Lisbon II - The A&A Thread

Sam Vimes

No

sink wrote: »

It's obviously another yes from me. I find it interesting that A&A leans so staggeringly towards Yes side camp. Maybe Atheist & Agnostics have a better bull**** filter then the general population.

Well that goes without saying doesn't it

That's why we're atheists and agnostics in the first place

ShooterSF

Not going to vote

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

Speak for yourself

By the way the Politics forum's poll is similar to AH's.

ANTIFA!

No

yeah from me

marco_polo

No

Yipee I can resume posting here. I have been busy elsewhere recently .

Galvasean

No

Halla Basin wrote: »

What does Coir stand to gain from a No Vote?

Well, they seem to be of the opinion that abortion will sneak into Ireland if we vote Yes (it actually has no effect on the matter).

ANTIFA!

No

I think I know why the yes side on this forum is winning by so much. EU is seen by people who think they are 'progressive' types as being a pre-cursor to being 'European' which denotes open-mindness, liberalism and all that kind of thing which is kinda in Ireland what you associate with being Atheist. Just how I see it.

ANTIFA!

No

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

I don't agree entirely. The yes side attempts to portray that if Ireland was to vote no to Lisbon we would be thrown out and that we are truly unique among Europe that we reject the treaty when in reality in many countries it would be defeated(sweden and uk for example)

marco_polo

No

Auto yes poll boost

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61921734&postcount=1996

Handsome Bob

No

Zillah wrote: »

Now that's curious.

23-3 at the moment. Compared to the After Hours poll which is quite close but leaning towards no.

I think it is very telling that the Yes campaign is based on facts and good arguments, and that the No campaign is based on lies, exaggeration and fear mongering -- and we see that the majority are being duped by the No campaign and here we are, once again in the reasonable minority.

Too bad the Yes campaign are inept, otherwise we would have a lot more people in the Yes camp.

Coriolanus

No

I'll be voting yes, same as last time.

As for why, well, I'm an incorrigible federalist. For me at least, this Treaty doesn't go nearly enough.

Turtwig

No

Voting Yes as before

I've actually forgotten most of this treaty:o, but I was fairly convinced the first time and I managed to convince family too:cool:


Time to repeat!

Oh and btw, Clare was one of the counties that voted 'yes; the last time

Galvasean

No

Zillah, I noticed you voted Yes in this poll. Will you be able to vote in the actual referendum?

OK-Cancel-Apply

No

Voting Yes, like last time. Had plenty of time to think it over at this stage! As someone said earlier, we're seeing the same old 'Creationist' style card tricks as before from the 'No' side.

rainbow kirby

Undecided at the moment, but leaning towards a Yes.

No

I voted no last year, but after putting a lot more research into my decision, I've changed to a yes vote.

Turtwig

No

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Undecided at the moment, but leaning towards a Yes.

Lean further:)

Obni

Not going to vote

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if the 'Yes' vote had triumphed in a legitimate democratic ballot the last time, they'd now be asking us again, just in case we'd changed our minds to 'No'. Wouldn't they?

I think the best argument for voting 'Yes' this time is that they're only going to try again next year if we repeat the 'No' vote. If we just let them pass the bloody thing then we can use all of our dwindling public finances to pay for NAMA.

On the subject of which, wouldn't it be cheaper to run the inevitable NAMA tribunals concurrently with NAMA, rather than after it gets buggered up?

Zillah

No

Obni wrote: »

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

In a democracy people are allowed to change their minds. The only reason you would resist a second vote is that you are afraid that enough people have changed their minds, meaning it would pass this time.

Hence, your objection to re-submitting the treaty is massively undemocratic: You want to prevent a potential "Yes" majority from having their democratic will done.

robindch

No

ANTIFA! wrote: »

The yes side attempts to portray that if Ireland was to vote no to Lisbon we would be thrown out

If the Irish electorate, through the Treaty as negotiated by the Irish government, doesn't agree with the future direction that all the other member countries have agreed, then -- other than a third referendum or the government implementing the Treaty regardless of the result -- I don't see any realistic alternative to Ireland withdrawing from the EU and leaving the other countries get on with it without us.

ANTIFA! wrote: »

and that we are truly unique among Europe that we reject the treaty when in reality in many countries it would be defeated (sweden and uk for example)

...and the other countries would probably reject it for reasons which are as appallingly stupid as the reasons the Irish electorate voted down the Treaty last year.

When people refuse to inform themselves about the issue they've voting upon and either vote upon something issue unconnected with the merits of the case, or simply outsource their opinions to cranks, nutters and single-issue fanatics, that's when democracy stops working.

marco_polo

No

Obni wrote: »

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.
Must be just me. :rolleyes:

I'm sure if the 'Yes' vote had triumphed in a legitimate democratic ballot the last time, they'd now be asking us again, just in case we'd changed our minds to 'No'. Wouldn't they?

I think the best argument for voting 'Yes' this time is that they're only going to try again next year if we repeat the 'No' vote. If we just let them pass the bloody thing then we can use all of our dwindling public finances to pay for NAMA.

On the subject of which, wouldn't it be cheaper to run the inevitable NAMA tribunals concurrently with NAMA, rather than after it gets buggered up?

You have much too high an opinion of us if you think that this will be coming around a third time.

But I expect we will have little trouble getting the better deal that Sinn Fein wants next time around.

26 Other Member states: Ok right, we have ripped up the Lisbon lets start again. Since it can't be abortion, tax or neutrality this time around. What are the major issues about the future direction of Europe that you would like us to address?

Ireland: Eh .... No to Nama?

26 other Member states:

robindch

No

Obni wrote: »

Glad to see that the fact that re-submitting the treaty for approval by plebiscite is fundamentally anti-democratic, isn't causing people any problems.

Last year's result -- see my previous posting -- was fundamentally undemocratic since the majority of people did not vote upon the issue at hand, and instead voted, say, to give Brian Cowen a bloody nose (huh?), because they didn't like FF's attitude to taxi drivers, thought that there was some merit to Declan Ganley's rubbish, didn't like what Shell is doing in Mayo, objected to abortion or euthanasia, and so on and so on.

The number of people who read the Treaty, tried to understand it in context, and voted upon its merits seem to have been a depressingly small minority.

Let's not forget either that this is going to referendum in the first place on account of Ray Crotty, the SEA and a 1987 (?) judgment of the Supreme Court. This referendum has little or nothing to do with the system of representative democracy as defined by the Irish Constitution.

Daftendirekt

No

I'll be voting Yes once again. Haven't read the entire treaty, but I've read enough of it, along with other research, to satisfy myself that I'm making the right choice.

There's nothing even vaguely alarming in it, and both the increase in power to the Parliament and the Citizens' Initiative are a huge plus for me.

I just wish Fianna Fáil had stepped down, so we'd have a government with a mandate spearheading the Yes campaign.


Still though, here's hoping!

Dr. Baltar

Not going to vote

"No" for what the yes people think are all the wrong reasons.

Zillah

No

Sir Baralot wrote: »

"No" for what the yes people think are all the wrong reasons.

Your crypticism, while obviously dark and sexy, is not very constructive to discussion.

Galvasean

No

Sir Baralot wrote: »

"No" for what the yes people think are all the wrong reasons.

Because you think the minimum wage would actually be lowered to €1.84?

Sam Vimes

No

Galvasean wrote: »

Because you think the minimum wage would actually be lowered to €1.84?

Most likely because of the compulsory abortions

Dades

No

Sam Vimes wrote: »

Most likely because of the compulsory abortions

Could be to avoid the enactment of the proposed Logan's Run Bill in section IX, subsection (iii) of the Treaty. :pac:

Naz_st

No

robindch wrote: »

Last year's result -- see my previous posting -- was fundamentally undemocratic since the majority of people did not vote upon the issue at hand, and instead voted, say, to give Brian Cowen a bloody nose (huh?), because they didn't like FF's attitude to taxi drivers, thought that there was some merit to Declan Ganley's rubbish, didn't like what Shell is doing in Mayo, objected to abortion or euthanasia, and so on and so on.

The number of people who read the Treaty, tried to understand it in context, and voted upon its merits seem to have been a depressingly small minority.

"The best argument you can make against democracy is a five minute conversation with an average voter." -Winston Churchill

Seems appropriate sometimes...

OK-Cancel-Apply

No

Before Lisbon 1, I read up on everything I could, but in the back of my mind, a strong reason for my Yes vote was the realisation that our vote is pretty much a formality. It's not 'democracy at work' - we are a very small and insignificant country, so if we don't play ball, we WILL be eventually told to shag off. Simple as. We think we have power..well, we don't.

sink

No

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

Before Lisbon 1, I read up on everything I could, but in the back of my mind, a strong reason for my Yes vote was the realisation that our vote is pretty much a formality. It's not 'democracy at work' - we are a very small and insignificant country, so if we don't play ball, we WILL be eventually told to shag off. Simple as. We think we have power..well, we don't.

If you were on a football team and you didn't play ball, you would eventually be told to shag off as well. Same goes for any organisation, if you don't want to constructively partake in the activities of the organisation and are just going to be a burden, the organisation should expel you. Identify one organisation were this is not the case.