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Whats the strangest degree from a GEM student?

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  • 02-09-2009 4:46pm
    #1
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭


    Sorry about the peculiar thread title.
    Basically how much of an advantage does doing a science or nursing degree give you going into GEM compared to a different degrees?

    I know two different people who went from actuary degrees to graduate medicine and they seem to be coping ok.Also a few people I know are doing a general science course with the aim of GEM after.

    Providing you make it in past the aptitude test how much of a grounding do these courses offer you?

    Also what is the most far removed degree you have heard someone doing either with the intention of going into GEM or have gone through the system.

    I thought this might be an interesting topic.
    Remmy


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    #2
    Jessibelle
    Registered Users Posts: 1,759 ✭✭✭Jessibelle


    Cousin of mine got a place on GEM with a Degree in Furniture Design from UU. Loves it and seems to be very inclined towards the medical side of things also:) (He did do a crash science course before starting though ;))


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    #3
    allsaintssue
    Closed Accounts Posts: 119 ✭✭allsaintssue


    I heard of people doing GEm when their previous degrees have been in photography and theology


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    #4
    Alpha1.2
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭Alpha1.2


    I know one guy personally who went into GEM from Music. He's one of the most intelligent people in his class.

    My GP did marketing before Med


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    #5
    Echani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭Echani


    I'm a philosophy graduate. Quite useless for most things so far in medicine other than being a capable writer and having had a very social part-time job during my primary degree which helps quite a bit on the patient interaction side of things.

    Having a relevant science degree helps during 1st year; having covered genetics, biochem, physiology, anatomy etc takes a lot of pressure off. That said, in 2nd year onwards there's very little difference between students based on background - work ethic becomes much more important.

    People with a background in healthcare (nursing, physio) tend to be quite comfortable in a clinical setting, but there's no major difference in grades.


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    #6
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    Some really interesting posts here!Im always having this discussion with a friend of mine who is also thinking of GEM.She is doing General Science in trinity and I'm doing law so I must really point her toward this thread.thanks guys!


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    #7
    Echani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭Echani


    Remmy wrote: »
    Some really interesting posts here!Im always having this discussion with a friend of mine who is also thinking of GEM.She is doing General Science in trinity and I'm doing law so I must really point her toward this thread.thanks guys!

    We've got a lawyer in my year too, I believe he's doing quite well for himself :)


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    #8
    charlieroot
    Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭charlieroot


    I did financial and actuarial maths before hand. I don't know if that counts as being strange?

    Directly, I found very little of use from my previous course - two exceptions: all the stats were laughable easy and I think I was the only person to understand the axis on ecg's the first time round and why they're called P,Q,R,S,T waves.

    Other than that, I do think the training in maths helps you think in a very logical manner, which I think has been helpful in a general sense.


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    #9
    RCSI_GEP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭RCSI_GEP


    Remmy wrote: »
    Basically how much of an advantage does doing a science or nursing degree give you going into GEM compared to a different degrees?

    I know two different people who went from actuary degrees to graduate medicine and they seem to be coping ok.Also a few people I know are doing a general science course with the aim of GEM after.

    Providing you make it in past the aptitude test how much of a grounding do these courses offer you?

    The Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland has the longest running Irish Graduate Entry medical Programme and to date there is no evidence that previous degree discipline has any bearing on performance in the course. It appears from the limited data so far that if you get a high enough GAMSAT score to get onto our programme, you are capable of progressing through it, regardless of previous academic background.

    For further information and a chance to talk to current science / non-science students you should come to the RCSI Graduate Entry Programme Open Day in November. See this link for further information:
    http://www.rcsi.ie/gep/openday

    Good luck.


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    #10
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    RCSI_GEP wrote: »
    The Royal College of Surgeons of Ireland has the longest running Irish Graduate Entry medical Programme and to date there is no evidence that previous degree discipline has any bearing on performance in the course. It appears from the limited data so far that if you get a high enough GAMSAT score to get onto our programme, you are capable of progressing through it, regardless of previous academic background.

    For further information and a chance to talk to current science / non-science students you should come to the RCSI Graduate Entry Programme Open Day in November. See this link for further information:
    http://www.rcsi.ie/gep/openday

    Good luck.


    There's no way you can tell me that a person who has a degree in physio, with all their experience in respiratory+musculoskeletal disease, plus their knowledge of anatomy and physiology is not going to perform better than someone with a degree in English?

    Having said that, charlieroot, I agree with the maths thing being useful, but I don't know why :P We had a maths and a physics grad in our year, and they were fantastic. Everyone else had done biology of some sort, except one girl with a degree in art or something. She's really struggling as a postgrad. But we didn't have GAMSAT back then to select for people with an aptitude for sciences.


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    #11
    RCSI_GEP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭RCSI_GEP


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    There's no way you can tell me that a person who has a degree in physio, with all their experience in respiratory+musculoskeletal disease, plus their knowledge of anatomy and physiology is not going to perform better than someone with a degree in English?
    Based on the past three years data we can find no clear performance relationship between science and non science degrees or even between health science degrees (we do have a few physiotherapy graduates) and physical science degrees. There are undoubtedly areas of the course where some people might do better based on previous experience, but we run an integrated curriculum when you look at the course as a whole, there is no evidence to support a difference.


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    #12
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    So, do you mean the people with science backgrounds are not getting higher grades than those with non science backgrounds? Or do you mean everyone is passing?

    If you're an official rep from RCSI, then welcome. If we can help you interact with potential or current students, let us know, and we'll endeavour to help you as much as we can. :)

    Can you also maybe tackle the criticisms os the GEM courses. I haven't worked in Ireland in a long time, so I can't speak about it first hand. But the feedback coming my way, has been that the GEM courses are dumbing down medicine significantly, with no real grounding in the preclinical sciences, and significantly less theory than the tradition medical degree had.

    I would say my experience in Oz backs that up. But I have no idea if that's the case in Ireland. So, what parts of the course have you cut out?


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    #13
    RCSI_GEP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭RCSI_GEP


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    So, do you mean the people with science backgrounds are not getting higher grades than those with non science backgrounds? Or do you mean everyone is passing?

    Both. I haven't gone as far as looking at individual modules yet but overall, pretty much everyone passes and those who do best seem equally likely to come from science or non-science backgrounds. As I mentioned before, we have an integrated programme which means there is no mark for 'Anatomy' or 'Physiology'. These traditional disciplines are integrated into systems-based modules.
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    If you're an official rep from RCSI, then welcome. If we can help you interact with potential or current students, let us know, and we'll endeavour to help you as much as we can. :)

    I do work on the RCSI GEP and I would be happy to address any queries regarding the RCSI Graduate Entry Programme
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Can you also maybe tackle the criticisms os the GEM courses. I haven't worked in Ireland in a long time, so I can't speak about it first hand. But the feedback coming my way, has been that the GEM courses are dumbing down medicine significantly, with no real grounding in the preclinical sciences, and significantly less theory than the tradition medical degree had.
    I would say my experience in Oz backs that up. But I have no idea if that's the case in Ireland. So, what parts of the course have you cut out?

    Obviously I can only speak for RCSI as the other programmes use different instructional models. We run a separate 2 year programme for GEP students. During this time the students have a dedicated curriculum and dedicated facilities / staff. On completion of these 2 years the students merge with their counterparts in the traditional programme for the final 2 years. So we reduce the first 3 years of the traditional programme to 2 years in GEP.
    We cannot cut anything out because all our students have to have the same knowledge and skills when they merge in the clinical years. We achieve the time saving by having a more intensive course and using different instructional methods (small group teaching, problem-based learning etc.). Where possible, all information is presented in a clinical context and related to clinical scenarios. For example, each week begins with a case presentation and much of the following lectures, tutorials, practicals etc. will be linked to that case. GEP students also get very early clinical exposure so they can link the new information to reality. They participate in Grand Rounds every week and start going out to hospitals in the first year.

    We will graduate our first students later this year and this will start to give us a much better idea of how successful the RCSI programme and the whole Irish GEM initiative might be.
    I think RCSI have had their money's worth of propaganda out of me this morning!

    Best wishes


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    #14
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    So, do your GEM students do the same amount of hours as the undergrads, but just packed into hols? Is that physically possible?

    How do they complete their dissections and prac labs in this time, for example?

    I'm not trying to pick holes. Really, I'm not. It's just a lot of docs have concerns. I was out for dinner the other night, and we were talking about a kid we all knew from the kids hospital who'd become very ill. He had a metabolic illness. The one GEM guy at the table had A) never heard of it and B) didn't understand it when we explained it to him because he's never had to learn the steps in the metabolic pathways. Now, that's on ozzie grad. So, not neccessarilly indicative of what's happening in Eurpope. But he was also telling us he's never dissected, and only did minimal practical labs. He claims he didn't do any more than a handful of pharmacology lectures, too.
    RCSI_GEP wrote: »
    I think RCSI have had their money's worth of propaganda out of me this morning!

    Best wishes

    We appreciate it, though. It's great to have info from the horse's mouth. RCSI has a great reputation, and if we can help you get info out to students, just ask us.


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    #15
    RCSI_GEP
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5 ✭RCSI_GEP


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    So, do your GEM students do the same amount of hours as the undergrads, but just packed into hols? Is that physically possible?

    I haven't done the sums but I'm pretty sure that the number of contact hours is probably about the same. We start a bit earlier in the day and fit more in. Also, our comparatively small class sizes and dedicated facilities mean that we don't have to run multiple copies of the same activities. We can get the whole class through the same anatomy practical (for example) all at once. Also, as the GEP students are more experienced learners we can rely a little more on autonomous learning. The GEP holidays would be shorter because the GEPs have an intensive 1 month Clinical Attachment in the summer between years 1 & 2
    tallaght01 wrote: »
    How do they complete their dissections and prac labs in this time, for example?

    As a surgical college, anatomy plays a very important role in the curriculum. GEP students do the same dissections as their collegues in the traditional programme. GEP students have anatomy practical sessions 2 afternoons a week for the first year.

    tallaght01 wrote: »
    I'm not trying to pick holes. Really, I'm not. It's just a lot of docs have concerns. I was out for dinner the other night, and we were talking about a kid we all knew from the kids hospital who'd become very ill. He had a metabolic illness. The one GEM guy at the table had A) never heard of it and B) didn't understand it when we explained it to him because he's never had to learn the steps in the metabolic pathways. Now, that's on ozzie grad. So, not neccessarilly indicative of what's happening in Eurpope. But he was also telling us he's never dissected, and only did minimal practical labs. He claims he didn't do any more than a handful of pharmacology lectures, too.
    Thats quite alright, I am happy to address any queries that are within my area. As I mentioned before there are a variety of Graduate Entry Models throughout the world with their inherent strengths and weaknesses but I can only comment on the RCSI model.

    tallaght01 wrote: »
    We appreciate it, though. It's great to have info from the horse's mouth. RCSI has a great reputation, and if we can help you get info out to students, just ask us.

    As above I am always happy to answer questions and will continue to monitor the forum. For any students considering Graduate Entry Medicine in Ireland in the coming years, my advice would be to do your research. It is a big committment (not least financially) so make sure you identify which of the particular Irish programmes suits your needs and partcular learning style. Most courses will have open days so you can view the facilites and ask questions in person. The next RCSI Graduate Entry Programme Open Day is in November. Details and registration for this free event are from the RCSI GEP website:
    Link to RCSI GEP Wesite

    Best wishes


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    #16
    etymon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭etymon


    I have a Barrister-at-Law Degree
    That's pretty random eh ;)
    although I'm not in... yet... was accepted to UL though


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    #17
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    i think everyone can bring something to the table

    i know a guy that did civ eng and then nursing....he was one of the biggest messers i knew

    he probably invent something for nurses now and make a fortune


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    #18
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    etymon wrote: »
    I have a Barrister-at-Law Degree
    That's pretty random eh ;)
    although I'm not in... yet... was accepted to UL though

    yeah i was talking to a guy before that was a GP and a barrister and a soliciter he said there's only one other person in ireland the same, huge potential to make money in the medical law side of things

    it would be funny i patient ever threatens to sue, you just turn around and say "look at the degree next to my medical degree"


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    #19
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    liberal wrote: »
    yeah i was talking to a guy before that was a GP and a barrister and a soliciter he said there's only one other person in ireland the same, huge potential to make money in the medical law side of things

    it would be funny i patient ever threatens to sue, you just turn around and say "look at the degree next to my medical degree"


    God he must have have been into his thirties before he went into med school...You dont know what age he started med school do you?


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    #20
    PhysiologyRocks
    Registered Users Posts: 2,813 ✭✭✭PhysiologyRocks


    Remmy wrote: »
    God he must have have been into his thirties before he went into med school...You dont know what age he started med school do you?

    Someone in my class is 43. And it's a 5 year course.


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    #21
    etymon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 467 ✭✭etymon


    well, I was a barrister at 21. Could have converted to solicitor within a year (22) and gone straight to Grad Med in September, making me all three at the ripe old age of 26!
    Wouldn't that be a nice little earner ;)


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    #22
    runawaytrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭runawaytrain


    Whats the lowest LC points of someone doing GEM?


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    #23
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    runawaytrain wrote: »
    Whats the lowest LC points of someone doing GEM?

    Thats a kinda subjective question.But I think anyone able to get a 2:1 in a level 8 degree coudn't have scored too badly on the LC.


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    #24
    Echani
    Closed Accounts Posts: 109 ✭✭Echani


    RCSI GEP might have some figures, but I can't recall ever hearing anyone talk about their LC points in my class, being entirely irrelevant to us as they are. People rarely even talk about their GAMSAT results in fact.


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    #25
    runawaytrain
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33 ✭runawaytrain


    What the most amount of times you have heard of someone taking the GAMSAT?


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    #26
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    Remmy wrote: »
    God he must have have been into his thirties before he went into med school...You dont know what age he started med school do you?

    yeah he was still in his twenties he became a barrister and solicitor at the same time (he said thats how they rolled back then), he also had a degree in philosphy or something, really nice guy

    his advice to me about doing GEM is never think your too old, he said that to me after i said "well 23 might b a bit old to start medicine"


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    #27
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    runawaytrain wrote: »
    What the most amount of times you have heard of someone taking the GAMSAT?

    ive heard 4...

    i think the first time you take it you know weither or not you'll ever be able to get it


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    #28
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    Remmy wrote: »
    Thats a kinda subjective question.But I think anyone able to get a 2:1 in a level 8 degree coudn't have scored too badly on the LC.
    you can get a level 8 course at around 275 points, which is pretty dire stright d3s


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    #29
    Remmy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,921 ✭✭✭Remmy


    imported_guy wrote: »
    you can get a level 8 course at around 275 points, which is pretty dire stright d3s

    yes but would the same person have the work ethic to plough on for 3 or 4 years and finish their degree with a 2:1 .I'm not saying they wouldn't mind I'm just thinking out loud here..


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    #30
    imported_guy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,141 ✭✭✭imported_guy


    Remmy wrote: »
    yes but would the same person have the work ethic to plough on for 3 or 4 years and finish their degree with a 2:1 .I'm not saying they wouldn't mind I'm just thinking out loud here..

    ]AL032 Software Design (Games Development) 230
    AL050 Business 230


    ah apparently i was wrong, i calculated my points with 6 ds in honours which is 275

    there are level 8 courses which i think only require 2 honours subjects

    http://www2.cao.ie/points/lvl8_09_rnd2.htm

    well in alot of courses (like mine) only require you to get 60% in all exams + project in final year to get a 2.1, which is like a c3 in leaving cert standards, isnt too bad and if you look at it the work load will be alot less and 1st class honours is only 70% which is like a b3 so getting a 2.1 is pretty easy in my course if you scrape passes (or even pass repeats and keep going) until final year and put your work in (cant have repeats in final year then you only get a pass result), but i would doubt they can get good enough GAMSAT results though


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    #31
    liberal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 291 ✭✭liberal


    imported_guy wrote: »
    well in alot of courses (like mine) only require you to get 60% in all exams + project in final year to get a 2.1, which is like a c3 in leaving cert standards, isnt too bad and if you look at it the work load will be alot less and 1st class honours is only 70% which is like a b3 so getting a 2.1

    i take it ur new to this college game

    getting a 2.2 invovles spending as much time as possible studying in final year, getting a 1.1 invovles spending as much time as possible studying and being both smart and lucky

    you should do a science course in one of the ITs if ur hoping to do medicine I reckon, would set you up nicely for the gamsat


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