The "memorisation / regurgitation vs. understanding / thinking" debate revisited!

leesmom

spurious wrote: »

The examiners probably spotted it as learned off.

does that actually matter for geography though


Thread split from Rechecks thread

spurious

leesmom wrote: »

does that actually matter for geography though

Anecdotally, learned off answers seem to have been punished this year. Whether it's a policy, or examiners just getting fed up of seeing the same stuff year after year, I don't know.

If it's a policy, I suspect it will be reflected in questions that will have some sort of twist in them that require an application of knowledge rather than regurgitation of notes. We'll see over the next few exams.

pjtb

leesmom wrote: »

does that actually matter for geography though

I don't think it should really. Geography is meant to be marked fairly scientifically, ie 2 marks for each Significant Relevant Point in an answer. In the Option Question ( the Essay), there are also marks going for overall coherence, 4/6/7 marks per paragraph (depending on how many paragraphs you write 3, or 4). Perhaps they can dock marks in the coherence markings for regurgitating an essay, but I'm not privy to the internal workings of the marking of Geography, so I can only go by the published marking schemes. But coherence marks are meant to be awarded if your answer follows a logical order, and your significant relevant points (srps) are well knitted together. So going by that logic you'd think that whether the essay is identical to another's, or not, if it is coherent, you shouldn't lose those marks. If examiners are docking marks even if you have the relevant information and structure, just because you have an essay learned off, it wouldn't appear to be very fair to me. However, maybe the essays obtained from grinds aren't actually good as they're made out to be, and this is the cause. I don't know because I've never seen them.

Stev_o

spurious wrote: »

The examiners probably spotted it as learned off.

As apposed to award marks for people making stuff up? Thing's are fupped up when your punished for remember facts.

randylonghorn

pjtb wrote: »

But coherence marks are meant to be awarded if your answer follows a logical order, and your significant relevant points (srps) are well knitted together. So going by that logic you'd think that whether the essay is identical to another's, or not, if it is coherent, you shouldn't lose those marks. If examiners are docking marks even if you have the relevant information and structure, just because you have an essay learned off, it wouldn't appear to be very fair to me. However, maybe the essays obtained from grinds aren't actually good as they're made out to be, and this is the cause. I don't know because I've never seen them.

So, let me get this straight ... you're arguing that if (say) 20 students get the same basic essay from a grind school, learn it off, and regurgitate it verbatim at the exam, they should all be given full marks? Even though there is no evidence in that case that they even understand what they're writing? All they are actually demonstrating is that they can take an essay someone has given them, learn it off and write it out again!

JSK 252

randylonghorn wrote: »

So, let me get this straight ... you're arguing that if (say) 20 students get the same basic essay from a grind school, learn it off, and regurgitate it verbatim at the exam, they should all be given full marks? Even though there is no evidence in that case that they even understand what they're writing? All they are actually demonstrating is that they can take an essay someone has given them, learn it off and write it out again!

However if the facts are there they have to get the marks. Pure and simple.

randylonghorn

Stev_o wrote: »

As apposed to award marks for people making stuff up? Thing's are fupped up when your punished for remember facts.

There's a difference between remembering facts, Steve, and simply regurgitating an essay provided for you by a grind school.

I never studied Geography after Junior, but I bet I could get an A1 with a months preparation if that's all that is required.

How is that fair on the people who have actually studied, and know and understand the material?

JSK 252 wrote: »

However if the facts are there they have to get the marks. Pure and simple.

Then they shouldn't. Pure and simple.



Seriously, JSK, if that is acceptable then it makes a mockery of the whole exam system.

RandomIrl

the regurgitation of notes argument, again...
i believe that if grinds notes are SPOON FED to those who can afford them, leaving them with no need for thinking or knowing anything... (all one needs is the ability to rote learn) puts others at a disadvantage, they have to spend longer searching for SRPs, making a logical answer them selves....disadvantage it may be..but it puts these disadvantaged students at a better position to deal with things in later life...

re-checks, i actually didnt even bother looking, could of maybe gone up in subjects that ive always gotten As in and received B1s in the LC, but i got my course, with points to spare, why keep raking over something..

randylonghorn

RandomIrl wrote: »

the regurgitation of notes argument, again...
i believe that if grinds notes are SPOON FED to those who can afford them, leaving them with no need for thinking or knowing anything... (all one needs is the ability to rote learn) puts others at a disadvantage, they have to spend longer searching for SRPs, making a logical answer them selves....disadvantage it may be..but it puts these disadvantaged students at a better position to deal with things in later life...

I agree with that, actually. It certainly puts them in a better position to deal with third level.

I still don't think though that those who regurgitate what is basically other peoples work at an exam are entitled to full marks though!

RandomIrl

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree with that, actually.

you seem surprised!
i joke, i joke

celtic723

randylonghorn wrote: »

I agree with that, actually. It certainly puts them in a better position to deal with third level.

I still don't think though that those who regurgitate what is basically other peoples work at an exam are entitled to full marks though!

why because the ethics of it are wrong? Don't make me laugh. I have no problems with anyone that regurgitates information without knowing what they are talking about.

The L.C is flawed and it's up to the students to capitalise.

RandomIrl

celtic723 wrote: »

I have no problems with anyone that regurgitates information without knowing what they are talking about.

so you'd like to have a conversation with someone who practically reads all their answers out of a book? adding nothing new or intriguing themselves?

JSK 252

Everybody's trying to beat the system so I dont see where the problem lies.

randylonghorn

RandomIrl wrote: »

you seem surprised!

Sorry, I didn't mean to give that impression! :P

celtic723 wrote: »

why because the ethics of it are wrong? Don't make me laugh. I have no problems with anyone that regurgitates information without knowing what they are talking about.

The L.C is flawed and it's up to the students to capitalise.

Oh, I don't actually blame the students, and I agree with you re the LC.

I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy though for people who go "But ... I paid through the nose for grinds, and I learned off all my essays, and wrote them out perfectly, but the horrible examiners actually noticed that a whole load of us were giving them up the same essay, and they didn't give me full marks!! :mad:"

EDIT: Oh dear, we seem to be quite off topic ... my fault as much as anyone's!!


/splits thread

RandomIrl

randylonghorn wrote: »

I'm not going to have a lot of sympathy though for people who go "But ... I paid through the nose for grinds, and I learned off all my essays, and wrote them out perfectly, but the horrible examiners actually noticed that a whole load of us were giving them up the same essay, and they didn't give me full marks!! :mad:"

one word........ Plagiarism

wont get away with it in college, why should you for LC

randylonghorn

Exactly ... and I suspect one of the reasons why colleges are complaining of such a growth in plagiarism these days (and tracking it down and penalising students) is because people are being sold the idea at a younger age that it's ok to be handed something readymade, go and learn it off, and basically pass it off as their own.

spurious

'The system' seems to have finally copped on to it, so things are likely to change.

RandomIrl

People in these grinds schools (EVEN THOUGH, i must say, its not only grinds schools are guilty of this practice)are being told to learn the answers off to be guaranteed full marks! its ridiculous paying thousands of euro to be told to do this!!
you can learn out of a book just the same..but by putting a bit of thought and cop on into noticing what is relevant and what isnt, you will be getting your moneys worth.

GallowsGhost

Learning off essays from a grinds teacher is similar to cheating in my opinion.
I went through different text books, revision books and searched the internet to find all of my SRPs, then I rewrote them in my own words and then learned them off and it gets on my nerves how some people can people just skip half the work and pay for their notes.

Still, like cheating it will come back and bite them in the nether regions eventually.

RandomIrl

GallowsGhost wrote: »

Learning off essays from a grinds teacher is similar to cheating in my opinion.
I went through different text books, revision books and searched the internet to find all of my SRPs, then I rewrote them in my own words and then learned them off and it gets on my nerves how some people can people just skip half the work and pay for their notes.

Still, like cheating it will come back and bite them in the nether regions eventually.

THANK YOU! work for the points, thats the point dont have them handed to you on a plate!!

MmmmmCheese

randylonghorn wrote: »

So, let me get this straight ... you're arguing that if (say) 20 students get the same basic essay from a grind school, learn it off, and regurgitate it verbatim at the exam, they should all be given full marks? Even though there is no evidence in that case that they even understand what they're writing? All they are actually demonstrating is that they can take an essay someone has given them, learn it off and write it out again!

Who says that just because someone learns off essays for geography that they don't understand what they are writing?
I studied geography by learning off essays and i understand every single thing I'm writing and would consider myself to have a good grasp on the subject. I got a B1 and it was the the field work project where i lost marks as i was in hospital in the week leading up to the deadline and had to do a rush job on finishing it. ( Not tryin to make excuses for myself but thats what happened!) So anyway as i was saying, my method of learning worked and I don't give a flying frigg if it was unethical or whatever!

leesmom

RandomIrl wrote: »

People in these grinds schools (EVEN THOUGH, i must say, its not only grinds schools are guilty of this practice)are being told to learn the answers off to be guaranteed full marks! its ridiculous paying thousands of euro to be told to do this!!
you can learn out of a book just the same..but by putting a bit of thought and cop on into noticing what is relevant and what isnt, you will be getting your moneys worth.

its not only grind schools that do this as you said ,ive had a teacher in another school do the exact same...
however my teacher did not use a book, gave us notes told us to learn them and we would be sorted. i did that and it didnt get me very far:o
just because alot of people have the same answers as eachother does not mean they should be penalised, they spend hours learning these answers and alot of hard work goes into it,when you are advised to do this by your teacher i dont really see how you are in the wrong ..........and plus the leaving cert is just a memory test, thats the way the dept have it,until they decide to change the way they assess peoples intelligence and ability to get into college they shouldnt penalise people for hours of learning off answers that contains more than enough information to be given full marks in accordance with the marking scheme.

RandomIrl

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Who says that just because someone learns off essays for geography that they don't understand what they are writing?

no one, its the learning of essays that are handed to you...by teachers etc without putting an ounce of your own thought into them that people have a problem with. you learn essays you have researched and created yourself, not a bother, but if you have learnt something 200 other students have learnt too...do you deserve the grade you got?.....Morally (teehee)

leesmom

GallowsGhost wrote: »

Learning off essays from a grinds teacher is similar to cheating in my opinion.
I went through different text books, revision books and searched the internet to find all of my SRPs, then I rewrote them in my own words and then learned them off and it gets on my nerves how some people can people just skip half the work and pay for their notes.

Still, like cheating it will come back and bite them in the nether regions eventually.

why does this have to be turned into a thread about people who go to fee paying schools and pay for their notes, it is not just there that people are given out these answers by their teachers

MmmmmCheese

leesmom wrote: »

its not only grind schools that do this as you said ,ive had a teacher in another school do the exact same...
however my teacher did not use a book, gave us notes told us to learn them and we would be sorted. i did that and it didnt get me very far:o
just because alot of people have the same answers as eachother does not mean they should be penalised, they spend hours learning these answers and alot of hard work goes into it,when you are advised to do this by your teacher i dont really see how you are in the wrong ..........and plus the leaving cert is just a memory test, thats the way the dept have it,until they decide to change the way they assess peoples intelligence and ability to get into college they shouldnt penalise people for hours of learning off answers that contains more than enough information to be given full marks in accordance with the marking scheme.

Exactly i mean learning all those essays off by heart takes a a lot of time and effort. I don't see why you should be penalised if you have all the necessary information

leesmom

leesmom wrote: »

its not only grind schools that do this as you said ,ive had a teacher in another school do the exact same...
however my teacher did not use a book, gave us notes told us to learn them and we would be sorted. i did that and it didnt get me very far:o
just because alot of people have the same answers as eachother does not mean they should be penalised, they spend hours learning these answers and alot of hard work goes into it,when you are advised to do this by your teacher i dont really see how you are in the wrong ..........and plus the leaving cert is just a memory test, thats the way the dept have it,until they decide to change the way they assess peoples intelligence and ability to get into college they shouldnt penalise people for hours of learning off answers that contains more than enough information to be given full marks in accordance with the marking scheme.

my lack of punctuation is terrible (probably because i didnt learn what i said off a fee paying schools,teachers notes):eek:

MmmmmCheese

RandomIrl wrote: »

no one, its the learning of essays that are handed to you...by teachers etc without putting an ounce of your own thought into them that people have a problem with. you learn essays you have researched and created yourself, not a bother, but if you have learnt something 200 other students have learnt too...do you deserve the grade you got?.....Morally (teehee)

I don't see why you shouldnt. Quite simply if you have all the points required it shouldnt matter how you learned them.

Oh and its not all grinds teachers and grind schools who hand out essays for students to learn off. I went to a 'normal' school and my teacher did this.

RandomIrl

leesmom wrote: »

just because alot of people have the same answers as eachother does not mean they should be penalised, they spend hours learning these answers and alot of hard work goes into it,when you are advised to do this by your teacher i dont really see how you are in the wrong ..........and plus the leaving cert is just a memory test, thats the way the dept have it,until they decide to change the way they assess peoples intelligence and ability to get into college they shouldnt penalise people for hours of learning off answers that contains more than enough information to be given full marks in accordance with the marking scheme.

lets say we applied this to another subject...
English, teacher gives you sample essay ...says its very good A1 standard...you learn off by heart thinking yes...sorted...100 marks in the bag.
so do the 30 other people in your class...not only is this plagiarism...
examiners are looking for something different something, something thought provoking, not the same old essay that has been reemed off by 30 students, with a good memory, its creative writing, not a memory section.

leesmom

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Exactly i mean learning all those essays off by heart takes a a lot of time and effort. I don't see why you should be penalised if you have all the necessary information

when you learn off notes that 16 percent of irish manufacturing industry is located in dublin , how the **** is that not understanding it????
didnt mean to quote you there ;-)

RandomIrl

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Oh and its not all grinds teachers and grind schools who hand out essays for students to learn off. I went to a 'normal' school and my teacher did this.

completely aware of this... teachers in my 'normal' school did the same.... but also added with a pinch of salt that the essays should also only be used as a point of reference and as a guide, advising us not no just regurgitate their answers.

randylonghorn

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Who says that just because someone learns off essays for geography that they don't understand what they are writing?

They may do, especially if they first prepared those essays themselves.

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

Exactly i mean learning all those essays off by heart takes a a lot of time and effort. I don't see why you should be penalised if you have all the necessary information

And it would take even more time and effort for, say, someone Chinese who didn't speak a word of English to learn to reproduce them in a LC exam.

But supposing they succeeded in doing so, should they therefore get even higher marks?

Because after all they put in even more time and effort?

Even if they didn't understand a sinle word they were writing, let alone the ideas and concepts involved ... sure what harm, like, give them an A1 in Geography anyway, sure look at all the work they put in to be able to do that!

MmmmmCheese

RandomIrl wrote: »

lets say we applied this to another subject...
English, teacher gives you sample essay ...says its very good A1 standard...you learn off by heart thinking yes...sorted...100 marks in the bag.
so do the 30 other people in your class...not only is this plagiarism...
examiners are looking for something different something, something thought provoking, not the same old essay that has been reemed off by 30 students, with a good memory, its creative writing, not a memory section.

But geography is different to english. You couldnt get away with learning off essays in english, its a different thing altogether.

RandomIrl

leesmom wrote: »

when you learn off notes that 16 percent of irish manufacturing industry is located in dublin , how the **** is that not understanding it????
didnt mean to quote you there ;-)

the problem lies when your point is say number 5 of your SRP's...
its also number five of exam no.12222, 12223, 12224 and 12225's script, following identical points at number 1-4 and 6-12....

leesmom

RandomIrl wrote: »

lets say we applied this to another subject...
English, teacher gives you sample essay ...says its very good A1 standard...you learn off by heart thinking yes...sorted...100 marks in the bag.
so do the 30 other people in your class...not only is this plagiarism...
examiners are looking for something different something, something thought provoking, not the same old essay that has been reemed off by 30 students, with a good memory, its creative writing, not a memory section.

english is totally different, there is no set facts for you to learn.
geography is based on facts, english as you said is creative writing and you are awarded for that as everyone knows. but at the same time if you dont remember quotes from your play or your poetry your answer wont end up very good

leesmom

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

But geography is different to english. You couldnt get away with learning off essays in english, its a different thing altogether.

snap!:pac:

randylonghorn

leesmom wrote: »

when you learn off notes that 16 percent of irish manufacturing industry is located in dublin , how the **** is that not understanding it????

That's not really what we're on about, leesmom.

Dante

I literally learned off all my answers for every subject in like 3 weeks and got 445 points which is unbelievable for me! Although I can't believe how lucky I was in every subject, literally everything I learnt off came up in some shape or form!

RandomIrl

the same applies to a lot of other subjects, students will be punished if an examiner gets a batch of 20 scripts with rote learned answers.....not even mentioning the fact that its very easy that they could be held up for cheating!

MmmmmCheese

randylonghorn wrote: »

They may do, especially if they first prepared those essays themselves.

And it would take even more time and effort for, say, someone Chinese who didn't speak a word of English to learn to reproduce them in a LC exam.

But supposing they succeeded in doing so, should they therefore get even higher marks?

Because after all they put in even more time and effort?

Even if they didn't understand a sinle word they were writing, let alone the ideas and concepts involved ... sure what harm, like, give them an A1 in Geography anyway, sure look at all the work they put in to be able to do that!

.......Does it really matter how someone learns off information? At the end of it all people are after a good grade, how they arrived at that grade shouldnt be an issue. The leaving cert is sometimes just a test of memory. Thats not a good thing, but thats the way it is.

leesmom

randylonghorn wrote: »

There's a difference between remembering facts, Steve, and simply regurgitating an essay provided for you by a grind school.

I never studied Geography after Junior, but I bet I could get an A1 with a months preparation if that's all that is required.

How is that fair on the people who have actually studied, and know and understand the material?


Then they shouldn't. Pure and simple.



Seriously, JSK, if that is acceptable then it makes a mockery of the whole exam system.

i knew and understood what i was writing , i didnt get full marks

randylonghorn

MmmmmCheese wrote: »

The leaving cert is sometimes just a test of memory. Thats not a good thing, but thats the way it is.

And on THAT bit, I will agree with you wholeheartedly!!

The difficulty in these discussions is always when it turns to the "sciencey" subjects loosely defined to include geography in this case ... where there is a lot of facts and figures to learn off and know anyway, as leesmom for example pointed out, so it's always difficult to define where exactly the line is.

leesmom wrote: »

i knew and understood what i was writing , i didnt get full marks

And the horrible thing is that you may have deserved them more than some others who crammed a whole load of readymade answers into their heads, and just wrote them out on the day ...

GallowsGhost

leesmom wrote: »

why does this have to be turned into a thread about people who go to fee paying schools and pay for their notes, it is not just there that people are given out these answers by their teachers

I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:

leesmom

maybe the dept should have a set of guidelines as to whats acceptable in each subjectand what is not. if i wrote the same answer for biology or did a maths question the same as others in my centre would i be penalised?? probably not

RandomIrl

GallowsGhost wrote: »

Quote:
Originally Posted by leesmom
why does this have to be turned into a thread about people who go to fee paying schools and pay for their notes, it is not just there that people are given out these answers by their teachers


I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful
__________________:

its been said a few times, that it happens every where, where ever it happens its not exactly great in any case

RandomIrl

Maths is a straight forward subject, there can be no great variation, variation in methods, usually leads to a wrong answer.

MmmmmCheese

GallowsGhost wrote: »

I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:

I agree, our education system is a joke. So i don't see the problem in memorising large amounts of information, when that is sometimes required to get good grades. Anyway everyone has their own way of learning.

leesmom

GallowsGhost wrote: »

I'm talking about people who take short cuts in general, the grinds thing was just an example.

The fact that this happens in "normal" schools is no justification. All this shows is what a poor state our education system is in; teachers aren't even teaching they're just spoon feeding answers to memorise! Well that's just wonderful :rolleyes:

i do agree with you on that, tbh i would have preffered to have been thought the proper way, it would have cut down on the horrible lenghty hours of rote(sp?) learning, and actually recieving an education which would benifit me in college.
i just feel with the way the system is i shouldnt have had marks taken off me beacuse it was the same as someone elses answer, its not like i copyed

RandomIrl

leesmom wrote: »

........, its not like i copyed

not directly you didnt no, but.......

Edit, im not attacking you personally leesmom, honestly, i think your great having read all your posts.its the rote learning system...that just creates a vicious circle.

leesmom

if i take a step back and think about it, i would feel hard done by if i had researched all that stuff and written my own essays only to have other people being handed the material to learn and getting the full marks.
however, im not so sure 6 subjects(or more) in a year with so much to get through would give somebody adequate time to do all of that work themselves

RandomIrl

6-8 subjects in two years is fairly manageable.
6-8 subjects in two(+) years (repeating) is definitely manageable.

after all the research is mainly done for you with added information in the form of text books

leesmom

ok well for special cases like me who was out of school for 3 years:D