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The "memorisation / regurgitation vs. understanding / thinking" debate revisited!

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24

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    #32
    MmmmmCheese
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭MmmmmCheese


    RandomIrl wrote: »
    lets say we applied this to another subject...
    English, teacher gives you sample essay ...says its very good A1 standard...you learn off by heart thinking yes...sorted...100 marks in the bag.
    so do the 30 other people in your class...not only is this plagiarism...
    examiners are looking for something different something, something thought provoking, not the same old essay that has been reemed off by 30 students, with a good memory, its creative writing, not a memory section.

    But geography is different to english. You couldnt get away with learning off essays in english, its a different thing altogether.


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    #33
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    leesmom wrote: »
    when you learn off notes that 16 percent of irish manufacturing industry is located in dublin , how the **** is that not understanding it????:confused:
    didnt mean to quote you there ;-)

    the problem lies when your point is say number 5 of your SRP's...
    its also number five of exam no.12222, 12223, 12224 and 12225's script, following identical points at number 1-4 and 6-12....


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    #34
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    RandomIrl wrote: »
    lets say we applied this to another subject...
    English, teacher gives you sample essay ...says its very good A1 standard...you learn off by heart thinking yes...sorted...100 marks in the bag.
    so do the 30 other people in your class...not only is this plagiarism...
    examiners are looking for something different something, something thought provoking, not the same old essay that has been reemed off by 30 students, with a good memory, its creative writing, not a memory section.
    english is totally different, there is no set facts for you to learn.
    geography is based on facts, english as you said is creative writing and you are awarded for that as everyone knows. but at the same time if you dont remember quotes from your play or your poetry your answer wont end up very good


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    #35
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    MmmmmCheese wrote: »
    But geography is different to english. You couldnt get away with learning off essays in english, its a different thing altogether.
    snap!:pac:


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    #36
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    leesmom wrote: »
    when you learn off notes that 16 percent of irish manufacturing industry is located in dublin , how the **** is that not understanding it????:confused:
    That's not really what we're on about, leesmom. :)


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    #37
    Dante
    Registered Users Posts: 1,566 ✭✭✭Dante


    I literally learned off all my answers for every subject in like 3 weeks and got 445 points which is unbelievable for me! Although I can't believe how lucky I was in every subject, literally everything I learnt off came up in some shape or form!


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    #38
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    the same applies to a lot of other subjects, students will be punished if an examiner gets a batch of 20 scripts with rote learned answers.....not even mentioning the fact that its very easy that they could be held up for cheating!


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    #39
    MmmmmCheese
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭MmmmmCheese


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    They may do, especially if they first prepared those essays themselves.

    And it would take even more time and effort for, say, someone Chinese who didn't speak a word of English to learn to reproduce them in a LC exam.

    But supposing they succeeded in doing so, should they therefore get even higher marks?

    Because after all they put in even more time and effort?

    Even if they didn't understand a sinle word they were writing, let alone the ideas and concepts involved ... sure what harm, like, give them an A1 in Geography anyway, sure look at all the work they put in to be able to do that!

    .......Does it really matter how someone learns off information? At the end of it all people are after a good grade, how they arrived at that grade shouldnt be an issue. The leaving cert is sometimes just a test of memory. Thats not a good thing, but thats the way it is.


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    #40
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    There's a difference between remembering facts, Steve, and simply regurgitating an essay provided for you by a grind school.

    I never studied Geography after Junior, but I bet I could get an A1 with a months preparation if that's all that is required.

    How is that fair on the people who have actually studied, and know and understand the material?


    Then they shouldn't. Pure and simple.

    :p:D

    Seriously, JSK, if that is acceptable then it makes a mockery of the whole exam system.
    i knew and understood what i was writing , i didnt get full marks


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    #41
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    MmmmmCheese wrote: »
    The leaving cert is sometimes just a test of memory. Thats not a good thing, but thats the way it is.
    And on THAT bit, I will agree with you wholeheartedly!!

    The difficulty in these discussions is always when it turns to the "sciencey" subjects loosely defined to include geography in this case ... where there is a lot of facts and figures to learn off and know anyway, as leesmom for example pointed out, so it's always difficult to define where exactly the line is.
    leesmom wrote: »
    i knew and understood what i was writing , i didnt get full marks
    And the horrible thing is that you may have deserved them more than some others who crammed a whole load of readymade answers into their heads, and just wrote them out on the day ...


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    #42
    GallowsGhost
    Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭GallowsGhost


    leesmom wrote: »
    why does this have to be turned into a thread about people who go to fee paying schools and pay for their notes, it is not just there that people are given out these answers by their teachers
    I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

    The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:


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    #43
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    maybe the dept should have a set of guidelines as to whats acceptable in each subjectand what is not. if i wrote the same answer for biology or did a maths question the same as others in my centre would i be penalised?? probably not


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    #44
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    GallowsGhost wrote: »
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by leesmom
    why does this have to be turned into a thread about people who go to fee paying schools and pay for their notes, it is not just there that people are given out these answers by their teachers


    I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

    The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful
    __________________:


    its been said a few times, that it happens every where, where ever it happens its not exactly great in any case


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    #45
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    Maths is a straight forward subject, there can be no great variation, variation in methods, usually leads to a wrong answer.


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    #46
    MmmmmCheese
    Registered Users Posts: 357 ✭✭MmmmmCheese


    GallowsGhost wrote: »
    I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

    The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:


    I agree, our education system is a joke. So i don't see the problem in memorising large amounts of information, when that is sometimes required to get good grades. Anyway everyone has their own way of learning.


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    #47
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    GallowsGhost wrote: »
    I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

    The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:
    i do agree with you on that, tbh i would have preffered to have been thought the proper way, it would have cut down on the horrible lenghty hours of rote(sp?) learning, and actually recieving an education which would benifit me in college.
    i just feel with the way the system is i shouldnt have had marks taken off me beacuse it was the same as someone elses answer, its not like i copyed


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    #48
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    leesmom wrote: »
    ........, its not like i copyed
    not directly you didnt no, but.......

    Edit, im not attacking you personally leesmom, honestly, i think your great having read all your posts.its the rote learning system...that just creates a vicious circle.


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    #49
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    if i take a step back and think about it, i would feel hard done by if i had researched all that stuff and written my own essays only to have other people being handed the material to learn and getting the full marks.
    however, im not so sure 6 subjects(or more) in a year with so much to get through would give somebody adequate time to do all of that work themselves


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    #50
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    6-8 subjects in two years is fairly manageable.
    6-8 subjects in two(+) years (repeating) is definitely manageable.

    after all the research is mainly done for you with added information in the form of text books


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    #51
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    ok well for special cases like me who was out of school for 3 years:D


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    #52
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    right lets not make this personal, lol.
    im still all for the researching your own answers....
    But, there is no problem using the Spoon fed 30 mark questions teachers (in grinds schools or normal schools) as points of reference.
    its not likely, but imagine the teacher gave you the wrong information, and you just regurgitated it, not realising it was wrong, wouldnt you feel a bit stupid that you hadnt researched it a bit yourself too and noticed.


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    #53
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    RandomIrl wrote: »
    right lets not make this personal, lol.
    im still all for the researching your own answers....
    But, there is no problem using the Spoon fed 30 mark questions teachers (in grinds schools or normal schools) as points of reference.
    its not likely, but imagine the teacher gave you the wrong information, and you just regurgitated it, not realising it was wrong, wouldnt you feel a bit stupid that you hadnt researched it a bit yourself too and noticed.
    yep i would:p buuttt....how are you supposed to know any different when you are told to do it by an AMAZING teacher:D:pac:


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    #54
    pjtb
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭pjtb


    randylonghorn wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight ... you're arguing that if (say) 20 students get the same basic essay from a grind school, learn it off, and regurgitate it verbatim at the exam, they should all be given full marks? Even though there is no evidence in that case that they even understand what they're writing? All they are actually demonstrating is that they can take an essay someone has given them, learn it off and write it out again!

    I'm not arguing that, I personally don't believe they should be given full marks at all. All I was saying in my original post was that Geography is marked according to relevant points, and coherence, the way these points are tied together. I don't support this way of marking, I'm just stating the way it works according to the marking scheme, and pointing out that the marking scheme does not allocate marks for originality/ ingenuity or anything like that. It has been pointed out that Geography and English are not comparable, I and agree with this. If you did the same thing in English you'd be crucified by the examiner.

    Geography, becuase of the way questions are usually phrased the same year in, year out, lends itself to regurgitation of answers. To fix this, both the questions asked, and the way they are marked, would have to be changed. But the current style of testing and marking, at present, awards a candidate who learns of their points, and presents them in a coherent manner. Whether their answers are created on the day of the exam from drawing the knowledge together in their heads, or they are basically spat out on the page word for word from another essay, students are entitled to the marks. This might not be the best way of examining a student's learning, but for now, that is simply the way it is.


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    #55
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    leesmom wrote: »
    yep i would:p buuttt....how are you supposed to know any different when you are told to do it by an AMAZING teacher:D:pac:

    if HE (institute i'm guessing yes?? :P) told you to jump of a bridge would you?


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    #56
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    RandomIrl wrote: »
    if HE (institute i'm guessing yes?? :P) told you to jump of a bridge would you?
    thats so weird:pac: i was actually going to add that into my post:pac::eek:


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    #57
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    i give up, you win:p


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    #58
    randylonghorn
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 29,509 Mod ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    pjtb wrote: »
    I'm not arguing that all, I personally don't believe they should be given full marks at all. All I was saying in my original post was that Geography is marked according to relevant points
    Fair enough ...
    and coherence, the way these points are tied together.
    ... but this is meant to be marks for coherence on the part of the candidate i.e. that the candidate can tie these points together because s/he understands them.

    If it becomes obvious to the examiner that it is someone else entirely (i.e. a teacher / tutor) who has pre-prepared the answer, and "pre-cohered" (excuse the murder of the English language! :D) the answers for the candidate, should these marks be awarded?
    To fix this, both the questions asked, and the way they are marked, would have to be changed.
    I am not familiar with the geography syllabus or exam, but from the discussion here, you're probably right.


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    #59
    RandomIrl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 234 ✭✭RandomIrl


    leesmom wrote: »
    thats so weird:pac: i was actually going to add that into my post:pac::eek:

    touche!
    but seriously its not good to be sending 50,000 students plus,into the world of 3rd level education with the thought that rote learning and plagiarism is going to get them through life!


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    #60
    leesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 744 ✭✭✭leesmom


    leesmom wrote: »
    i give up, you win:p
    and yes you are right, looks like i have a tough road ahead,
    having said that im doing something that actually interests me not something i have to do to get points


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    #61
    ALincoln
    Closed Accounts Posts: 222 ✭✭ALincoln


    Look, I didn't even bother to read this thread, principally because it is just not worthy of discussion.

    There is a simple answer to your question: the secondary education system is clearly embracing the independent thought approach. This is a good thing, it will prevent you from failing when you go to college (if you managed to get into college).

    To answer your implicit question, in a broader sense, this is a good thing. Critical thinking is what separates the regurgitating masses from their A1 peers.

    There is really no debate to be had here.


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