Jim Martin wrote: » This country is busted, the only way to repair it is to flush it like a toilet and the only way to do that is to have an election!
drunken_munky wrote: NAMA will only serve to boost the share prices of the institutions it will be used on... thus returning the millions that have been wiped out by the fat cat elite in our ranks..
Blitz Molloy wrote: You won't hear the politicians or media talking about this for obvious reasons but it's the ordinary Irish people who are largely at fault for the mess we're in now. Banks and developers have always been trying to rob the ordinary consumer, most of us just let greed get the better of us and decided to pay way over the odds for property.
Yes bring on Nama get rid of the toxic assets at todays values not at over inflated prices.
Just vote NO on Lisbon
Western_sean wrote: » This isn't really correct. The current share prices of these institutions suggest impending nationalisation with the equity holders being largely wiped out. These share prices are really behaving more like long dated options and thinly traded ones at that. The bond holders are the ones who gain most from NAMA. I don't really agree with this either. Property losses are to a large degree focused on a generation of people currently between there late 20's and late 30s those younger and older are mostly unaffected. This is a very small portion of the overall population (roughly 16% at 2006 census), and to my mind coupled with the few large developers this portion of the population is responsible for the problem. - And as you have observed is no suffering most in terms of negative equity and will likely suffer again in terms of taxation, poor services, job losses etc. This is in effect a delayed nationalisation as doing this ensures the large banks require significant government cash to survive in the short-medium term. I can see some merit to this approach though not perhaps for the purpose suggested, however I do wonder who you would suggest we borrow money from when international bond markets realise we're a joke and we have given 2 fingers to the Germans in the form of a no to Lisbon?
Rujib1 wrote: » 2. Cool heads who think rationally and logically and lead most of the sheep out of danger with some casualties but primarily intact. Most posters in this thread belong to the sheep category. Western Sean and Fancy That are in the latter category. The rest of you sheep, need to follow the sheperds, or get mauled by the wolves :cool: R1
drunken_munky52 wrote: » Cool heads? Another catogoy for the likes of the above, catogorised as another member of the animal kingdom "Blind Bats", or Ostrichs with their heads buried in the sand... Lets remember that the tax payer will be paying for this... that equates to me working my shhiity 9-5 shift for LIFE and not even coming off close to pay for the greed of a handfull of ignorant grease balls in shiny Armani suits!!! So effectively, all my life I will be working to pay off a loan to the bank I never even signed up for... another way of looking at it is MODERN DAY SLAVERY... Get real mate... the shepards dont serve the sheep, the serve the wolves... dont dare equate this scenario to a bible story... it is far easier to understand this without reading an outdated 2000 year old human user guide
drunken_munky52 wrote: » Cool heads? Another catogoy for the likes of the above, catogorised as another member of the animal kingdom "Blind Bats", or Ostrichs with their heads buried in the sand... Lets remember that the tax payer will be paying for this... that equates to me working my mundane 9-5 shift for LIFE and not even coming off close to pay for the greed of a handfull of ignorant grease balls in shiny Armani suits!!! So effectively, all my life I will be working to pay off a loan to the bank I never even signed up for... another way of looking at it is MODERN DAY SLAVERY... Get real mate... the shepards dont serve the sheep, the serve the wolves, the shepards are the wolves... dont equate this scenario to a bible story... it is far easier to understand this without reading an outdated 2000 year old human user guide
BLITZ_Molloy wrote: » ....most of us just let greed get the better of us and decided to pay way over the odds for property. If we'd all had a better sense of proportion about things and decided not to buy a house if the price was wrong the oligarchy wouldn't have been able to fleece us as much as they did.
Run_to_da_hills wrote: » Just vote NO on Lisbon This will kick Fianna Fail out of power in a run up General Election and stop NAMA dead in its tracks. Kill two birds with one stone.
fergusman wrote: » How the hell does voting no to Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament?
fergusman wrote: » Without the ECB and the european bond market where the hell are we going to borrow money to keep us afloat. I was always a slight euro sceptic but now is really not the time to vote no or pull back from the EU it will only hasten foreign companies retranchement from ireland and make our position worse.
fergusman wrote: » Voting No to punish Fianna Fail is the political equivalent of cutting off your nose to spite your face.
fergusman wrote: » To just blame the banks and the developers while accurate is also a bit simplistic. As Blitz Molloy pointed out no one was FORCED to buy anything in this country and everyone benefited from the Celtic tiger while it boomed. The country as a whole lost the run of itself.... not just the rich developers and bankers... we as a nation became obsessed with property.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » How does voting FOR Lisbon help this country in any way given our current predicament? We have been making good arguements so far against the treaty, now its time for the YES siders like you to come up with good reasons why we should vote yes.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » Please understand that the ECB are ultimatley to blame for our current woes, as they were the root source for the credit that gave the Irish banks the ability to loan the the money to ordinary people and developers in the first place. Why should we put our faith in such a "reckless" institution once again, when they were the ones that grossley overlent way beyond their means.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » I agree... we must reject this treaty not to punish FF, not to punish anyone for that matter... but to reject the EU corporate elite who have deliberatly engineered this mess, by providing the banks of Europe with loans that effectively cant be repaid for decades to come.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » The likes of you keep blaming our own banks and developers for losing the run of ourselves... it should be apparant by now from my above arguements... that Irish developers got LOANS from Irish banks -> The Irish banks got their LOANS from the ECB -> The ECB got its LOANS from the WORLD BANK/IMF -> That leads to the United States Federal Reserve, who are no more federal than federal express... follow the money trail and it is easy to see who has the ordinary people by the balls in this day and age... I could go on with this... but I would like to hear your view first on where this is going and answer my first question.
fergusman wrote: » [ Simple by staying closer to europe we will retain our attractiveness to multinational companies that provide FDI and jobs in Ireland.
fergusman wrote: » Also to cut ourselves off from the ECB and access to borrowing right now would turn us into something worse than iceland. If the **** really hits the fan here then we are really going to need help from the EU and the IMF and thats just the way it is. Do you know of some other magical place where we can get the money to keep the country going?
fergusman wrote: » Actually this is a very simplistic view of the capital money markets and does not reflect reality. Commercial banks dont just borrow from the ECB they also borrow from other banks and financial institutions using a variety of financial instruments. The ECB does lend money to banks and is responsible for the money supply in the Eurozone as well as interest rates etc.
fergusman wrote: » World Bank (funding for developing countries only) or from the IMF (countries experiencing balance of payments problems). It is financed solely from its reserves and if needed by physically printing money.
Warper wrote: » Yes
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "Our low corporation tax is what attracts multinationals to Ireland. The geographic location of Ireland is ideal for the European markets. We are an English speaking, highly educated workforce and that is where our merits lie... not in the hands of a super institution in Brussels. Nothing mushroomed in Ireland, until we devalued our currency in the early 90s and that was an internal decision, no help for Brussels."
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "What makes you think we are going to cut ourselves off from the ECB if we reject Lisbon? It does not say that anywhere... have they threatend us, (that they will not put us in even more debt), not to provided us with further loans if we do reject? I cant see Europe as it is turning its backs on us, they have to treat us the same way they have always done, even with a two step Europe... or else they will end up in their own European Court of human rights"
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "Ever heard of how exacty the banks create money in the first place? And no, I am not talking about the printing of money, I talking about how they pull figures out of thin air to create "New Money". It works via the "Fractional Reserve Banking System"."
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "Irish developers got LOANS from Irish banks -> The Irish banks got their LOANS from the ECB -> The ECB got its LOANS from the WORLD BANK/IMF -> That leads to the United States Federal Reserve"
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "Oh sorry... the World bank, WOW... nice friendly bank of the world... very gererous of them to give those HUGE loans to those poor countries... heroes.... WRONG... they give those loans to those nations knowing they cant be paid back and then when those countries default... they hold a gun to their head and ask them nicely to hand over their resources and services..."
drunken_munky52 wrote: » "Face it... going with the NAMA route, the government are just pi$sing into the wind with their eyes wide shut... they should take out the two fingers stuck in their arse and point them directly at the IMF and ECB."
fergusman wrote: » Yes I am well aware of this as is anyone who ever studied even a little economics. Its not exactly news.
fergusman wrote: » I agree with all of this but having tarriff free access to other european economies is central to the above, this has only been possible through the EU. Devaluation was a pivotal moment of the 90's, but it was nothing to do with Irelands forward thinking or a grand plan to reposition itself and more to do with the massive devaluation of the Pound which preceeded it and forced Irish Punt devaluation to restore competitiveness with the UK. fergusman wrote: » Yes but conversely the ECB is not under any obligation to rescue the Irish economy if it comes to it. If we vote no on Lisbon I believe that the EU will be less inclined to bail us out, watch the credit default swaps on Irish Sovereign Debt, they will soar. The cost of borrowing for the Irish state and the Irish Banks will soar.... and then we are in even deeper ****. If we were to default next stop is the IMF and I think we both agree that we really dont want those guys in here. Like I explained in the Lisbon thread, my main objections to it are in the order of: 1. Any suggestion of expanding ANY military spending, increasing the onas on countries to modernise their forces or ANY to do with the military is just a big no no for me... Im sorry... there is absolutlely no need to even promote the military anymore... if anything they should be finding ways to wind it down... I am totally oppsosed to any European treaty which makes provisions for the military, that includes Lisbon 2. The response to climate change mentioned in the treaty may as well be as useful as one of those "legal garuantees" written on a napkin. Totally lame and putting the entire world on the back foot. Back to the drawing board I say! 3. I dont trust the the ECB. Nor do I trust any bank, but I still need them for some fckd up reason! You mentioned "no obligation" for the ECB to rescue us... now I cant see what provisions are in the treaty that say, if Ireland does not vote yes, we will let you BURN... thats school yard stuff, this is different. fergusman wrote: » The EU and the Lisbon Treaty are far from perfect but for now I really dont think we have another path to take. Far from perfect? How about "not far enough" in some cases and the other "perfect for big boys with big toys" We do have another way... like I said, we gotta just let what happening play itself out first.. step back for awhile... RELAX... close your eyes and breathe... reconnect with your soul for a moment and get that money free feeling of hapiness, you know what Im on about.. now hold that thought and envolve like your should, thats natural.
fergusman wrote: » Yes but conversely the ECB is not under any obligation to rescue the Irish economy if it comes to it. If we vote no on Lisbon I believe that the EU will be less inclined to bail us out, watch the credit default swaps on Irish Sovereign Debt, they will soar. The cost of borrowing for the Irish state and the Irish Banks will soar.... and then we are in even deeper ****. If we were to default next stop is the IMF and I think we both agree that we really dont want those guys in here.
fergusman wrote: » The EU and the Lisbon Treaty are far from perfect but for now I really dont think we have another path to take.
drunken_munky52 wrote: » You have obviously looked into this system in far too great detail then. For various banking terminolgy in it is a mere mask for what really is going on. Fractional reserve banking is a system that allows for a great deal of debt to be accrued from a very small amount of money. Wikipedia defines it as: ...the banking practice in which banks keep only a fraction of their deposits in reserve (as cash and other highly liquid assets) with the choice of lending out the remainder, while maintaining the simultaneous obligation to redeem all deposits immediately upon demand. This practice is universal in modern banking. This allows for large banks (such as European Central Bank) to create a system of debt that allows them to be at the top of an ever expanding Ponzi scheme. Modern Money Mechanics, published by the Federal Reserve Bank in Chicago, describes this system in great detail. The booklet is no longer in print, but is widely available on the Internet.
