story... it is far easier to understand this without reading an outdated 2000 year old human user guide

Could we pause a while to clear up something about ostriches. They do not bury their heads in the sand. That is a myth. A myth that apparently originated from Pliny the Elder in AD 23 - 79, so it's time to end it. They also have three stomachs and no gallbladder and can run faster than 70 kmh. Their willies extend up to 8 inches and the male sits on the eggs at night so the females can go down the pub. So some respect, please.

Fancy That

BLITZ_Molloy wrote: »

....most of us just let greed get the better of us and decided to pay way over the odds for property. If we'd all had a better sense of proportion about things and decided not to buy a house if the price was wrong the oligarchy wouldn't have been able to fleece us as much as they did.

Its basic economics supply and demand...they kept supplying the houses to meet the demand. When this happens prices go up and up, this is the case with any product. The higher the demand the higher the price.

Why were the prices going up and up well because investors were buying up houses for the rental market. So in return us the ordinary taxpayer were been forced to pay above the odds. We didnt have much choice really...if you wanted a house you had to bite the bullet and go get it.

I guess some people lost the run of themselves and were not concious enough to know their limitations when it came to what they could afford.

I think its time we all looked a little closer to home and realised all in some way contributed to this mess. :eek:

fergusman

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Just vote NO on Lisbon

This will kick Fianna Fail out of power in a run up General Election and stop NAMA dead in its tracks.

Kill two birds with one stone.

How the hell does voting no to Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament?
Without the ECB and the european bond market where the hell are we going to borrow money to keep us afloat.
I was always a slight euro sceptic but now is really not the time to vote no or pull back from the EU it will only hasten foreign companies retranchement from ireland and make our position worse.

Voting No to punish Fianna Fail is the political equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

To just blame the banks and the developers while accurate is also a bit simplistic.
As Blitz Molloy pointed out no one was FORCED to buy anything in this country and everyone benefited from the Celtic tiger while it boomed.

The country as a whole lost the run of itself.... not just the rich developers and bankers... we as a nation became obsessed with property.

I'm not a fan of NAMA either, (Anglo should have been allowed to fail) but I havent heard a credible alternative anywhere yet.....

drunken_munky52

fergusman wrote: »

How the hell does voting no to Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament?

How does voting FOR Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament?

We have been making good arguements so far against the treaty, now its time for the YES siders like you to come up with good reasons why we should vote yes.

fergusman wrote: »

Without the ECB and the european bond market where the hell are we going to borrow money to keep us afloat.
I was always a slight euro sceptic but now is really not the time to vote no or pull back from the EU it will only hasten foreign companies retranchement from ireland and make our position worse.

Please understand that the ECB are ultimatley to blame for our current woes, as they were the root source for the credit that gave the Irish banks the ability to loan the the money to ordinary people and developers in the first place.

Why should we put our faith in such a "reckless" institution once again, when they were the ones that grossley overlent way beyond their means.

fergusman wrote: »

Voting No to punish Fianna Fail is the political equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I agree... we must reject this treaty not to punish FF, not to punish anyone for that matter... but to reject the EU corporate elite who have deliberatly engineered this mess, by providing the banks of Europe with loans that effectively cant be repaid for decades to come.

fergusman wrote: »

To just blame the banks and the developers while accurate is also a bit simplistic.
As Blitz Molloy pointed out no one was FORCED to buy anything in this country and everyone benefited from the Celtic tiger while it boomed.

The country as a whole lost the run of itself.... not just the rich developers and bankers... we as a nation became obsessed with property.

The likes of you keep blaming our own banks and developers for losing the run of ourselves... it should be apparant by now from my above arguements... that Irish developers got LOANS from Irish banks -> The Irish banks got their LOANS from the ECB -> The ECB got its LOANS from the WORLD BANK/IMF -> That leads to the United States Federal Reserve, who are no more federal than federal express... follow the money trail and it is easy to see who has the ordinary people by the balls in this day and age... I could go on with this... but I would like to hear your view first on where this is going and answer my first question.

fergusman

[

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

How does voting FOR Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament?

We have been making good arguements so far against the treaty, now its time for the YES siders like you to come up with good reasons why we should vote yes.

Simple by staying closer to europe we will retain our attractiveness to multinational companies that provide FDI and jobs in Ireland.
Most of these companies would never have invested in Ireland in the days before the EU without tarriff free access to other european markets.
EU Structural funds and opening up of new markets have helped Irish businesses to grow. An easy example is Ryanair which in the days of the old flag carrier monopolies could never have happened.

Also to cut ourselves off from the ECB and access to borrowing right now would turn us into something worse than iceland.
If the **** really hits the fan here then we are really going to need help from the EU and the IMF and thats just the way it is.
Do you know of some other magical place where we can get the money to keep the country going?

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

Please understand that the ECB are ultimatley to blame for our current woes, as they were the root source for the credit that gave the Irish banks the ability to loan the the money to ordinary people and developers in the first place.

Why should we put our faith in such a "reckless" institution once again, when they were the ones that grossley overlent way beyond their means.

Actually this is a very simplistic view of the capital money markets and does not reflect reality. Commercial banks dont just borrow from the ECB they also borrow from other banks and financial institutions using a variety of financial instruments. The ECB does lend money to banks and is responsible for the money supply in the Eurozone as well as interest rates etc.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

I agree... we must reject this treaty not to punish FF, not to punish anyone for that matter... but to reject the EU corporate elite who have deliberatly engineered this mess, by providing the banks of Europe with loans that effectively cant be repaid for decades to come.

this just makes me think of one thing tin hats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

The likes of you keep blaming our own banks and developers for losing the run of ourselves... it should be apparant by now from my above arguements... that Irish developers got LOANS from Irish banks -> The Irish banks got their LOANS from the ECB -> The ECB got its LOANS from the WORLD BANK/IMF -> That leads to the United States Federal Reserve, who are no more federal than federal express... follow the money trail and it is easy to see who has the ordinary people by the balls in this day and age... I could go on with this... but I would like to hear your view first on where this is going and answer my first question.

Here you are just plain mistaken and misinformed.
Firstly the ECB does not borrow money from the World Bank (funding for developing countries only) or from the IMF (countries experiencing balance of payments problems).
It is financed solely from its reserves and if needed by physically printing money.
Secondly Irish (and many other counties) banks chose to offer 100% mortgages etc and to give ever increasing property loans etc.
Nobody FORCED the banks to borrow the money or give the loans.

What we should have had was tighter regulation on how much a person can borrow to purchase property. (In France for example you cant borrow more than 85%)

I admire the passion in your argument but I feel that some of your points are just hyperbolic, and lacking facts.
If youre interested, the property pin has some excellent discussions on this topic, I'm sure you'd enjoy the site, there are some very well informed people in there on both sides of the argument...

http://www.thepropertypin.com/index.php

drunken_munky52

fergusman wrote: »

[

Simple by staying closer to europe we will retain our attractiveness to multinational companies that provide FDI and jobs in Ireland.

Our low corporation tax is what attracts multinationals to Ireland. The geographic location of Ireland is ideal for the European markets. We are an English speaking, highly educated workforce and that is where our merits lie... not in the hands of a super institution in Brussels.

Nothing mushroomed in Ireland, until we devalued our currency in the early 90s and that was an internal decision, no help for Brussels.

fergusman wrote: »

Also to cut ourselves off from the ECB and access to borrowing right now would turn us into something worse than iceland.
If the **** really hits the fan here then we are really going to need help from the EU and the IMF and thats just the way it is.
Do you know of some other magical place where we can get the money to keep the country going?

What makes you think we are going to cut ourselves off from the ECB if we reject Lisbon? It does not say that anywhere... have they threatend us, (that they will not put us in even more debt), not to provided us with further loans if we do reject?

I cant see Europe as it is turning its backs on us, they have to treat us the same way they have always done, even with a two step Europe... or else they will end up in their own European Court of human rights

fergusman wrote: »

Actually this is a very simplistic view of the capital money markets and does not reflect reality. Commercial banks dont just borrow from the ECB they also borrow from other banks and financial institutions using a variety of financial instruments. The ECB does lend money to banks and is responsible for the money supply in the Eurozone as well as interest rates etc.

Ever heard of how exacty the banks create money in the first place? And no, I am not talking about the printing of money, I talking about how they pull figures out of thin air to create "New Money". It works via the "Fractional Reserve Banking System".

This is the biggest scam the world has ever seen... for paying off total DEBT can never be acheived in this system, becuase the amount of money that is owed back to the banks will ALWAYS exceed the amount of money that is in the economy... for if there was no DEBT then there would be no MONEY... mind numbing paradox or what... check out this link for more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

fergusman wrote: »

World Bank (funding for developing countries only) or from the IMF (countries experiencing balance of payments problems).
It is financed solely from its reserves and if needed by physically printing money.

Oh sorry... the World bank, WOW... nice friendly bank of the world... very gererous of them to give those HUGE loans to those poor countries... heroes.... WRONG... they give those loans to those nations knowing they cant be paid back and then when those countries default... they hold a gun to their head and ask them nicely to hand over their resources and services...

"It is financed solely from its reserves and if needed by physically printing money."

Just read that above link and you will see how those reserves are created to begin with... you would think that central banks base their reserves on gold or what not, but thats not the case... they just make up any old number they want.

Face it... going with the NAMA route, the government are just pi$sing into the wind with their eyes wide shut... they should take out the two fingers stuck in their arse and point them directly at the IMF and ECB

Warper

Yes

BLITZ_Molloy

Warper wrote: »

Yes

That would be an ecumenical matter.

fergusman

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"Our low corporation tax is what attracts multinationals to Ireland. The geographic location of Ireland is ideal for the European markets. We are an English speaking, highly educated workforce and that is where our merits lie... not in the hands of a super institution in Brussels.

Nothing mushroomed in Ireland, until we devalued our currency in the early 90s and that was an internal decision, no help for Brussels."

I agree with all of this but having tarriff free access to other european economies is central to the above, this has only been possible through the EU.

Devaluation was a pivotal moment of the 90's, but it was nothing to do with Irelands forward thinking or a grand plan to reposition itself and more to do with the massive devaluation of the Pound which preceeded it and forced Irish Punt devaluation to restore competitiveness with the UK.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"What makes you think we are going to cut ourselves off from the ECB if we reject Lisbon? It does not say that anywhere... have they threatend us, (that they will not put us in even more debt), not to provided us with further loans if we do reject?

I cant see Europe as it is turning its backs on us, they have to treat us the same way they have always done, even with a two step Europe... or else they will end up in their own European Court of human rights"

Yes but conversely the ECB is not under any obligation to rescue the Irish economy if it comes to it.
If we vote no on Lisbon I believe that the EU will be less inclined to bail us out, watch the credit default swaps on Irish Sovereign Debt, they will soar. The cost of borrowing for the Irish state and the Irish Banks will soar.... and then we are in even deeper ****.
If we were to default next stop is the IMF and I think we both agree that we really dont want those guys in here.

The EU and the Lisbon Treaty are far from perfect but for now I really dont think we have another path to take.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"Ever heard of how exacty the banks create money in the first place? And no, I am not talking about the printing of money, I talking about how they pull figures out of thin air to create "New Money". It works via the "Fractional Reserve Banking System"."

Yes I am well aware of this as is anyone who ever studied even a little economics. Its not exactly news.
However I was responding to what you said which was

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"Irish developers got LOANS from Irish banks -> The Irish banks got their LOANS from the ECB -> The ECB got its LOANS from the WORLD BANK/IMF -> That leads to the United States Federal Reserve"

which was misleading and innaccurate and sounds like its one big conspiracy, hence the tin hat reference.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"Oh sorry... the World bank, WOW... nice friendly bank of the world... very gererous of them to give those HUGE loans to those poor countries... heroes.... WRONG... they give those loans to those nations knowing they cant be paid back and then when those countries default... they hold a gun to their head and ask them nicely to hand over their resources and services..."

I'm well aware of the shortcomings of the World Bank and IMF, I find their privatisation of water supplies in developing countries particularly abbhorent.
where did I say I was a fan of theirs?
I just pointed out that they dont loan money to the ECB which you had previously stated.

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

"Face it... going with the NAMA route, the government are just pi$sing into the wind with their eyes wide shut... they should take out the two fingers stuck in their arse and point them directly at the IMF and ECB."

You could well be right but if we go ahead with NAMA and it fails then the IMF/EU arrive, if we dont the EU/IMF arrive.....
Either way we're probably ****ed for quite a few years.
Personally I'd like us to try something akin to Nama first, and try to get out of this mess on our own.
Unfortunately the calibre of our current governing politicians is scarily below what is really needed, like Mary Coughlan...jesus where the hell did they find her shes atrocious.

One thing I will say is that its a pity we cant devalue somehow within the Euro as we did in the early 90's with the punt but it looks like the ECB are intent on protecting the purchasing power of the Euro.

drunken_munky52

fergusman wrote: »

Yes I am well aware of this as is anyone who ever studied even a little economics. Its not exactly news.

You have obviously looked into this system in far too great detail then. For various banking terminolgy in it is a mere mask for what really is going on.

Fractional reserve banking is a system that allows for a great deal of debt to be accrued from a very small amount of money. Wikipedia defines it as:

...the banking practice in which banks keep only a fraction of their deposits in reserve (as cash and other highly liquid assets) with the choice of lending out the remainder, while maintaining the simultaneous obligation to redeem all deposits immediately upon demand. This practice is universal in modern banking.

This allows for large banks (such as European Central Bank) to create a system of debt that allows them to be at the top of an ever expanding Ponzi scheme.

Modern Money Mechanics, published by the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago, describes this system in great detail. The booklet is no longer in print, but is widely available on the Internet.

drunken_munky52

fergusman wrote: »

I agree with all of this but having tarriff free access to other european economies is central to the above, this has only been possible through the EU.

Devaluation was a pivotal moment of the 90's, but it was nothing to do with Irelands forward thinking or a grand plan to reposition itself and more to do with the massive devaluation of the Pound which preceeded it and forced Irish Punt devaluation to restore competitiveness with the UK.

fergusman wrote: »

Yes but conversely the ECB is not under any obligation to rescue the Irish economy if it comes to it.
If we vote no on Lisbon I believe that the EU will be less inclined to bail us out, watch the credit default swaps on Irish Sovereign Debt, they will soar. The cost of borrowing for the Irish state and the Irish Banks will soar.... and then we are in even deeper ****.
If we were to default next stop is the IMF and I think we both agree that we really dont want those guys in here.

Like I explained in the Lisbon thread, my main objections to it are in the order of:

1. Any suggestion of expanding ANY military spending, increasing the onas on countries to modernise their forces or ANY to do with the military is just a big no no for me... Im sorry... there is absolutlely no need to even promote the military anymore... if anything they should be finding ways to wind it down... I am totally oppsosed to any European treaty which makes provisions for the military, that includes Lisbon

2. The response to climate change mentioned in the treaty may as well be as useful as one of those "legal garuantees" written on a napkin. Totally lame and putting the entire world on the back foot. Back to the drawing board I say!

3. I dont trust the the ECB. Nor do I trust any bank, but I still need them for some fckd up reason! You mentioned "no obligation" for the ECB to rescue us... now I cant see what provisions are in the treaty that say, if Ireland does not vote yes, we will let you BURN... thats school yard stuff, this is different.

fergusman wrote: »

The EU and the Lisbon Treaty are far from perfect but for now I really dont think we have another path to take.

Far from perfect? How about "not far enough" in some cases and the other "perfect for big boys with big toys"

We do have another way... like I said, we gotta just let what happening play itself out first.. step back for awhile... RELAX... close your eyes and breathe... reconnect with your soul for a moment and get that money free feeling of hapiness, you know what Im on about.. now hold that thought and envolve like your should, thats natural.

fergusman

drunken_munky52 wrote: »

You have obviously looked into this system in far too great detail then. For various banking terminolgy in it is a mere mask for what really is going on.

Fractional reserve banking is a system that allows for a great deal of debt to be accrued from a very small amount of money. Wikipedia defines it as:

...the banking practice in which banks keep only a fraction of their deposits in reserve (as cash and other highly liquid assets) with the choice of lending out the remainder, while maintaining the simultaneous obligation to redeem all deposits immediately upon demand. This practice is universal in modern banking.

This allows for large banks (such as European Central Bank) to create a system of debt that allows them to be at the top of an ever expanding Ponzi scheme.

Modern Money Mechanics, published by the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago, describes this system in great detail. The booklet is no longer in print, but is widely available on the Internet.

Wikipedia???? Really??? Youre using that as a serious source?

You've probably also read "Web of Debt" by Ellen Brown which is referenced commonly in this argument.

The main difference is that a Ponzi Scheme is an out and out lie that relies on ever increasing numbers of new investors to support existing investors. Fractional reserve banking is not a lie and is a sustainable business model.

It would not be in the bankers interest to not give depositors their money on request if he was able to. As this would lead to all depositors requesting their money back and subsequently a lack of funds available to enable the banker to carry on the lending business, resulting in the banks eventual collapse.

It’s all about risk and reward, you give your money to the bank, at the very slight risk that you may not get it back, the reward is the interest you earn on that money. A higher risk investment would be purchasing corporate bonds (basically a loan to a company) again you take the risk that the company can’t pay back the loan to you but the reward is the bond’s yield (the interest on that loan that they pay you).

The problem really arises when banks lend too high a fraction of their deposits or make too many bad loans. This is part of what we saw recently in the credit-crunch and one of the reasons why the banks are desperately trying to rebuild their balance sheets.

It doesn’t mean the model of banking in necessarily bad or wrong it just means that mistakes were made, admittedly some ****ing huge mistakes, but the fractional reserve model of banking is, as a business model, a sustainable one when run within certain parameters and regulations.

And here’s a question: if it’s two days before payday and you have no cash, but use your credit card to fill your car with petrol, is that fraud?
It’s based on the same principles that underlie fractional reserve banking. You’re making a commitment to give someone money that you don’t have, on the expectation that someone will give you money before you need to pay that person.

If, say for a second you want to replace the current system with a hard money standard, this is still not going to prevent bank runs. Banks not committing fraud will prevent bank runs. However, a hard money standard will limit the scope of any fraud by exposing it at an earlier stage, unlike what we have today.

P.S. I find it funny considering I first studied this years ago that people are now convinced it is a ponzi scheme. Nobody anywhere referred to it as a ponzi scheme until very recently when the Bernie Madoff story broke.

So assuming youre right and I'm wrong (quite possible), what system do you propose?