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Import fees

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  • 25-08-2009 5:10pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 44


    Hi all,
    I'm looking for some advice on costs associated with importing goods from China. I have a consignment arriving in the next few days and am wondering what I need to do. I've rang around a couple of freight handlers for information but wanted to verify with anyone who has gone through this process. I'm planning on collecting the shipment myself

    Shipment is 200kg, 50 cartons, 2.95 m3

    As I understand it the following costs are due:

    Customs duty = 3.5% of CIF cost
    VAT (I'm VAT exempt so have to pay it) = CIF + Duty * 21.5%
    Agency fee = €75
    ISPS (port security) = €15
    Courier (whatever this is) = €30
    Another charge at €65 per metre cubed?
    Freight handlers fee €60-70

    So any help appreciated in confirming that the above cost are correct or are there any I am not aware of? I have all relevant documentation in place and ready to go but jusy want to check.

    Thanks,
    Tom


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    Hello Tomskimc,

    I gather that you have left the shipping arrangements to your supplier in China ?

    Duty and VAT should be oke, although without knowing what the commodity is, unable to comment on the rate of duty/vat. The calculation is correct.

    In relation to the local charges, here is what you would have expected to pay if you had organised the Oceanfreight yourself from China ;

    1) Agency fee - Euro 55.00
    2) ISPS fee - Euro 0
    3) Another Charge (Depot Handling/Unloading) Euro 55.00 per 1000 kgs or 3 cubic meter, subject to a minimum of Euro 55.00
    4) Customs Clearance Euro 55.00

    The charges you are listed come to Euro 371.75
    The charges I have outlined the cost would come to Euro 165.00
    The difference is Euro 206.75 and gues what ? The average cost ex China (let's say ; Shenzhen/Hong Kong/Shanghai) to Dublin is Us$ 295 for 2.95 cbm or Euro 213.77 at today's rate of exchange.

    I suspect that your supplier in China negotiated an extremely attractive Oceanfreight rate with the carrier (Possibly zero or something nominal). The problem however is that you end up "paying" for the low freight rate your supplier enjoys in the form of inflated local cost in Ireland. In all likelyhood the shipment did not come in a direct container from China to Ireland but was transhipped in Rotterdam or UK port and then consigned/forwarded to a local agent in Ireland. So there are a few people in this loop and they all want to make their pound of flesh.

    At this stage you are locked in, not a lot you can do. I would query the courier fee (why would they need to employ a courier, all customs entries are submitted electronically) and push them to get the customs clearance (Freight Handlers fee) down.

    I would suggest, if you bring in any further shipments to do the following ;

    1) Ask your supplier for a CIF price with the proviso that they advise the details of the "receiving agent" in Ireland (You may get an agent "somewhere / anywhere" in the UK/ Europe, if that happens you will know you are going to get very high charges) Also, ask them to quote the Oceanfreight separately in their quote to you.
    2) If you get the details of an Irish agent, contact them for their local charges
    3) Check out Oceanfreight rates in the Irish market.

    If I can be of any further assistance, please let me know

    Best of luck
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,001 ✭✭✭Mickk


    To be honest they are probably doing you a favour with the courier fee. I'd say if it is a very simple customs entry they are going to do it inhouse and not charge you for the entry itself (usually 55 euro). What they will have to do is get you to get a bank draught for the vat and import duty made out to customs and excise and they will have to courier it to customs.


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 tomskimc


    Thanks Rudolf289 and Mickk for the replies. You are correct about shipment. I did CIF from China and it is being routed through Rotterdam.

    Lesson learned! Can you recommend a freight handler here to deal with to receive this shipment?

    Thanks again for the help,
    Tom


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    Hello Tom,

    at this stage you're best to deal with the agent nominated on the B/L or, if that is the agent in Rotterdam, the agent they nominate in Ireland. Just make sure that the "freight handlers fee" is actually the fee for the customs clearance.

    As to the draft for customs & excise, I don't charge my clients for sending that in to Customs, especially if I actually handle the transportation from Origin to Ireland. If they post the draft to me in Ballincollig I lodge it with Customs in Cork, FOC. Chances are, the agent is lodging a number of documents and drafts with C&E at the same time, paying to the courier once and re-charging the clients.

    If you want to scan me a copy of the B/L and the documents, I can have a look at it for your and see what I can do to help minimise the expenses.

    Best regards,
    Rudy de Groot,
    RDG Logistics Ltd
    TEL : 086-8055691
    E-Mail : rudy@rdglogistics.eu


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 tomskimc


    Thanks Rudy. I've just sent you some mail.

    Cheers,
    Tom


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    Hi guys - well I should have read this thread before I got myself all worked up !
    Anyhow same story CIF ex Shenzhen, travels via Rotterdam and a strange bill from the agent that got the handling in Ireland (Total Freight Management). However there is now a new dimention that has been added. The CISF is presented as a China Import Services Fee and the impression is given that it is a China state levy or tax. It is not. It is a low level piece of extorsion.
    The shipper in China, having got your order from the exporter and been paid his handing fees , tags on a charge, $60.50 per cubic meter, and it follows the consignment all the way to you. You will not get your consignment from the Irish handler if you do not pay it. They in turn have been billed the scam from Rotterdam (or should it be renamed Rottendam)
    The world of officialdom in Ireland, Department of Enterprise, Revenue and others all pleaded never having heard of it !! I got a helpful man in Revenue Tariff section who sent me the attached link .I got several explanations but in reality you can call it piracy, extorsion, bacsheesh, backhander or whatever as it is a low level scam that willing import agents/handlers have allowed become established. Good old Rip of Ireland is alive and well. Glad to report though that I rattled enough cages to have the DETI raise it in the September Market Access meeting in Brussels.
    http://www.rwfreight.co.uk/pages/index/ref/home/list_item_id/539


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    SirNorman wrote: »
    Hi guys - well I should have read this thread before I got myself all worked up !
    Anyhow same story CIF ex Shenzhen, travels via Rotterdam and a strange bill from the agent that got the handling in Ireland (Total Freight Management). However there is now a new dimention that has been added. The CISF is presented as a China Import Services Fee and the impression is given that it is a China state levy or tax. It is not. It is a low level piece of extorsion.
    The shipper in China, having got your order from the exporter and been paid his handing fees , tags on a charge, $60.50 per cubic meter, and it follows the consignment all the way to you. You will not get your consignment from the Irish handler if you do not pay it. They in turn have been billed the scam from Rotterdam (or should it be renamed Rottendam)
    The world of officialdom in Ireland, Department of Enterprise, Revenue and others all pleaded never having heard of it !! I got a helpful man in Revenue Tariff section who sent me the attached link .I got several explanations but in reality you can call it piracy, extorsion, bacsheesh, backhander or whatever as it is a low level scam that willing import agents/handlers have allowed become established. Good old Rip of Ireland is alive and well. Glad to report though that I rattled enough cages to have the DETI raise it in the September Market Access meeting in Brussels.
    http://www.rwfreight.co.uk/pages/index/ref/home/list_item_id/539

    Hello Sir Norman,

    I am sorry you have fallen victim to this well established practice.

    I am current dealing with a client who bought product ex Shenzhen on a C&F basis. The shipment is 2000 kgs / 21.5 cbm and surprisingly was shipped as an LCL / Groupage shipment rather than as a 20' container. The shipper in China added Us$ 750 for the freight part, which seems to be the cost they paid to the consolidator / forwarder in Shenzhen. The consignee in Ireland has been presented with a bill of over € 2000 (!!!!!!!!).

    My advice to anybody who is contemplating buying product in China is to agree FOB (Free on Board) terms with the supplier, employ a freight forwarder in Ireland and agree pricing from FOB to door in advance. That way, there should be no surprises.

    Norman, I think your endeavour in getting the DETI to raise the issue in Brussels is impressive. I would not hold out much hope in the short to medium term to see and end to this practice. The only way to avoid being overcharged is to take charge of the shipping process yourself.

    Regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    Thanks Rudolf. Yes I know I was the next lamb to the slaughter. I eventually got a copy invoice from a Dutch company in Rotterdam from the handling agent when I was not playing the game .So I rang them. They were very easy with information and broke down the CISF into three charges and more or less said we all share in this and that is the way things are. They all share in the booty of the CISF.
    I paid the company Total Freight in Blanchardstown to get my order but under duress.
    I have passed all correspondence on the the DETI and the Revenue and the Exporters Association. I am just too pissed to let this go so I am pursuing this further. If they are involved in a scam then let them pay tax on it retrospectively. The revenue can go back 6 years for starters.
    Contacted ISME to alert them to the scam. The call was diverted to the recruitement officer. Rip off Ireland , just can't move without someone with their hand out.
    Exporters Association have agreed to enquire from their members about information about this. Guess what ... they never heard of the CISF either !!!
    Strange isn't it. This scam has been targeted at Europe specifically for more than two years and nobody knows nuttin' to quote Tony Soprano.
    My yet take legal action to get further information in evidence and get back my 200 yoyo's.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    Thanks Rudolf. Yes I know I was the next lamb to the slaughter. I eventually got a copy invoice from a Dutch company in Rotterdam from the handling agent when I was not playing the game .So I rang them. They were very easy with information and broke down the CISF into three charges and more or less said we all share in this and that is the way things are. They all share in the booty of the CISF.
    I paid the company Total Freight in Blanchardstown to get my order but under duress.
    I have passed all correspondence on the the DETI and the Revenue and the Exporters Association. I am just too pissed to let this go so I am pursuing this further. If they are involved in a scam then let them pay tax on it retrospectively. The revenue can go back 6 years for starters.
    Contacted ISME to alert them to the scam. The call was diverted to the recruitement officer. Rip off Ireland , just can't move without someone with their hand out.
    Exporters Association have agreed to enquire from their members about information about this. Guess what ... they never heard of the CISF either !!!
    Strange isn't it. This scam has been targeted at Europe specifically for more than two years and nobody knows nuttin' to quote Tony Soprano.
    My yet take legal action to get further information in evidence and get back my 200 yoyo's.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 tnec


    Hi, was just reading that info about the scam going on. I recently got caught up in this. Brought in some goods, 250 kgs.

    Ripped off on charges big time.

    Agency 70.00
    THC 369.25
    UK delivery order 30.00
    Exchange rate differential 99.00
    China import service fee 253.00
    Port security fee 10.00
    Customs Clearance fee 65.00

    This was the detail furnished to me on an invoice, with very little explanation. I paid 350 us dollars to my supplier in China for shipping.
    Transglobal say these 'fees' are collected by them to send back to the agent in China.
    Maybe someone in the business might take alook at this and advise. I had to pay it to get my goods but I intend to follow this up and expose this rip off.
    I recently brought in a shipment 10 times heavier and about double the volume and the import fees were one third of this lot.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    tnec wrote: »
    Hi, was just reading that info about the scam going on. I recently got caught up in this. Brought in some goods, 250 kgs.

    Ripped off on charges big time.

    Agency 70.00
    THC 369.25
    UK delivery order 30.00
    Exchange rate differential 99.00
    China import service fee 253.00
    Port security fee 10.00
    Customs Clearance fee 65.00

    This was the detail furnished to me on an invoice, with very little explanation. I paid 350 us dollars to my supplier in China for shipping.
    Transglobal say these 'fees' are collected by them to send back to the agent in China.
    Maybe someone in the business might take alook at this and advise. I had to pay it to get my goods but I intend to follow this up and expose this rip off.
    I recently brought in a shipment 10 times heavier and about double the volume and the import fees were one third of this lot.


    Hello Tnec,

    I keep saying it, don't leave the shipping arrangements to your Chinese supplier. Buy on FOB terms and appoint a forwarder here in Ireland to handle the shipments for you. He can tell you what the charges are in advance, you have an opportunity to negotiate and you avoid costly
    surprises.

    I am sorry you were caught

    Regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    Hi Guys,
    I eventually got the attached invoice copy from the Rotterdam 'consolidator' to explain the fee. Can you translate it Rudolf ?
    By the way there is a Customs Consultative Committee that meet on relevant matters. This consultative body includes Importers and the Department of Enterprise. The Principal Officer of the Market Access Unit on the DETI has agreed to raise the infamous 'fee' at the next meeting.
    Great to see that someone is taking this seriously at last

    SSCRotterdam.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    SirNorman wrote: »
    Hi Guys,
    I eventually got the attached invoice copy from the Rotterdam 'consolidator' to explain the fee. Can you translate it Rudolf ?
    By the way there is a Customs Consultative Committee that meet on relevant matters. This consultative body includes Importers and the Department of Enterprise. The Principal Officer of the Market Access Unit on the DETI has agreed to raise the infamous 'fee' at the next meeting.
    Great to see that someone is taking this seriously at last



    SSCRotterdam.jpg

    Hello SirNorman,

    Essentially the invoice you attached to the thread goes as follows ;

    1) Oncarriage. This is a credit from the consolidator in Rotterdam to Total Freight Management in Dublin for carrying the shipment from Rotterdam to Dublin.
    The next line is perhaps more incriminating
    2) Freight Collect COK3637314 - CIF + Origin + Transfer
    I presume COK3637314 is the Bill of Lading number under which the shipment travelled from China to Dublin
    CIF, normally stands for Cost Insurance Freight, but in this case is likely to be China Import Fee
    Origin possibly refers to the fact that agent at origin has debitted a charge to balance the difference between the rate sold to the supplier and what the market rate should have been
    Transfer, not 100% sure but this probably relates to the handling costs incurred in Rotterdam

    All in all, my immediate concern would be that with Customs now involved they will instigate an investigation. The possible outcome of that investigation is that they will issue a ruling to the effect that the China Import Service Fee and CAF / Exchange rate Differential are actually part of the freight costs over which Import Duty and VAT has to be levied.

    The Irish Forwarders Association has received numerous complaints aswell and I have suggested to the Council to take this matter up with the relevant EU department in Brussels. Don't expect results from this any time soon.

    Hope this helps. Just make sure that for future shipments you buy on an FOB basis.

    Best regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 Simplenough


    First of all this forum is great for all advice. Would appreciate if someone could help me with my query.

    I ordered the stuff from china, not big orders, 3 cartons, approx weight 60KG. we had the agreement with shipper for free shipping and he supplied with all invoices and bill of lading etc.

    Now how much can i expect to pay Vat, Duty, Agent fee( if any) etc.

    Even though shipping is free, can i be stung by any hidden charges?
    Products are beauty related.

    Any help much appreciated.


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    First of all this forum is great for all advice. Would appreciate if someone could help me with my query.

    I ordered the stuff from china, not big orders, 3 cartons, approx weight 60KG. we had the agreement with shipper for free shipping and he supplied with all invoices and bill of lading etc.

    Now how much can i expect to pay Vat, Duty, Agent fee( if any) etc.

    Even though shipping is free, can i be stung by any hidden charges?
    Products are beauty related.

    Any help much appreciated.

    Hello Simpleenough

    In order to establish the Duty and VAT for you, I need the following information ;

    1) Invoice value
    2) Commodity or Customs Tariff number

    On that basis I can work out what you will be paying for Duty and VAT

    In relation to the arrival charges, this is where I fear you may run into a surprise (not of the birthday / happy variety)

    On the Bill of Lading you will see - usually at the bottom - a clause with ; "For delivery apply to". That will be the agent at destination who will receive the goods.

    Suggest you contact the agent, give them the Bill of Lading number and ask them to advise you the arrival charges. In all likelyhood they will run something along the lines of ;

    A) Unloading
    B) Terminal Handling
    C) Agency fee
    D) China Import Service Fee
    E) Port Security / ISPS
    F) CAF

    I would be surprised if the above charges were below Euro 180.00

    This does not include customs clearance and delivery, which will be additional.

    Let me know

    Regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 Simplenough


    Thanks very much for reply, I checked the bill of lading, all it days is CFS, freight prepaid.
    I rang agent they haven't got the package yet so they don't know the charges yet. They will be able to tell me early next month.
    Total invoice is 670 usd if that helps.


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    Thanks very much for reply, I checked the bill of lading, all it days is CFS, freight prepaid.
    I rang agent they haven't got the package yet so they don't know the charges yet. They will be able to tell me early next month.
    Total invoice is 670 usd if that helps.

    Hello Simpleenough,

    If the agent can not tell you at this stage what the charges are, it means they are waiting for the forwarder / carrier in China to tell them how much to collect here in Ireland. That means you will pay a lot of charges on this end. Sorry

    If you can tell me what the commodity is, I can have a look at calculating the Duty and VAT.

    Cheers,
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    In my experience the fees are all multiples of €65 + Vat. That is Agency Fees, Handling Fees, Custom Clearance Fees all are usually costed at that. There may be a security fee for storage as if they did not have an obligation under contract but that is about €15. There will most likely be a transfer fee as your goods will travel via Rotterdam or Antwerp or somewhere like that. They will probably charge you €20 for courier services to send your documents to the customs if not two courier fees generated by a handling agent in Ireland that you have no previous knowledge of. There may well be a delivery charge from the port of destination depending on where you live. There is a requirement that you pay VAT up front and then you must look at the Tariff category that your goods come under and see if you have to pay excise duty which is up front also. Then Finally there is the China Imprort Services Fee which will be calculated at €60.50 per cubic meter of your consignment.
    I suppose you could consider yourself lucky as in the US they now have lots of additional charges that they group under letters like TTC which probably means turning on the computer charge !! - I jest !


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    SirNorman wrote: »
    In my experience the fees are all multiples of €65 + Vat. That is Agency Fees, Handling Fees, Custom Clearance Fees all are usually costed at that. There may be a security fee for storage as if they did not have an obligation under contract but that is about €15. There will most likely be a transfer fee as your goods will travel via Rotterdam or Antwerp or somewhere like that. They will probably charge you €20 for courier services to send your documents to the customs if not two courier fees generated by a handling agent in Ireland that you have no previous knowledge of. There may well be a delivery charge from the port of destination depending on where you live. There is a requirement that you pay VAT up front and then you must look at the Tariff category that your goods come under and see if you have to pay excise duty which is up front also. Then Finally there is the China Imprort Services Fee which will be calculated at €60.50 per cubic meter of your consignment.
    I suppose you could consider yourself lucky as in the US they now have lots of additional charges that they group under letters like TTC which probably means turning on the computer charge !! - I jest !

    Hello SirNorman

    A couple of points ;

    1) Excise duty only applies on items such as alcohol and tobacco. You possibly mean Import Duty (or Customs Duty) ?
    2) The only items in the list of fees that you mention as € 65.00 + VAT that should attract VAT is the delivery charge and/or the courier charge. Everything else should not be charged VAT. Eventhough you can claim VAT back, it should not be charged on items such as Handling, Agency and Customs clearance.

    To all readers of this thread ; do not leave the shipping arrangements to your supplier. It is a guaranteed recipe for being overcharged on this end. Negotiate FOB terms with your supplier and appoint a forwarder on this end to act on your behalf. It will work out cheaper and give you control.

    Cheers,
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 9 SirNorman


    My next consignment is about to leave China, 7 weeks late ! I had send $125 for C&F as quoted by the supplier. The item is 250Kg and less than one cubic meter. I tried to change to FOB and take the hit on the difference. This is the reply I got: (how good is your Chinese?) I have a suggestion for the import fee: Usually we don't offend the shipping company because the goods and some documents on their hand but we can change the shipping company after the orders, So i think it is not worth for you to check the fee(I think it is not a large fee and you will offend them,right) with them because the goods is on their hand.they have too much excuse for your goods till they get enough moeny,maybe they can let you loss more. So i think you can check the fee with another shipping company,if the different fee is not large,ignor them(we usually do like this and think change them or not)it is myself little suggestion.

    I have been quoted as follows by my Irish Agent:
    1 x generator 250 kgs 110 x 70 x 80 cms FOB: Fuzhou Port China
    Ocean freight: € 250
    Local Charges : Agency: € 65.00, Handling: € 45.00, Clearance: € 65.00, ISPS: € 18.00, Delivery to Cork:€ 55.00
    No mention of the China Import Services Fee! Insurance not quoted yet.
    It will be interesting to see how this works out as the Chinese do not seem to want to do what I ask. Watch this space ! I will post the entire transaction 'till the goods are on my floor.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    SirNorman wrote: »
    My next consignment is about to leave China, 7 weeks late ! I had send $125 for C&F as quoted by the supplier. The item is 250Kg and less than one cubic meter. I tried to change to FOB and take the hit on the difference. This is the reply I got: (how good is your Chinese?) I have a suggestion for the import fee: Usually we don't offend the shipping company because the goods and some documents on their hand but we can change the shipping company after the orders, So i think it is not worth for you to check the fee(I think it is not a large fee and you will offend them,right) with them because the goods is on their hand.they have too much excuse for your goods till they get enough moeny,maybe they can let you loss more. So i think you can check the fee with another shipping company,if the different fee is not large,ignor them(we usually do like this and think change them or not)it is myself little suggestion.

    I have been quoted as follows by my Irish Agent:
    1 x generator 250 kgs 110 x 70 x 80 cms FOB: Fuzhou Port China
    Ocean freight: € 250
    Local Charges : Agency: € 65.00, Handling: € 45.00, Clearance: € 65.00, ISPS: € 18.00, Delivery to Cork:€ 55.00
    No mention of the China Import Services Fee! Insurance not quoted yet.
    It will be interesting to see how this works out as the Chinese do not seem to want to do what I ask. Watch this space ! I will post the entire transaction 'till the goods are on my floor.

    Hello Sir Norman,

    ask your Chinese Supplier for the details of the agent of the carrier in Ireland. Then contact them for the arrival costs. Once you have those costs you can demonstrate why you want to change the terms to FOB.

    Will send you a comparisson quote by PM.

    Best regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 Simplenough


    RUDOLF289 wrote: »
    Hello Simpleenough

    In order to establish the Duty and VAT for you, I need the following information ;

    1) Invoice value
    2) Commodity or Customs Tariff number

    On that basis I can work out what you will be paying for Duty and VAT

    In relation to the arrival charges, this is where I fear you may run into a surprise (not of the birthday / happy variety)

    On the Bill of Lading you will see - usually at the bottom - a clause with ; "For delivery apply to". That will be the agent at destination who will receive the goods.

    Suggest you contact the agent, give them the Bill of Lading number and ask them to advise you the arrival charges. In all likelyhood they will run something along the lines of ;

    A) Unloading
    B) Terminal Handling
    C) Agency fee
    D) China Import Service Fee
    E) Port Security / ISPS
    F) CAF

    I would be surprised if the above charges were below Euro 180.00

    This does not include customs clearance and delivery, which will be additional.

    Let me know

    Regards,
    Rudolf289


    How accurate were you?

    I just got the email with the forwarder charges.
    Agency: €50
    Handling: €48
    Custom clearance: €60
    THC: €22


    Total €180.60 + Vat
    Can you advice me is it reasonable for 3 cartons less than 50 kg, can i negotiate with them with the charges?
    What will be the cheapest option for me in future?
    Postage was paid by supplier.
    Thanks


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    How accurate were you?

    I just got the email with the forwarder charges.
    Agency: €50
    Handling: €48
    Custom clearance: €60
    THC: €22


    Total €180.60 + Vat
    Can you advice me is it reasonable for 3 cartons less than 50 kg, can i negotiate with them with the charges?
    What will be the cheapest option for me in future?
    Postage was paid by supplier.
    Thanks

    Hello Simplenough,

    Considering the charges you listed include Customs clearance, it looks reasonable. I would never say no to negotiating, but I am nearly certain that the agent will be telling you to ...... (fill in the blanks your self). I also don't think the supplier will be any help in this case, but make him aware of the costs. I suspect the local charges are several multiples of the freight he paid from China to Dublin.

    For future reference suggest the following ;

    1) Ask your supplier to confirm a CIF and an FOB price
    2) Ask your supplier to confirm the details of the Irish agent of the carrier he would use (so you can check the local Irish charges beforehand)
    3) Get the details of the shipment, e.g. nr of pieces, weight and dimensions (LxWxH)
    4) Ask an Irish Freight Forwarder (or maybe two or three) to quote you the charges for the shipment
    5) Compare CIF price from your supplier + local Irish charges to FOB price + freight and local charges quoted by the Irish forwarder

    Only, once you are convinced you have checked everything out, place / confirm the order with your supplier. I would expect that FOB + freight and local charges quoted by the Irish forwarder will be the best way to go, but you need to check it.

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers,
    Rudolf289


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8 Simplenough


    RUDOLF289 wrote: »
    Hello Simplenough,

    Considering the charges you listed include Customs clearance, it looks reasonable. I would never say no to negotiating, but I am nearly certain that the agent will be telling you to ...... (fill in the blanks your self). I also don't think the supplier will be any help in this case, but make him aware of the costs. I suspect the local charges are several multiples of the freight he paid from China to Dublin.

    For future reference suggest the following ;

    1) Ask your supplier to confirm a CIF and an FOB price
    2) Ask your supplier to confirm the details of the Irish agent of the carrier he would use (so you can the local Irish charges beforehand)
    3) Get the details of the shipment, e.g. nr of pieces and dimensions (LxWxH)
    4) Ask an Irish Freight Forwarder (or maybe two or three) to quote you the charges for the shipment
    5) Compare CIF price from your supplier + local Irish charges to FOB price + freight and local charges quoted by the Irish forwarder

    Only, once you are convinced you have checked everything out, place / confirm the order with your supplier. I would expect that FOB + freight and local charges quoted by the Irish forwarder will be the best way to go, but you need to check it.

    Hope this helps.

    Cheers,
    Rudolf289

    Thanks very much for your help, i did negotiate and he came down €20 ( better than nothing).
    I presume if i order a larger quantity in future i will have to pay same charges etc isn't it?
    I would also like to deal with you in future and will let you know before my next shipment.
    Thanks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 pepek


    I'm looking to import 60 kgs/ 2 boxes from Indonesia of total $ 2850 ,- My supplier offered me that the best solution will be airfreight of total cost $ 450. Can someone recomend any good insurance company?? What price should i be looking for it? $ 100??
    After all replies stated on forum, customs and VAT is clear enough! - thanks all!!!

    Just local (air port) fees are a bit confusing to me.

    Should i expect:

    THC - 55€
    Agent - 55 €
    Clearance -55€
    ISPS - 0 €

    But someone paid fees 3 times bigger. How can I avoid to this?

    Any help?

    Thanks

    Regards


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    pepek wrote: »
    I'm looking to import 60 kgs/ 2 boxes from Indonesia of total $ 2850 ,- My supplier offered me that the best solution will be airfreight of total cost $ 450. Can someone recomend any good insurance company?? What price should i be looking for it? $ 100??
    After all replies stated on forum, customs and VAT is clear enough! - thanks all!!!

    Just local (air port) fees are a bit confusing to me.

    Should i expect:

    THC - 55€
    Agent - 55 €
    Clearance -55€
    ISPS - 0 €

    But someone paid fees 3 times bigger. How can I avoid to this?

    Any help?

    Thanks

    Regards

    Hello Pepek,

    My recommendation would be as follows ;

    1) Ask your supplier if he can arrange all risk insurance. Chances are, he actually has an open policy or arrangements in place that would make it cost effective. If you try to do it from this end, it is likely to be expensive (close to 1% subject to a minimum policy charge of between é 80 and € 100)

    2) Before the supplier ships it, ask them to confirm the carrier / consolidator's agent in Ireland. Contact them before the arrangements are made to confirm their charges for airline handling, customs clearance and delivery (if required)

    3) The average charges that you should be quoted are as follows ;
    A) Airline / Terminal Handling € 35.00
    B) Customs Clearance € 55 to € 65
    C) Duty / Advance fee € 20 to € 30 (****)
    D) Agency fee € 15 to € 30

    Other than that there would only be delivery costs.

    (****) The way to avoid this charge is to transfer money directly to Customs and Excise for deposit to the agent's TAN account. I can give you the script if required. If the agent pays the money first and then collects it from you, he is "entitled" to charge you an administrative / duty advance fee for same.

    I apologise for not replying to your PM. Up the wall at the moment and I do not have a reliable agent in that part of the world to arrange transport to Ireland.

    Feel free to contact me any time if you need any further assistance or advice.

    best of luck,
    Rudolf289


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2 pepek


    Hi Rudolf, thanks for your helping. I contacted my supplier with insurance query - his answer was 2 % of total invoice goods so it makes from 2850= 60$ and also his irish agent in dublin (Avant Air & Sea Ltd.) where they responded fees:
    airline handling - 28 €
    customclearance - 55 €
    agency - 30 €
    delivery/ dublin -35 %

    So from the chats mentioned above the pricing is fair enough yes?

    And i'd have few more questions:
    1.) can you forward the script to avoid paying duty/advance fee- how do iknow EXACTLY how much to send to their account?
    2.)how do i know my packages arrived? does it worth to take delivery service / how much costs leaving a goods in port for a day?
    3.) what all documents are needed? - commercial invoice, the certificate of origin, packing list, bill of landing

    Best regards and thanks again

    Peter


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭RUDOLF289


    pepek wrote: »
    Hi Rudolf, thanks for your helping. I contacted my supplier with insurance query - his answer was 2 % of total invoice goods so it makes from 2850= 60$ and also his irish agent in dublin (Avant Air & Sea Ltd.) where they responded fees:
    airline handling - 28 €
    customclearance - 55 €
    agency - 30 €
    delivery/ dublin -35 %

    So from the chats mentioned above the pricing is fair enough yes?

    And i'd have few more questions:
    1.) can you forward the script to avoid paying duty/advance fee- how do iknow EXACTLY how much to send to their account?
    2.)how do i know my packages arrived? does it worth to take delivery service / how much costs leaving a goods in port for a day?
    3.) what all documents are needed? - commercial invoice, the certificate of origin, packing list, bill of landing

    Best regards and thanks again

    Peter

    Hello Peter,

    in reply can advise as follows ;

    1) Avant should be able to calculate the Duty / VAT prior to arrival and they should tell you how to settle this. As I said the best way is to lodge this directly to their account with Customs & Excise.
    2) Your supplier should advise you the flight details ; Master Airwaybill Number. Once you have that, Avant should be able to monitor this for you and keep you posted on the status / arrival of the shipment. You should have the day of arrival + one day free of storage. You need to work quickly and do as much in advance (e.g. transfer Duty/VAT) so there is a minimum of delay in processing the customs entry
    3) The documents required for clearance are likely to travel with the goods. It would help if your supplier forwarded you copies of the documents by e-mail and to pass them to Avant as early as possible so they can work out the Duty and VAT

    Feel free to contact me should you need any further assistance

    Best regards,
    Rudolf289


  • Registered Users Posts: 285 ✭✭Justice for the individual


    SirNorman wrote: »
    Hi guys - well I should have read this thread before I got myself all worked up !
    Anyhow same story CIF ex Shenzhen, travels via Rotterdam and a strange bill from the agent that got the handling in Ireland (Total Freight Management). However there is now a new dimention that has been added. The CISF is presented as a China Import Services Fee and the impression is given that it is a China state levy or tax. It is not. It is a low level piece of extorsion.
    The shipper in China, having got your order from the exporter and been paid his handing fees , tags on a charge, $60.50 per cubic meter, and it follows the consignment all the way to you. You will not get your consignment from the Irish handler if you do not pay it. They in turn have been billed the scam from Rotterdam (or should it be renamed Rottendam)
    The world of officialdom in Ireland, Department of Enterprise, Revenue and others all pleaded never having heard of it !! I got a helpful man in Revenue Tariff section who sent me the attached link .I got several explanations but in reality you can call it piracy, extorsion, bacsheesh, backhander or whatever as it is a low level scam that willing import agents/handlers have allowed become established. Good old Rip of Ireland is alive and well. Glad to report though that I rattled enough cages to have the DETI raise it in the September Market Access meeting in Brussels.
    http://www.rwfreight.co.uk/pages/index/ref/home/list_item_id/539


    SirNorman, I see the China Import Service Fee (CISF) was around in 2007. This is now 2012 and nothing has been done to clear up this imposition on Irish importers. Also, the Incoterms 2010 is completely ignored (perhaps through genuine ignorance) by exporters and importers, and this would be a good idea to get everyone involved in the proper Incoterms 2010 declaration when shipping their products, in particular, from China.

    I know the general term used for shipping goods, (with the buyer ordering via a shipping agent in Ireland and the freight cost to the buyer), is FOB, but this term is incorrect/outdated, as it should be FCA according to Incoterms 2010.

    FOB/CFR/CIF are ONLY suitable to breakbulk and bulk charter, where the seller actually delivers the goods on board the vessel. That does not happen with LCL and FCL, where the cargo is handed over to the carrier at a CFS (LCL) or CY (FCL). The correct rule in place for FOB is either FCA seller's premises or FCA carrier's (i.e. CFS or CY). For CFR it is CPT and for CIF, it is CIP.

    I maintain that the strict adherence to the Incoterms 2010 Book rules will assist in making shipping terms more binding, but in this we need the co-operation of all stakeholders: buyer, seller, freight agents, government agencies, customs & excise and customs clearance agents.

    I have complained to: The Dublin Chamber of Commerce, The Ireland/China Association, The Embassy of China, The Irish Customs and Excise, IIFA, but to no avail. I was trying to make the point that the imposition of the CISF's on imports, is costing Irish importers €millions. Either that, or the invoice declarations are incorrect when they clearly state C.I.F (even including freight costs) and the China agent is still trying to collect his CISF. If they are extra freight costs (to make up for a low selling point freight) then this is a false declaration and should attract the attention of the irish revenue commissioners. These extra freight costs should be liable for customs duty and vat. Also, it is creating friction between the irish customer and his irish agent when the goods arrive into Ireland, and they are confronted with this huge additional expense being sent forward from China.

    I have been championing this cause for the Irish importer, but to date, all the relevant authorities appear to be reluctant to take up the issue.

    Perhaps, if we can get organised on this ourselves, we may get somewhere. Anyone interested?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 29 apintpls


    Just two points. Why Chinese suppliers want to use C&F/CIF terms? Because by this way they feel they have better control of the goods. It is a method to reduce risk of being cheated by the buyer at the other side of the planet.

    Secondly, they get around $50 to 100 per container at the end of the year from the forwarder as commission. This money is not paid to the company or factory, but to the person who is dealing with the buyer actually.


This discussion has been closed.
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