Do you believe in the Devil?

Porkpie

I've met him recently. He's a very warm person.

philologos

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Human beings have a major weakness, and it is that we are self-aware.

Hm okay.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

And because people are afraid of their inevitable deaths, religion is a way for people to attempt to come to terms with their mortality. But it went further than that, and became yet another means for the powerful few to control the weak, corrupt, many - the Catholic Church from the Dark Ages on (where we at least have accounts of the Crusades etc.) is a prime example of this.

1. I'm far more concerned about my life now than the hereafter.

2. Powerful to control the weak assumes that everyone must be a member of a certain institution to be a Christian. This isn't the case. People can read the Bible for themselves and people can meet together and discuss these beliefs in different ways.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

People being what they are, a few will always want to control as many of the others as they can, religion is a particularly insidious way of doing so. 'yes believe in MY story and you will have eternal life, and be forgiven all the disgusting, immoral things you do in your short mortal life'.

I don't understand who is controlling me by my own personal faith in Jesus Christ. Tell me who is benefiting from my faith in any sense? A lot of countries find public faith to be more troublesome than not from the Romans to many states today from China, to the UK.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

Hence the 'weak-minded' comment - if it wasn't for people's irrational fear of their own mortality, you wouldn't have irrational belief in heaven, hell, and all the rest of it.

I don't agree with you at all on either front.

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

I have no problem with a person being religious, if that's what they want to go for, let them have at it, I say. But the problems arise when someone decides that some heathen would be SO much happier if only they had the same religion as them, and that's when religion ceases to be a mere crutch for people to prop their fears on, and becomes a destructive force that has caused untold misery for centuries.

If it's the truth, it's worth saying. Christianity isn't entirely about happiness though, it's about regarding the truth, accepting mercy and responding to it by faith in a world that often opposes it.

Your assessment isn't the most honest concerning Christianity however considering that Christianity has brought the world far more good than evil. Unfortunately people often focus on what bolsters their argument rather than the truth.

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

Arrogance is the sin.

As for speaking derisively about other Christian faiths, please give me an example of this? I personally disagree with certain denominational views, but this doesn't mean that I am "derisive".

The views you express are arrogant pretty much by definition you aren't going to agree with that. I am quite happy to stand in judgement of ones actions and as such I believe you to be arrogant. The only reason you would come on to such threads is to express your religious view and shout down other views. I can't really think of how that isn't arrogance.

Not a very Christ like way of doing things but you feel this is acceptable in your beliefs. You should be turning the other cheek :rolleyes:

Sam Vimes

Kipperhell wrote: »

Not a very Christ like way of doing things but you feel this is acceptable in your beliefs. You should be turning the other cheek :rolleyes:

Matthew 6:5: "When you pray, don't be like hypocrites. They like to stand in synagogues and on street corners to pray so that everyone can see them. I can guarantee this truth: That will be their only reward." But whenever you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your father who is hidden

Porkpie

In book shops shouldn't the Bible be in the fiction section?

smokingman

Getting back to the thread title...:D

Why no devil in the first testament?

Anyone?

Myrddin

God - G(o)od
Devil - (D)evil

See a pattern?
Horse poo lads.

Quint

One thing is sure, the devil would be a lot happier about the way the catholic church was run for the last 2000 years than Jesus would.

philologos

Kipperhell wrote: »

The views you express are arrogant pretty much by definition you aren't going to agree with that. I am quite happy to stand in judgement of ones actions and as such I believe you to be arrogant. The only reason you would come on to such threads is to express your religious view and shout down other views. I can't really think of how that isn't arrogance.

Not a very Christ like way of doing things but you feel this is acceptable in your beliefs. You should be turning the other cheek :rolleyes:

How are my views arrogant? I'm quite curious to see your logic here.

The reason I come onto these threads, is to challenge peoples misconceptions about the Christian faith, and to defend the Christian faith from invalid criticism. Generally that's how it works. I will leave you to your own theories however.

1 Peter 3:15-16 wrote:

Always be ready to make your defence to anyone who demands from you an account of the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and reverence. Keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are maligned those who abuse you for your good conduct in Christ may be put to shame.

Other people are entitled to put forward their view, and I look forward to discuss them God willing.

As for turning the other cheek, yes slander me as an individual as much as you wish. I will be defending Christianity here though.

Fink Goddie

Jakkass wrote: »

Christianity has been made up by man despite having nothing to indicate your position being the case?


God works through people in this very world.

As for heaven, I have a life to live right now, irrespective of heaven and hell, God is here in this world.

As for "thinking I'm not alone". It isn't so much that, it's more accepting what is real to me. God is a reality to me, accepting God is no different to me than accepting the sky is blue.


.

God answers the prayers that He feels are appropriate to answer for a given time, I would imagine. It is also the place of humans to be able to work for good in this world. After all we are called to be stewards and have dominion over what God has given us.

I view Him as being an inspiration and a power in this world.

1) The only proof we have is the bible which was written by uneducated men years and years ago. Very unreliable source in that regard.

2)God works through people, who, Ted Bundy, Fred West, Charles Manson?? Or was it that the devil who they were working through? But if god is as all powerful as you say, why would he let this happen???

3) God is here, where is he?? In the third world? In Iraq, afghanistan??

4) You can see the sky is blue so thats pretty easy to accept, there's proof in front of you. You're accepting God from hearsay, at least that the sky exists can be proved, Gods little house in the sky however has never been.

5) He chooses which prayers are appropriate, surely all children who are sick with horrible diseases prayers are appropriate no?? Bit of a sick god to answer one and not another isnt he.
If he's so powerful and mighty he could answer all them if he really wanted?

6) So we're the stewards in Gods big game of the SIMs, he lets us do whatever we want even though he could intervene. He sent down Jesus once for the laugh but never again.

humanji

I always feel sorry for the Devil. He gets such a bad rep just for standing up to a bully. Everything we're told about how evil he is comes from the Bible. How is that fair? Would you trust Hitler to tell you the best parts of the Jewish people? The whole thing is propaganda against the poor guy making him out to be evil, when the most evil charcter in the Bible is God himself. The guy deserves a break. And a hug.

Actually, I was watching the discover channel a while back when they were talking about the origins of the Devil. According to them, the ancient Jews believed in loads of Gods, and for time-saving reasons they cut that down to one. But they realised that this was getting awkward as they didn't want to worship one god for all the good things, but blame him for all the bad. As a result, the Devil was created so they could pick on him instead.

So I've decided that The Discovery Channel is my god now and I shall worship it accordingly. "And verily he did show How Things Work during the sacred Shark Week, and did shout to the people 'Myth Busted!'. Amen"

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

How are my views arrogant? I'm quite curious to see your logic here.

Well you think that anyone who doesn't accept your unsubstantiated old book as true is morality inferior and they're going to burn for eternity. Sounds pretty arrogant to me, especially as you have no proof of these claims

Quint

humanji wrote: »

I always feel sorry for the Devil. He gets such a bad rep just for standing up to a bully. Everything we're told about how evil he is comes from the Bible. How is that fair? Would you trust Hitler to tell you the best parts of the Jewish people? The whole thing is propaganda against the poor guy making him out to be evil, when the most evil charcter in the Bible is God himself. The guy deserves a break. And a hug.

Actually, I was watching the discover channel a while back when they were talking about the origins of the Devil. According to them, the ancient Jews believed in loads of Gods, and for time-saving reasons they cut that down to one. But they realised that this was getting awkward as they didn't want to worship one god for all the good things, but blame him for all the bad. As a result, the Devil was created so they could pick on him instead.

So I've decided that The Discovery Channel is my god now and I shall worship it accordingly. "And verily he did show How Things Work during the sacred Shark Week, and did shout to the people 'Myth Busted!'. Amen"

Possible the best post I've ever read on boards! I'm converted. Kari Byron is who I now worship. (In a sacred way, not in a pervo way)

humanji

Quint wrote: »

Possible the best post I've ever read on boards! I'm converted. Kari Byron is who I now worship. (In a sacred way, not in a pervo way)

I assume you already worshipped her in the pervo way. Otherwise, that would just be wierd!

Kipperhell

Jakkass wrote: »

How are my views arrogant? I'm quite curious to see your logic here.

The reason I come onto these threads, is to challenge peoples misconceptions about the Christian faith, and to defend the Christian faith from invalid criticism. Generally that's how it works. I will leave you to your own theories however.

As shown you believe to have superior morals than somebody who doesn't have religion. You defend religions against valid criticisms.

Jakkass wrote: »

Other people are entitled to put forward their view, and I look forward to discuss them God willing.

As for turning the other cheek, yes slander me as an individual as much as you wish. I will be defending Christianity here though.

There is a constant belittling or every statement such as believing my view is a theory yours is fact based faith and the use of terms like "god willing" which is such an obvious provocation. Very non-christian

No slander here just holding a mirror up on your hypocrisy as mentioned in your faith text. The way you view christianity is at odds of the christian faith I was thought and it would be equally arrogant to say that you are wrong. As you both can't be right and are both relying on the same text both are arrogant of believing themselves to be correct.

If all you expressed was opinion it would be fine but you express it as fact. In fact using the term god willing removes the personal freedom he is supposed to have given us.

bakkiesbotha

John 14:6: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jakkass wrote: »

Indeed, I believe in this, and I do believe that Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father. Other verses give cause to doubt on whether or not people who have never heard the Gospel will have a chance of salvation.

What?? But Jesus said the above. Other verses give cause to doubt Jesus??

philologos

Fink Goddie wrote: »

1) The only proof we have is the bible which was written by uneducated men years and years ago. Very unreliable source in that regard.

Unreliable by whose standards? In what respect?

The Bible isn't proof. It's a hypothesis. Nobody can absolutely prove or disprove God. However one can give reasons why God's existence is more probable than not. There's a field of Christian theology known as apologetics, which is a way we can argue as to how probable it is that God exists in the way that He does.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

2)God works through people, who, Ted Bundy, Fred West, Charles Manson?? Or was it that the devil who they were working through? But if god is as all powerful as you say, why would he let this happen???

God is a God that works through people. It's the way that God operates. He has a relationship with us and we choose in turn to respond to this relationship in the due hope that it will make this world a better place. In effect that is what Christianity is.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

3) God is here, where is he?? In the third world? In Iraq, afghanistan??

God isn't confined. It is said in the Bible that God doesn't reside in one particular place, therefore I would say that God is omnipresent as traditional explanations of God have depicted Him. So God is very much in Afghanistan, Iraq, and in the third world.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

4) You can see the sky is blue so thats pretty easy to accept, there's proof in front of you. You're accepting God from hearsay, at least that the sky exists can be proved, Gods little house in the sky however has never been.

I'm accepting God based on indication. See my first point and look up some Christian apologetics for yourself and you will eventually see what I am talking about.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

5) He chooses which prayers are appropriate, surely all children who are sick with horrible diseases prayers are appropriate no?? Bit of a sick god to answer one and not another isnt he.
If he's so powerful and mighty he could answer all them if he really wanted?

We can very easily decide that we are better than God, and that we could easily make a better world. I am left to think that this world serves a particular purpose, one that humans can barely discern in any meaningful way. I believe evil serves a purpose to develop character and to influence human relations. Evil often leads towards good.

I find it too simplistic to view everything in the way of blaming God when something bad happens to praising God when something good happens.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

6) So we're the stewards in Gods big game of the SIMs, he lets us do whatever we want even though he could intervene. He sent down Jesus once for the laugh but never again.

Sometimes we have to let people experience things for themselves without stepping in. I mean isn't there a point when a parent has to stop interfering in a childs life in order to help them grow and develop in their own experience? I would say the same is true for God in a lot of instances.

genericguy

Fink Goddie wrote: »

3) God is here, where is he??

i just ate god. sorry.

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

The Bible isn't proof. It's a hypothesis. Nobody can absolutely prove or disprove God.

Jakkass wrote: »

God is a reality to me, accepting God is no different to me than accepting the sky is blue.

My view that the sky is blue is not a hypothesis or an opinion, it's a reality and anyone who says otherwise is wrong. You might say that the bible is not proof but you believe it as if it was, which is where the arrogance bit comes in

TwoShedsJackson

The Bible isn't proof. It's a hypothesis. Nobody can absolutely prove or disprove God. However one can give reasons why God's existence is more probable than not.

It isn't a hypothesis, it's a collection of stories and parables. Perhaps you could list for us, say, the top three reasons why God's exsistence is more probable than not. Faith in his existence doesn't count as a reason.

God is a God that works through people. It's the way that God operates. He has a relationship with us and we choose in turn to respond to this relationship in the due hope that it will make this world a better place. In effect that is what Christianity is.

God is an excuse used by people to rationalise or justify their actions. How has Christianity made the world a better place exactly? What do you say about people who used Christianity as an excuse to start wars, massacre people, keep poor or uneducated people in poverty, with no access to contraception or precious little else that might help them set up their own life free from the Church's influence. Should we be surprised that the poorer or less well educated a person is, the more likely they are, in general, to be religious?

Fink Goddie

genericguy wrote: »

i just ate god. sorry.

Well they say god is everywhere so maybe somehow he managed to get onto your toast. easily done!:D

Smart Bug

Fink Goddie wrote: »

Well they say god is everywhere so maybe somehow he managed to get onto your toast. easily done!:D

like this ?

Fink Goddie

Jakkass wrote: »

Nobody can absolutely prove or disprove God.

This is the reason i havent become a nun, i mean what if i wake up dead one morning, finding out there is no God, then realising i wasted my time praying when i could have been partying and drinking vodka.
Wouldnt take that risk

TwoShedsJackson

Fink Goddie wrote: »

This is the reason i havent become a nun, i mean what if i wake up dead one morning, finding out there is no God, then realising i wasted my time praying when i could have been partying and drinking vodka.
Wouldnt take that risk

But think of the glowing sense of moral superiority you could have if you became a nun and there is a heaven Truly, the self-righteousness could light up the world

Fink Goddie

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

But think of the glowing sense of moral superiority you could have if you became a nun and there is a heaven Truly, the self-righteousness could light up the world

Nah pretty sure i'd still have been p1ssed i didnt just drink vodka and party, BLUE NUN whoop whoop!

Quint

TwoShedsJackson wrote: »

But think of the glowing sense of moral superiority you could have if you became a nun and there is a heaven Truly, the self-righteousness could light up the world

But the vodka drinking nun could just ask god for forgiveness, then get in. Best of both worlds!
Actually, what happens in heaven? Eternal life could actually be hell.

JONJO THE MISER

Take a look at these pictures from the world trade centre http://images.google.ie/imgres?imgurl=http://www.planetperplex.com/img/wtc_devil_smoke.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.planetperplex.com/en/item270&usg=__9tjnu1NhSrLKVeMpHNNOMnBz5z4=&h=500&w=400&sz=31&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=eJIBN78BTK-LCM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=104&prev=/images%3Fq%3Ddevil%2Bin%2Bworld%2Btrade%2Bcenter%2Bsmoke%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rlz%3D1R2RNTN_enIE338%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1

http://www.nzghosts.co.nz/images/wtfisthat.jpg
http://www.crushersmcny.com/images/9-11%20page%20photos/9-11%20Nov%2026/devil_face_in_WTC_smoke%20(1).jpg

Fink Goddie

Quint wrote: »

But the vodka drinking nun could just ask god for forgiveness, then get in. Best of both worlds!
Actually, what happens in heaven? Eternal life could actually be hell.

I like your thinking batman!

Quint

Here's proof gods ma exists

Fink Goddie

Quint wrote: »

Here's proof gods ma exists

She's obviously barking mad