Vinters Assocation moaning.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Almost 10,000 bar jobs will be lost by next year unless action is taken to save the traditional country pub, industry chiefs warned today.

The Vintners Federation of Ireland said 1,700 watering holes have shut their doors in the last five years with just less than 5,000 jobs axed in the last 12 months alone.

The body demanded the Government slash VAT and local authority charges to help boost the beleaguered sector.

It also claimed banks were not giving credit to small businesses and called for a special watchdog to monitor their lending habits.

Val Hanley, VFI President, said: “We’re under pressure.

“Jobs are being lost, pubs are being closed, the rural fabric of rural Ireland is closing down.

“They’ll be no social outlet if we don’t take something in hand.”

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-of-bar-workers-facing-unemployment-warn-vintners-423880.html


Ok, while I'd welcome a cut in VAT rates to strimulate the economy (wouldn't we all?), but why the hell can't publicans come up with some ideas or initiatives of their own to bring back customers?

When I was living in Ireland, I got bored of the routine pub culture and the similarity of a lot of the bars I went to. Every one of them seemed to think all they had to do was get a licence and a few barrels in and people would be coming to the bar in droves! Come on lads - businesses go under all the time, but it's the ones that innovate that survive.

As for the "no social outlet line" - this strikes me as arrogant: people who don't go to pubs still have prefectly acceptable social lives. And if the ones in more isolatred areas don't, maybe their areas need more variety...

Or am I being too harsh?

Gentlemen and gentle ladies, the floor is yours.

My name is URL

The Vintners are always moaning, the industry would be better off without them

Red_Marauder

Having spent a large part of my life in the countryside, it always strikes me how often rural pubs are family-run enterprises. Given the fact that this should lower labour costs, and given that so many rural pubs are pretty small in size and thus don't have huge energy costs associated with running them, why do I still pay almost the exact same for alcohol in rural Tipperary as I do on Baggott Street or in Ranelagh?

Neamhshuntasach

If they lower the price of drink i may go back to going out at 8pm instead of the 11pm or so i would go out at now.

mikom

“They’ll be no social outlet if we don’t take something in hand.”

They're forgetting about the dole office.

Mimikyu

This post has been deleted.

mickos

If publicans would just put some life back into their pubs they might get some customers back. I'm fond of a pint and always have been but find pubs these days to be more often than not soleless, overpriced holes with greedy landlords who look down on their customers more often than not.
There is very little variation in them. Go to any town on a Sunday and see how many pubs are showing either the same GAA or Premiership match. None of them seem to be able to come up with anything different. I remember back in the day, pubs would put on a band from 5 til 7 on a Sunday or something like that. Used to draw a right crowd and good craic for the day. Why aren't they tryin something like this to get customers back?
Actually I've come up with the solution:)

1. Bring back live music
2. €3 a pint all day everyday
3. Smille ffs:P

Fracture

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/thousands-of-bar-workers-facing-unemployment-warn-vintners-423880.html


why the hell can't publicans come up with some ideas or initiatives of their own to bring back customers?

You try coming up with an idea that will bring customers into your bar.

Maybe try getting a good band in? Its usually too expensive
Cheaper pints? If you make it alot cheatper than the pubs around you, your gonna get all the scum bags of the day in.
Karakoe? Its crap.
A pool table? might get an extra 2 people in a night that like pool. Its not gonna attract a big crowd every night.

The simple fact is that tax needs to be cut in the sector.
I live next to the border, in the town where i live i will pay 28 euro for a bottle of vodka, if i drive up the road for 15 mins i can get a litre of the same vodka for 12 quid sterling. Why would i pay more than i have to? Even the pubs in Derry are charging like 2 quid for a pint and thats all the pubs, not just a few.
Our government needs to waken up, cut taxes all over and people will spend and the economy will recover quicker, but then again we live in Ireland...........we have to do it the hard and stupid way.

mobius42

On The Last Word, they were arguing that the Govt. shouldn't reduce the blood alcohol limit in case it affected their business! What planet are these guys on? They create these convoluted excuses as to why their business is failing and consistently ignore what thousands of people are constantly telling them.

Just lower your prices, turn down the obnoxious music and stop complaining whenever your business dips due to your own wilful ignorance of what people want.

Red_Marauder

Fracture wrote: »

in the town where i live i will pay 28 euro for a bottle of vodka, if i drive up the road for 15 mins i can get a litre of the same vodka for 12 quid sterling.

Even by Irish standards you're paying too much for that Vodka, what are you drinking!

super_furry

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

If they lower the price of drink i may go back to going out at 8pm instead of the 11pm or so i would go out at now.

This. I'd spend more on Friday and Saturday night in the pub rather than drinking at home if the price of a pint wasn't so expensive.

irishvamp90

I work part time in a local type pub so i'll try to stick up for the industry but yes the vinters do moan alrite!i work in a family run pub and the owner has to be a member if you to trade,this is not law but the vfi would make it hard for you to open,he has very little time for them he told me.Price we all know is main issue but people just aint going to pubs because they have more options than 10 years ago,more young people have their own places these days,sports,internet etc
Pubs dont do live music as much because it costs alot and sometimes the return aint worth it,people say put video games,plasma's,pool in a pub but alot of people just want a drink not an arcade
Young people my age want cheap drink to get drunk before going out,their not learning too drink socially in a pub just want a messy club.And when young people do go to a pub they dont know how to behave and that pisses off the older/regular crowd.So alot of pubs dont want young drinkers cause they can be messy and a a pain in the hole they come in langers and they have to deal with it then
There is no doubt they have been rip off publicans but yet people will go to the trendy pubs,big clubs and get screwed yet they wont support their local while nothing fancy its always there,cheaper,and once your a regular its a home from homeMy brother is looking at taking over a pub but a young guy with ideas in this game gets shot down by the big publicans
Sorry for the all over the place rant i will tidy it up later and add more points

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

Fracture wrote: »

You try coming up with an idea that will bring customers into your bar.

Maybe try getting a good band in? Its usually too expensive
Cheaper pints? If you make it alot cheatper than the pubs around you, your gonna get all the scum bags of the day in.
Karakoe? Its crap.
A pool table? might get an extra 2 people in a night that like pool. Its not gonna attract a big crowd every night.

The simple fact is that tax needs to be cut in the sector.
I live next to the border, in the town where i live i will pay 28 euro for a bottle of vodka, if i drive up the road for 15 mins i can get a litre of the same vodka for 12 quid sterling. Why would i pay more than i have to? Even the pubs in Derry are charging like 2 quid for a pint and thats all the pubs, not just a few.
Our government needs to waken up, cut taxes all over and people will spend and the economy will recover quicker, but then again we live in Ireland...........we have to do it the hard and stupid way.

Coffee bars were a good idea, I thought, but that was vetoed. One pub I know in Mayo started up a darts league with all the other pubs within an x mile radius and that worked.

Beyond that, I'm not in the field. But I assume the ideas are out there.

ScumLord

mickos wrote: »

1. Bring back live music

Please god no, a pub here does that and most live acts are just brutal and so loud and annoying they drive away allot of customers.

The vinters association are nothing better than a mafia cartel. **** them.

Will

Neamhshuntasach wrote: »

If they lower the price of drink i may go back to going out at 8pm instead of the 11pm or so i would go out at now.

Like most people nowadays I have a few drinks at home then head out around 11. It's funny, pubs have had it so good for so long and now they're whinging, and they want the government to lower taxes. When they could just lower the prices themselves. Even at €3 a bottle pubs/clubs still would make a killing.

Its highway robbery really, yeah you pay for the surroundings etc but most are realising now that heading down to the off licence and having a night in with mates in front of the xbox is more fun and cheaper, a lot cheaper.

ElBarco

Stop charging so much for soft drinks. Makes my blood boil paying a fortune for those tiny little bottles of coke.

ronbyrne2005

They called for a price freeze a few months ago under the pretence of protecting the consumer when in reality they didnt want members engaging in price cutting during the recession.
The guy on the last word said they werent responsible for two thirds of the price which government got which is clearly BS. If shops can sell bottles beer for a euro and make a profit then publicans are getting them for less than a euro and selling them for 4-6euro.

trout

I'd have some sympathy for the bar staff losing their jobs. That's never good.

I'm fed up with lobby groups bemoaning the fate of their special interests as if they have absolutely no control, say or influence in their own fate.

The smoking ban killed the pub trade. The recession killed the pub trade. The lack of public transport killed the pub trade. VAT killed the pub trade. The blood/alcohol limit killed the pub trade. Local authority charges killed the pub trade.

If you think about it long and hard enough, the East Link toll bridge probably killed the pub trade too.

Wah wah wah ... it's always someone else's fault :mad:

I don't understand the enormous sense of privelige that comes out at times like this, again from these lobby groups.

Surely a pub is a business, not a license to print money or a guarantee of a secure income. It's a commercial enterprise, not some form of glorified social-outreach community centre.

RandolphEsq

I find it hilarious that Vintners have this superiority complex about them where they see themselves as almost cornerstones of society. This is namely due to the 'cosy' relationship they bathe in with FF and other politicians. They think the world revolves around them because they have special seats reserved for politicians. They forget that it is the politicians running the country on behalf of the people, not the politicians 'helping out' their 'friends' the vintners whenever they get in a rut.
**** them I say, they are making near 500% profit per pint which is utter madness. Lower those prices or face ruin

Kalashnikov_Kid

Its the age old Irish 'entitlement' mentality of making a guaranteed comfortable living by providing a 'service' ala the taxi drivers

ronbyrne2005

On the last word the Vitners guy also said they want to get rid of cheap drink in shops for the public good! Ya right, the public good or the publicans good? If they forced prices in shops up with taxes etc or restrictions, people will be heading to Newry every month to stock up on gargle.

hot2def

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

On the last word the Vitners guy also said they want to get rid of cheap drink in shops for the public good! Ya right, the public good or the publicans good? If they forced prices in shops up with taxes etc or restrictions, people will be heading to Newry every month to stock up on gargle.

wait, they want offies gone altogether? what possible argument could they make for that other than "We want the competition gone, so we can have more money"?

trout

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

On the last word the Vitners guy also said they want to get rid of cheap drink in shops for the public good! Ya right, the public good or the publicans good? If they forced prices in shops up with taxes etc or restrictions, people will be heading to Newry every month to stock up on gargle.

I'd say cheap drink in shops could be better for society in some ways ... ideally you'd have people around for a few social beers and pleasant company, with less opportunity for loutish behaviour.

Red_Marauder

trout wrote: »

I'd say cheap drink in shops could be better for society in some ways ... ideally you'd have people around for a few social beers and pleasant company, with less opportunity for loutish behaviour.

Absolutely, less of everyone spilling out onto streets at 2.30am, music people actually want to hear, finger food, mates you can sit and chat with and a couch to sleep on if you really get smashed. I go to pubs less and less these days and really not missing it.

ronbyrne2005

hot2def wrote: »

wait, they want offies gone altogether? what possible argument could they make for that other than "We want the competition gone, so we can have more money"?

They claim drinking at home is unsafe as you can pour spirits without measuring it etc and in a pub you are supervised by the big hearted publican/barmen.

hot2def

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

They claim drinking at home is unsafe as you can pour spirits without measuring it etc and in a pub you are supervised by the big hearted publican/barmen.

oh yes? is that not claiming responsiblilty for customers safety and health?

Screw them. its nearly 6 quid for a pint of cider, 8 will get me 6 cans of frosty jack and I can chill out with my friends at home.

Jenroche

ElBarco wrote: »

Stop charging so much for soft drinks. Makes my blood boil paying a fortune for those tiny little bottles of coke.

They should give out soft drinks for free for designated drivers...especially in country pubs where a lot of people need transportation to get to and from. What they lose on a few cokes they'd make back on a round of pints. They only have their own greed to blame.

Jen ;->

Red_Marauder

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

They claim drinking at home is unsafe as you can pour spirits without measuring it etc and in a pub you are supervised by the big hearted publican/barmen.

That's sort of true unless you're one of us unfortunate exponential drinkers: the more you drink the smaller the measures appear, so you compensate by ordering larger drinks at a faster and faster rate. Sadly for me, the barmen don't have issue with this!

Salvelinus

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Coffee bars were a good idea, I thought, but that was vetoed. One pub I know in Mayo started up a darts league with all the other pubs within an x mile radius and that worked.

Beyond that, I'm not in the field. But I assume the ideas are out there.

What's to stop continental type wine/coffee bars opening?

mikemac

Salvelinus wrote: »

What's to stop continental type wine/coffee bars opening?

You need a licence.

It was about to introduced but got shot down by Fianna Fail, the republican party.

It was a great idea, a shame it never happened.


The publicans would want to start thinking of some better ways to run their business. Sure they face challenges, who doesn't!
Sitting back and moaning won't solve it.
Go organize a VFI conference and quit your moaning in the press

Chilli Con Kearney

Choose Irish pubs and clubs.
Choose €4.50 for a pint of lager.
Choose €7.20 for a spirit and mixer.
Choose being shoved into a corner like cattle.
Choose sticky tables and floors that are never cleaned.
Choose chairs that break your back.
Choose a grumpy barman who throws your pint at you.
Choose lounge staff who expect a tip on every round.
Choose paying a "Cloakroom charge".
Choose pissy toilets with urine all over the floor and doors that don't lock.
Choose pub grub charged at restaurant prices.
Choose patio heaters that never work.
Choose watered-down pints.
Choose €2 for 20ml of mi wadi.
Choose €2.80 for 250ml of coca-cola.
Choose being told to "Get out" after providing the business with a substantial portion of your income.
Choose not returning.

Biggins

The Vinters federation operate like RGDATA. For years they bullied left, right and center.
Now their "chickens are come home to roost".

No sympathy for them whatsoever and it seems the public is reacting a great deal the same way.

Biggins

mikemac wrote: »

You need a licence.

It was about to introduced but got shot down by Fianna Fail, the republican party.

It was a great idea, a shame it never happened....

Why was it shot down??? :rolleyes:

Massive 40% of Fianna Fail TD's Are Pub Owners

Did you know 40% of Fianna Fail T.D.s are publicans. The drink (pub) licence stranglehold, they control, represents the largest monopoly in the State. The price at which these licences change hands reflects the gross hypocrisy of these elected rural T.Ds.
They represent a cartel of individuals who organize to manipulate,dominate and effectively control the pricing structure, and the social and drinking habits, of 4 million citizens.

Publicans were last night mulling over whether to raise the price of a pint after a High Court case which forced the end of a price freeze. It was still unclear last night whether the price of a pint would go up or, more unlikely, go down, following the High Court ruling that a price freeze by publicans amounted to a breach of competition rules. Its been recognised however that the LVA and VFI (Licensed Vintners' Association and the Vintners' Federation of Ireland) created a price freeze NOT to stop prices from going upwards but to stop others from LOWERING their individual pub prices. Many individual pub owners are getting tired of the bully tactics supposedly taken out in their name.

In one infamous case, there exists a well known publican in Athlone who sold all pints for €3 everyday. He was a member of the VFI. Two other publicans came into the pub one day and demanded to speak to the owner When he arrived they started going on about "if you want the protection of the VFI you will have to bring your prices into line with the rest of us etc..." The owner opened his wallet in front of other customers witnessing the event, takes out a cheque that he'd made out for his next membership fee and riped it up, threw it at them and told them to get the **** out of his pub. Reportedly during the heated argument VFI-Athlone had admitted, in front of an entire pub full of people, that they fix prices amongst themselves.

The publics reaction of the prospect of pub prices being raised is one of anger and determination to further stay away from the rip-off pubs and their organisation ironically claiming to be actually working in favor of the business, but as the pubs empty more, the losers will be thousands of staff in the country and the public further being ripped off!
As a simple example, consider this: a bottle of Sauvignon Blanc starting out life at a cost of €2.05, costs on average €24 in Irish restaurants and bars when the public goes to pay for it!

Above from: unitedpeople.ie

and

http://www.soldiersofdestiny.org/tddrinklobbyscandal.htm

the_syco

ronbyrne2005 wrote: »

They claim drinking at home is unsafe as you can pour spirits without measuring it etc and in a pub you are supervised by the big hearted publican/barmen.

Safe? SAFE? SAFE? The b*****ds will pour you shots until you have no money, then throw you out claiming your drunk (course you are, they've served you more than enough drink), letting you wonder home drunk out of your mind.

As opposed to being at home, drinking, stumble to your bed, and go asleep.

=-=

In the good old days, after the recession, but before the boom really took off, you could get 4 pints of Guinness, a bag of Tayto, and get change of a tenner.

Now, you'd have to order only one pint of the black stuff, and a bag of Tayto, for it to be under a tenner. F**k off and die. The "local pub" will stay alive. The large pubs will die.

Drop the prices of a pint to €3 or €4 and you'll see people come back. But oh f**k no. They lose business, so they raise the price of drink... yeah, that'll really get people flocking back o_0

CCCP^

People don't go to pubs because pub prices are too high. That's the Publicans problem, and until they drop prices, nothing is going to change. I love how big business goes crying to the Government for ****ing handouts in this country, yet ordinary people are expected to foot the bill and still do business with their bull****.

994

mikom wrote: »

They're forgetting about the dole office.

And taking a few cans down to the field.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

7 euro for a pint in some sh!thole in dublin, dandoline or something, 10 euro cover charge, The luas is fairly cheap. What are they thinking? I normally get 6 cans of tuborg for 8 quid and stay in playing games or watching a video. Fcuk the VFI to be honest.

bigeasyeah

How about a nice pint for under 4 euros.

rubadub

Jenroche wrote: »

They should give out soft drinks for free for designated drivers.

Yes, coke were giving free drinks in some pubs. I have heard some publicans in the country will organise lifts or rent a minibus and driver their own punters to & from their pub.

the_syco wrote: »

In the good old days, after the recession, but before the boom really took off, you could get 4 pints of Guinness, a bag of Tayto, and get change of a tenner.

But wages have gone up, and inflation has caused other stuff to go up. I am not defending them, they certainly charge too much. But the apparent huge rise is a bit skewed due to one major reason. The real difference between now and 15 years ago is the dramatic difference in price between off licences and pubs, many younger people do not realise this. When I started drinking ~16-17 years ago I remember it roughly costed twice as much to drink in a pub as at home, not it is more like 5 times. The cheapest can back then was £1, which is €1.27, so it has actually come down in price (spirits have gone up though). All those €1 bottles were ~£1.30 back then, in another thread some lad had inflation figures and if it followed normal inflation I think those €1 bottles should be ~€2.50 now.

Other things have happened, the smoking ban saw a rise in people drinking at home. But also loads of pubs jumped on the bandwagon and expanded their size and new pubs opened, all trying to cash in. Now you have people staying at home and it keeps growing in popularity. Even when there is a birthday or reason for a get-together I see mates sticking to houses. I often end up heading home to peoples houses from the pub since the pub is simply "dead", we leave and it is even emptier, more people likely to go etc, it snowballs. My local is so dead there is little atmosphere at all, its like it used to be on a tuesday night or even afternoon. There are too many pubs and too many big pubs that look like empty barns.

Years back I really looked forward to getting out and to the pub, used to be sitting at home thinking "WTF are we not in the pub", now we are in the pub thinking "WTF are we doing here, paying these stupid prices, listening to this muck music, lets head home".

The off-licence 10pm closing seems to have backfired on them a bit too, since often we have rushed out early to be in time to get drink.

EDIT: found that thread

LiamD wrote: »

You can't just compare punt prices 15 years ago with euro prices now, you need to allow for inflation.

If you take it at 3% then the punt price of your pint now is £2.50*(1.03^15) = £3.89. Converting to euro at €1.27/£ the price today should be €4.95. A lot of pubs in Dublin are charging close enough to this price for a pint.

rubadub wrote: »

Using your own math, my cheap £1 can 15 years ago was €1.27 so should be €1.97 today with inflation. Yet there is quite a selection of cans for €1 still.

Bottles of bud/heineken/miller etc were £1.30/€1.65 so should be €2.57 with inflation, yet are always available €1 now, I have gotten heinekens as low as 64cent per bottle with offers on crates.

Quint

Maybe The Vinters Federation should stop organising price fixing and encourage healthy competition between their members.

But there's more chance of Beyonce, Scarlett Johansson and Sharon Ní Bheoláin breaking down my front door and oil wrestling on my living room floor.

skelliser

this is val hanley http://valhanley.com/
the head of the vitners association, the guy on the last word tonight.
oh and hes a member of ff, and is also abit of a property developer.
oh did i mention when he lost his seat on galway city council he somehow got into udaras na gaeltachta.
last but not least he owns two pubs in galway city, one of which is a hotel. Somehow i dont see him "suffering" during this resession.

MikeC101

hot2def wrote: »

wait, they want offies gone altogether? what possible argument could they make for that other than "We want the competition gone, so we can have more money"?

Probably something along the lines of "cheap alcohol means people will buy too much and drink it and become alcoholics" or similar twaddle.

Hell, they came out and said they were against the idea of introducing café bar licenses because they felt that such increased access to alcohol would mean more people were likely to become alcoholics.

Nothing to do with it meaning they might have more competition.

I'd like to see an unlimited amount of licenses available (for a high price), to anywhere that met health and safety requirements. Let them have actual proper competition, we'll see what will happen to drink prices then. The good pubs will thrive, the bad ones will go out of business.

G_R

you can go into your local supervalu/centra/tesco whatever and get a 20 pack or Miller/Bud/Coors Light for less than 20euro usually.

you can then go into your local pub and get one bottle of Miller/Bus/Coors for €4.80.

Even if the publican bought his order on centra. he'd be getting the stuff for €1 a bottle. I know they have overheads to cover and all but even if they sold em at €2.50, its a 150% markup, alot more people will come in, increase volume, and over time increase profits.

Until they see the reality that people are just not willing to pay 5x the price for the privilage of sitting in your lovely pub, they are going to keep on losing customers

thats my 2c

Cremated

super_furry wrote: »

This. I'd spend more on Friday and Saturday night in the pub rather than drinking at home if the price of a pint wasn't so expensive.

Exactly, the last time I was out in town was about 4 months ago and a pint bottle of Bulmers cost me 6.80/90,

it's a joke,

reduce your prices and people will not mind coming into the pubs earlier or more often,

why go out when you can drink with your friends at home in comfort for a fraction of the price, ( if you like drinking with your friends at home that is )...

Amalgam

A dubious amount of TD's have a direct interest\business link to the drinks\vintner profession.

K-9

dannym08 wrote: »

you can go into your local supervalu/centra/tesco whatever and get a 20 pack or Miller/Bud/Coors Light for less than 20euro usually.

Only in Ireland could this be seen as a good thing!

G_R

K-9 wrote: »

Only in Ireland could this be seen as a good thing!

i never said it was a good thing, i just said that when off licenses can sell it that cheap, there is no reason pubs charge nearly a fiver

K-9

dannym08 wrote: »

i never said it was a good thing, i just said that when off licenses can sell it that cheap, there is no reason pubs charge nearly a fiver

I know, was making a different point.

Why is it 4/5 times the price? Well, it isn't Tesco or Dunnes!

Pubs will have to lower prices but unfortunately that means more super pubs lacking character. We'll all be going to Tesco pubs and the "local" will be gone.

RandolphEsq

The vintners, i.e.publicans, do not read these Boards (too uneducated and simple) do our critiqueing will go unheeded. Ah well, pubs will just go out of business and the **** pubicans can starve along with their families.

"Oh yes, I am a noble pillar of upstandingness and moral superioroty that all of the 'common man' should follow. I am a publican."

Suck my balls publicans!

Amalgam

Someone was moaning about the Sky fees (for Pubs) on RTE1 Radio 1 at lunchtime, like it was forced on them.

stepbar

The publicans. How I love the publican. A publican who feels it's okay to charge 5 quid for a pint (or if it's Gogertys' in Temple Bar 6eur or so).

I'll always harp back to the North when it comes to the price of a pint etc.

I live fairly close to the border. The nearest town to me is Enniskillen. Down in Enniskillen one can get a pint of beer for a pound. Yes a pound (in Wetherspoons). And if anyone knows it, it's not a very exciting place and it definatly hasn't got the Sky Sports and the lark. Jeasus you might think it's a pint of p1ss eh? Nope quite acceptable beer TBH. And as well as that if you want a dinner with your beer you can expect to pay around 5 pounds (inc beer), which is a little over 6 euro. If anyone can tell me where you could get such a deal, I'll be there with bells on.

In fact, one night my friends were talking about how if we were 20 miles away in the republic, the same pint of beer might cost twice as much as the pub we were in. Doing a roundup of the pints, the most expensive we came across was Magners (Bulmers up here) for 2.50 STG a pint (bottle). The rest came in at around the 2 pound mark. You'd be lucky to get it up here for around the 4eur mark.

Considering the majority of pubs are family owned the logic astounds me. I know of one niteclub / pub / hotel that is run by a family. Basically every saturday mum, da and the 4 kids are out serving the pints, carrying out the bouncing and taking in the money etc. Right up to 6 months ago same club charged 10 eur to get into the night club (at Christmas they charged 12!!!!). They now charge 8. And believe me 8 eur is still too much (as it's a sh1te hole).

Now they couldn't be that badly off considering that they have NO staffing costs as they all own a share of the business (or the siblings will at least eventually). I'm sure they pay themselves but considering that there is profit to be made off every drink sold, wages are paid out of that. It's very different to paying an outsider directly. Maybe I don't understand the pub trade very well but it all seems a bit crazy to say the least.