New huge 'Victory Christian Fellowship' centre being completed in Firhouse, Dublin

CerebralCortex

Jakkass wrote: »

Believe me, it's not as if we haven't tried making an adequate defence of God's existence before on this and other fora. After a time you have to realise it is only those who are willing who will find out about God. If you are not willing to find out about God, chances are you will never come to know Him...

You are Kelly1! I knew it!

Turtwig

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You are Kelly1! I knew it!

Who's Kelly1?
*Intrigued*

IF Jk is truly Kelly, then maybe s/he'd like to explain this

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello Seanie, I went to Lourdes with the Oblates of Inchicore in 2001 and I can safely say it was the best thing I ever did. It was a wonderful experience in many ways. It's a privilege to help people confined to wheelchairs etc and really helps to reorder ones priorities and help us realize how lucky we are to be able-bodied.

I have to say I was very impressed with the wonderful atmosphere in the place and the good-will/eagerness shown by all the volunteers and the sick. The candle-lit procession is really a sight to behold.

But what I'm far more grateful for is the grace I received from our merciful Lord. Through God's grace, I returned to the catholic Church after a long absence and I haven't looked back since. My life has changed miraculously since!

God bless,
Noel.

Jakkass wrote: »

Can I ask, what makes Lourdes more attractive than say Jerusalem for pilgrimage, or have you already been to Jerusalem?

kelly1 wrote: »

I haven't been to Jerusalem but I'd love to go!

Either it's an elaborate hoax or you're wrong Cortex :P

CerebralCortex

Malty_T wrote: »

...Either it's an elaborate hoax or you're wrong Cortex :P

What I'm wrong? That's never happened before :eek:

Overblood

On a sidenote, since somebody mentioned Lourdes, here's what a visitor to Lourdes had to say when he saw the sick & disabled people bathing in the spring:

And the water was not exactly inviting. The Grotto Fathers were afraid that the output of the spring would be insufficient, so in those days they had the water in the pools changed just twice a day. As some hundred patients passed through the same water, you can imagine what a horrible slop it was at the end. There was everything in it: threads of blood, sloughed-off skin, scabs, bits of cloth and bandage, an abominable soup of ills... the miracle was that anyone emerged alive from this human slime.

Sounds like something out of a zombie movie.



That was in 1892 by the way, not sure what it's like nowadays...

Turtwig

Overblood wrote: »

That was in 1892 by the way, not sure what it's like nowadays...

Lourdes is beautiful...it really makes you want to believe.

Húrin

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Well you have evaded the question as to whether a creature who puts 6 years old in hell is worth worshipping.

Well I don't believe in hell but I think this would be a bad reason to not worship the creator of the universe. It would be a bad reason because you're more likely to be wrong about morality than said creator.

Ickle Magoo

Jakkass wrote: »

There is nothing torturous about telling people that God loves them and has a plan for their lives, and there certainly is nothing torturous in saying that people who do not accept the Gospel will be condemned for their sin.

Not quite.

I notice you use "people" and not children...when you change your sentence to;

"...and there is nothing torturous in saying children who do not accept the Gospel will be condemned for their sin...",

it's just not such an attractive sound-bite, is it?

I went to a toddler group which I thought was run in a church but was actually ran by the church - I forget which church. At the end of the class as a "present" for coming, they handed my three year old daughter a book about Lazarus, I think it was - complete with lovely child-like illustrations of screaming heads in the flames. I will never forget the look of horror & confusion on her face. Needless to say, I didn't go back. I think the phrase child abuse is over-stating it but what I witnessed as Christian "guidance" for a young child was irresponsible and damaging. :mad:

dvpower

@Hurin. I find that attitude quite difficult to understand; if God exists then anything he does is moral. We can just shut off our own moral compass, it must be faulty. Even condeming 'innocent' people to an eternity of torture in hell becomes moral and right. Hasn't this kind of thing happenned before?

Sam Vimes

Jakkass wrote: »

There is nothing torturous about telling people that God loves them and has a plan for their lives, and there certainly is nothing torturous in saying that people who do not accept the Gospel will be condemned for their sin.

Yes indeed. All are welcome in heaven: murderers, rapists, paedophiles, thieves, no matter what you do to harm others in this life you can live for eternity in paradise as long as you don't commit the one sin that is worthy of eternal punishment: not finding one tale of the supernatural more convincing than all of the other very similar ones because none of them can prove their claims.

The only actual sin in christianity, the only thing that will not be forgiven, is critical thinking

Zillah

I have never ever understood why a God that exists would be so obsessed with people believing in it. If He were real it wouldn't even be an issue.

Imagine if we never saw Barrack Obama, but that the White House staff constantly released statements saying that he was the President and that it was very important for people to believe that he was the President. Wouldn't that be a little suspicious?

On the flip side, we do in fact see Obama quite frequently and he has never once proclaimed that believing he is the President is in any way important...it's a total non-issue.

Turtwig

Zillah wrote: »

I have never ever understood why a God that exists would be so obsessed with people believing in it. If He were real it wouldn't even be an issue.

Imagine if we never saw Barrack Obama, but that the White House staff constantly released statements saying that he was the President and that it was very important for people to believe that he was the President. Wouldn't that be a little suspicious?

On the flip side, we do in fact see Obama quite frequently and he has never once proclaimed that believing he is the President is in any way important...it's a total non-issue.

Unless of course you take the view that the whole world is a stage and we are all characters created by some act of mockery for their/it/his/her amusement.

mewso

Jakkass wrote: »

I personally don't believe in purgatory.

The idea just seems a bit fantastical eh?

On the teaching of children. As an atheist I will always, until the day I die, have that nagging feeling at the back of my mind that maybe I'm wrong. It's not doubt or guilt. It's systematic teaching I received from the day I first went to school. That kind of brain-washing just can't be entirely removed. The fear I felt when told I would go to hell if I didn't do A, B or C is still crystal clear in my mind. What a wonderful world we might live in if children grew up without it.

It has been discussed before about how Atheists might not be as happy as their fellow believers but that to me is just the fact that we are fighting years of indoctrination on a daily basis. Without it I suspect we might be the happiest bunch around.

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

Unfortunately, someone decided to keep those old rags in a book, and now some people actually are put in jail because of this thing. They call it the law!

Is the law petty?

Tim Robbins: If it is true, I don't see why a limit would be required.

I have no idea what you are talking about here. I think you didn't read my post properly.

Flamed Diving

spurious wrote: »

AFAIK the main thrust of the work of Victory Outreach in Ireland to date (in north east inner city Dublin they have been around at least 10 years) has been getting people off drugs, which they are quite successful at.

Great! Hopefully they continue such work, and not move into such areas like trying to get certain theories banned from school, etc.

Flamed Diving

Zillah wrote: »

I have never ever understood why a God that exists would be so obsessed with people believing in it. If He were real it wouldn't even be an issue.

Imagine if we never saw Barrack Obama, but that the White House staff constantly released statements saying that he was the President and that it was very important for people to believe that he was the President. Wouldn't that be a little suspicious?

On the flip side, we do in fact see Obama quite frequently and he has never once proclaimed that believing he is the President is in any way important...it's a total non-issue.

Good point. How can anyone believe in this nonsense?

Tim Robbins

Húrin wrote: »

Well I don't believe in hell but I think this would be a bad reason to not worship the creator of the universe. It would be a bad reason because you're more likely to be wrong about morality than said creator.

That makes no sense.

Sam Vimes

I think he's talking about Pascal's wager

Flamed Diving

Sam Vimes wrote: »

I think he's talking about Pascal's wager

Probably one of the most flawed concepts I have ever encountered. How has it lasted this long, I will never understand.

The Mad Hatter

OT, but, Jakkass, would you really teach your child that they'll go to gaol if they steal?

I would tell them that stealing is wrong because it hurts other people.

Sam Vimes

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Probably one of the most flawed concepts I have ever encountered. How has it lasted this long, I will never understand.

Remember who we're dealing with here

These are the same people who, with a straight face, put forward the argument that God must exist because we can imagine him and existing is greater than not existing.

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

OT, but, Jakkass, would you really teach your child that they'll go to gaol if they steal?

I would tell them that stealing is wrong because it hurts other people.

Me too. Is it even morality if you're only doing it to avoid consequences for yourself? I'd call that self-preservation.

Dades

Sam Vimes wrote: »

These are the same people who, with a straight face, put forward the argument that God must exist because we can imagine him and existing is greater than not existing.

Yes, but at least that second one can be shown mathematically:

Existing > Not Existing

ergo, God exists!

kiffer

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

OT, but, Jakkass, would you really teach your child that they'll go to gaol if they steal?

I would tell them that stealing is wrong because it hurts other people.

That's not going to work now is it... Countless mothers on Irish busses wouldn't be telling their sugar filled progeny to behave or The Man will come and put them off the bus then would they...
They'd just say something like don't throw gum at that man... It'll get in his hair, remember that time you got gum in your hair?... You wouldn't want like that would you?
But trying to get the child to empathise with people is hard ... It's so unnatural for most humans to feel for other people... No wait... Strike that... It's easy and automatic for most people, children included although children can be somewhat more short sighted... Much like adults but with out the experience.

Throwing things is fun... They don't think of the end result for others. You can either try to teach them the end result in terms that make sense to them... Or you can make an appeal to fear. The man will come... Bus drivers are a jerks that put you off the bus for having fun rather than you might upset/harm someone by your actions.

I'm ranting now amn't I? Under 3 hours sleep and after a few red bulls have left me slightly bleh. What do I know i'm sure my kids will be little hellions... just to make up for my well behaved childhood...


.

philologos

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

OT, but, Jakkass, would you really teach your child that they'll go to gaol if they steal?

I would tell them that stealing is wrong because it hurts other people.

It appears that certain people like to answer this question for me on this thread.

I would teach my child that theft is wrong because it is defrauding another in society, it is taking what does not belong to you. I would probably back up this with Christian scripture and fit this into our understanding of God's authority.

However, I probably would also teach my child that society has penalties for these things. There are consequences to ones actions, and one will be held accountable, and justice will win over lawlessness in the vast majority of cases. Likewise, I would also say that God has penalties for these things in the hereafter if people are not held to account by secular authorities, but also that God offers mercy, and a path that people can change their ways.

Tim Robbins

Jakkass wrote: »

It appears that certain people like to answer this question for me on this thread.

I would teach my child that theft is wrong because it is defrauding another in society, it is taking what does not belong to you. I would probably back up this with Christian scripture and fit this into our understanding of God's authority.

However, I probably would also teach my child that society has penalties for these things. There are consequences to ones actions, and one will be held accountable, and justice will win over lawlessness in the vast majority of cases. Likewise, I would also say that God has penalties for these things in the hereafter if people are not held to account by secular authorities, but also that God offers mercy, and a path that people can change their ways.

Would you also point out:
- that there are very strong arguments for God being a delusion
- the majority of intellectuals do not believe in God
- the rest of the human population is split into groups which disagree on which God exists and how he should be obeyed
- that humans can sometimes be convinced what they believe in is correct but then realise they were wrong
- ergo your beliefs about God may be categorically incorrect

Flamed Diving

Jakkass wrote: »

It appears that certain people like to answer this question for me on this thread.

I would teach my child that theft is wrong because it is defrauding another in society, it is taking what does not belong to you. I would probably back up this with Christian scripture and fit this into our understanding of God's authority.

However, I probably would also teach my child that society has penalties for these things. There are consequences to ones actions, and one will be held accountable, and justice will win over lawlessness in the vast majority of cases. Likewise, I would also say that God has penalties for these things in the hereafter if people are not held to account by secular authorities, but also that God offers mercy, and a path that people can change their ways.

They are still not comparable.

I will make this as simple as possible.

Secular society offers redemption, ex post.

God offers redemption, ex ante.

Secular society punishs misbehaviour, but allows the perp a second chance (most of the time). The punishment is to teach a lesson.

God punishs misbehaviour, but offers no second chance after punishment. The punishment is for punishments sake, not for teaching a lesson.

I don't care what way you twist the square peg, those are the facts.

Flamed Diving

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you also point out:
- that there are very strong arguments for God being a delusion
- the majority of intellectuals do not believe in God
- the rest of the human population is split into groups which disagree on which God exists and how he should be obeyed
- that humans can sometimes be convinced what they believe in is correct but then realise they were wrong
- ergo your beliefs about God may be categorically incorrect

Doubtful.

kiffer

Sorry Jakkass forgot the format of the thread was Jakkass Q&A... Will not direct comments to or address comments by anyone else again in this thread...

So anyway back on topic... This new church... It has it's own recording studio... Maybe studiorat could get a job there and spy for us...
Then we'd know more about what's going on.

kiffer

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Secular society punishs misbehaviour, but allows the perp a second chance (most of the time). The punishment is to teach a lesson.

Ideally... But it also removes people for the safety of others... Fines them to address the cost of damage done... But it's a human system and not always what it should be... Resources are tight and people make mistakes...
Prisons get over crowded... And so on. Ideally the system would act work on a number of levels...

Flamed Diving

kiffer wrote: »

Ideally... But it also removes people for the safety of others... Fines them to address the cost of damage done... But it's a human system and not always what it should be... Resources are tight and people make mistakes...
Prisons get over crowded... And so on. Ideally the system would act work on a number of levels...

Ok, but I am talking in ideals.

philologos

Tim Robbins wrote: »

Would you also point out:
- that there are very strong arguments for God being a delusion
- the majority of intellectuals do not believe in God
- the rest of the human population is split into groups which disagree on which God exists and how he should be obeyed
- that humans can sometimes be convinced what they believe in is correct but then realise they were wrong
- ergo your beliefs about God may be categorically incorrect

1. I don't believe the arguments are strong for God being any form of a delusion.

2. I'd need statistics.

3. Yes, I would teach that other people follow different religions.

4. Obviously.

5. I would teach that other people teach different things, but ultimately that there is a strong case for the Judeo-Christian God, and I probably would bring any child I had to church to experience it for themselves.