Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Future of International Rugby

Options
124»

Comments

  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    221009.jpg England lock Simon Shaw believes the drive for rugby players to become bigger and stronger has seen skill sacrificed and 'gym monkeys' emerge.
    Shaw insists the sport is suffering from the emphasis on size over technique as England prepares for its autumn schedule without six certain starters, all lost to injury.
    The absentees include an entire front row and an alarming number of shoulder injuries, reigniting the debate over player welfare that raged during a brutal Lions tour to South Africa just four months ago.
    It has been suggested that the human body is struggling to meet the demands of the modern game, particularly in the tackle area.
    Shaw (pictured), himself returning from a fractured metatarsal and likely to miss England's first two tests against Australia and Argentina, has called for a rethink.
    "There is an argument that people are spending too much time in the gym, creating more of an athlete than a rugby player," said the 36-year-old Lion, who hopes to be fit to face New Zealand on November 21.
    "But there is a limit to how far you can stretch your body. There's a lot of pressure, especially on the young guys coming through, to be fitter, stronger and faster. That in turn makes them train harder in the gym to be physically stronger than the player who is currently holding that position.
    "But they should look at guys like Lawrence Dallaglio and Serge Betsen. Betsen is not the strongest man in the world, he doesn't lift a lot of weights. He's not even the fittest guy on the training pitch. But when he goes out playing he never stops, he's got an incredible engine. Lawrence as well was never that great in the gym. We shouldn't be trying to create gym monkeys with technique, we should be trying to create rugby players. We should be looking more at the skill side of the game rather than the physical. I hope we don't go down the route of using American football style padding.
    "The subtleties of the game are still there and we should be looking at them a bit more."
    Premier Rugby Ltd, the umbrella organisation for the 12 Guinness Premiership clubs, keeps detailed statistics on injury levels dating back to 2002.
    Up until the 2007-08 season the numbers remained static - last term's figures are being collated - yet that will prove scant consolation to Martin Johnson as he considers his dwindling options.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Goose81 wrote: »
    Anyone else wish the whole world had adopted the ELV's that they used in the SH?

    Quick tap penalties etc

    eh...no


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    221009.jpg England lock Simon Shaw believes the drive for rugby players to become bigger and stronger has seen skill sacrificed and 'gym monkeys' emerge.

    Shaw insists the sport is suffering from the emphasis on size over technique as England prepares for its autumn schedule without six certain starters, all lost to injury.

    The absentees include an entire front row and an alarming number of shoulder injuries, reigniting the debate over player welfare that raged during a brutal Lions tour to South Africa just four months ago.
    It has been suggested that the human body is struggling to meet the demands of the modern game, particularly in the tackle area.
    Shaw (pictured), himself returning from a fractured metatarsal and likely to miss England's first two tests against Australia and Argentina, has called for a rethink.

    "There is an argument that people are spending too much time in the gym, creating more of an athlete than a rugby player," said the 36-year-old Lion, who hopes to be fit to face New Zealand on November 21.
    "But there is a limit to how far you can stretch your body. There's a lot of pressure, especially on the young guys coming through, to be fitter, stronger and faster. That in turn makes them train harder in the gym to be physically stronger than the player who is currently holding that position.

    "But they should look at guys like Lawrence Dallaglio and Serge Betsen. Betsen is not the strongest man in the world, he doesn't lift a lot of weights. He's not even the fittest guy on the training pitch. But when he goes out playing he never stops, he's got an incredible engine. Lawrence as well was never that great in the gym. We shouldn't be trying to create gym monkeys with technique, we should be trying to create rugby players. We should be looking more at the skill side of the game rather than the physical. I hope we don't go down the route of using American football style padding.
    "The subtleties of the game are still there and we should be looking at them a bit more."

    Premier Rugby Ltd, the umbrella organisation for the 12 Guinness Premiership clubs, keeps detailed statistics on injury levels dating back to 2002.
    Up until the 2007-08 season the numbers remained static - last term's figures are being collated - yet that will prove scant consolation to Martin Johnson as he considers his dwindling options.

    Regarding your title, do you realistically think he should stay light and still try and play the sport?

    He makes a valid point.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    Regarding your title, do you realistically think he should stay light and still try and play the sport?

    He makes a valid point.
    no no,its just a playful jibe that he is a man mountain himself.the content of the article itself is spot on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    We are what 5 matches into the international series and we have yet to see one great match (And don't say France vs SA it was just a glorified 80 minute fight between both sides).

    The formula is the same for each match, priority number is to be defending inside your opponents half and win a defensive penalty. The fact is attacking coaches are all playing out of the same book, crash ball up the 10/12 channel hoping they get over the gain line then immediately go wide. This tactic actually works well at Club and Provincial level where you ll either find mismatches or get over the gain line but what we are seeing time and time again at this level is just a wave of defenders pushing the attackers back and slowing the ball down.

    Kicking is just a result of having no other option in attack, when defenses are too good you don't want to be the one in possession of the ball. Everyone here hopes that tomorrow's match will be different and will be the talk of the Rugby community but realistically i think it ll end up following the trend. Sadly the standard of international rugby defence is too high, even for the best of teams.


  • Advertisement
  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    Stev_o wrote: »
    We are what 5 matches into the international series and we have yet to see one great match (And don't say France vs SA it was just a glorified 80 minute fight between both sides).

    The formula is the same for each match, priority number is to be defending inside your opponents half and win a defensive penalty. The fact is attacking coaches are all playing out of the same book, crash ball up the 10/12 channel hoping they get over the gain line then immediately go wide. This tactic actually works well at Club and Provincial level where you ll either find mismatches or get over the gain line but what we are seeing time and time again at this level is just a wave of defenders pushing the attackers back and slowing the ball down.

    Kicking is just a result of having no other option in attack, when defenses are too good you don't want to be the one in possession of the ball. Everyone here hopes that tomorrow's match will be different and will be the talk of the Rugby community but realistically i think it ll end up following the trend. Sadly the standard of international rugby defence is too high, even for the best of teams.
    its dying a death alright. new zealand could only score one against italy.england argentina is a organised brawl.as i type banahan scores but it has been piss poor in fairness


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Stev_o wrote: »
    We are what 5 matches into the international series and we have yet to see one great match (And don't say France vs SA it was just a glorified 80 minute fight between both sides).

    The formula is the same for each match, priority number is to be defending inside your opponents half and win a defensive penalty. The fact is attacking coaches are all playing out of the same book, crash ball up the 10/12 channel hoping they get over the gain line then immediately go wide. This tactic actually works well at Club and Provincial level where you ll either find mismatches or get over the gain line but what we are seeing time and time again at this level is just a wave of defenders pushing the attackers back and slowing the ball down.

    Kicking is just a result of having no other option in attack, when defenses are too good you don't want to be the one in possession of the ball. Everyone here hopes that tomorrow's match will be different and will be the talk of the Rugby community but realistically i think it ll end up following the trend. Sadly the standard of international rugby defence is too high, even for the best of teams.

    That's not true at all. France's scrummaging and backline play were superb. I didn't expect too much from the England or Italy matches. I thought the Wales-NZ match was the only one that disappointed


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    That's not true at all. France's scrummaging and backline play were superb. I didn't expect too much from the England or Italy matches. I thought the Wales-NZ match was the only one that disappointed
    in fairness i dont know how you can not acknoledge that rugby as we know it is in trouble.

    when you see traille being picked at fullback you know exactly the mindset


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    Fecking RTE looking at this thread for something to talk about when they go to the studio >_>


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    in fairness i dont know how you can not acknoledge that rugby as we know it is in trouble.

    when you see traille being picked at fullback you know exactly the mindset

    I never said it wasn't although I do think you're over reacting. I'm just saying I wouldn;t be expecting an England or Italy match to be a classic.

    It's not solely down to kicking imo. Look at today. Fair enough giving a guy his first cap, but alongside McCalister and Ellis? These guys are simply nowhere near the standard we've come to expect from New Zealand.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 9,249 ✭✭✭Stev_o


    I never said it wasn't although I do think you're over reacting. I'm just saying I wouldn;t be expecting an England or Italy match to be a classic.

    It's not solely down to kicking imo. Look at today. Fair enough giving a guy his first cap, but alongside McCalister and Ellis? These guys are simply nowhere near the standard we've come to expect from New Zealand.

    But New Zealand have yet to produce anything worth mentioning this year. This is twice they'v failed to really put Italy away (which is a credit to Italy) but that should of been a match where they should of won on tries not by the boot of McAllister's boot. They showed no invention or creativity they are going by the trend like everyone else by playing the percentages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Stev_o wrote: »
    But New Zealand have yet to produce anything worth mentioning this year. This is twice they'v failed to really put Italy away (which is a credit to Italy) but that should of been a match where they should of won on tries not by the boot of McAllister's boot. They showed no invention or creativity they are going by the trend like everyone else by playing the percentages.

    But it's not always been for lack of trying. They ran the ball quite a bit against the Boks if I remember correctly but errors cost them the game. Nonu hasn't been great this season and Carter hasn't played much. I really think it's more to do with the players than the tactics.

    However it's a different story with Ireland and Wales.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,772 ✭✭✭toomevara


    Interesting piece by Paul Rees from today's Guardian;
    What's gone wrong with Rugby Union?

    When the International Rugby Board's game analysis unit compiled its reports on the Six Nations and Tri-Nations tournaments earlier this year, it found that the two winners, Ireland and South Africa, had one factor in common: a low-risk strategy by passing the ball less than their rivals. Kicking has become the zeitgeist of the modern game and, as IRB members gather in Dublin next week, they are under pressure to give the sport a stimulus even though there is a moratorium on law changes until after the 2011 World Cup.

    Statistics paint a damning picture of professional rugby union. England have been condemned this month for not scoring tries but in the 10 internationals so far involving tier-one countries, the Six Nations sides have managed eight tries between them (three scored by Wales against Argentina) while the Tri-Nations teams have run in 13 (four supplied by South Africa against Italy). Including Argentina's try this autumn, it adds up to an average of 2.2 tries per match and followed an average of 3.0 in the Tri-Nations, the lowest for nine years, and 3.7 in the Six Nations, which was down from 4.3 in 2007. There were 65 kicks a match in the Six Nations and 60 in the Tri-Nations.

    A number of leading coaches have in recent months spoken of their despair at the ugliness of so many matches with aerial ping-pong dominating as players fear taking the ball into contact and being penalised. The experimental law variations, which were trialled last season, were designed to encourage running rugby but they were so numerous that not all were tested everywhere and the IRB undermined them by issuing referees with a directive to police attacking sides closely at the breakdown. The result was an explosion in kicking.

    "Traditional fans are now questioning the game because of the laws," said the New Zealand coach, Graham Henry. "The consequences of doing nothing about this, certainly in the southern hemisphere, are serious because we do not have the population numbers. Sides don't take risks and pass the ball because the rules make them scared of giving away penalties. The rule makers have to revisit this."

    Entertainment was a feature of the Guinness Premiership in 2007-08, the season before the ELVs were introduced and a comparison of the first eight rounds of the campaign then with the current one shows a marked decline in the number of tries being scored (see graphic, below). Ten games this season have ended without a try, five involving Leicester. Two years ago Bath averaged more than three tries a game and often ran from behind their own posts but this season the figure is down to 1.4.

    London Irish are probably the most ambitious side in the Premiership but they have managed only one try in their last three league matches. "There needs to be a balance between attack and defence at the breakdown," said their head coach, Toby Booth. "Until then you will see kicking and error-strewn performances. I don't want to be a part of it, to be honest, but those are the conditions we are under." The Sale director of rugby, Kingsley Jones, is equally concerned. "I've loved rugby all my life but for the first time in the last few weeks I've turned games off at half-time to go and cut the grass," he said.

    It is at the breakdown that the running game is breaking down. The IRB resolved to emphasise the contest for possession in the tackle area after years of attacking sides being virtually guaranteed possession: Australia became renowned for taking play through multiple phases without going anywhere and there was nothing defences could do about it.

    "I do not think it is all doom and gloom," said the IRB's referees' manager, Paddy O'Brien. "We had two terrific Test matches this month between France and South Africa and Ireland and Australia. If teams with the ball don't get the numbers into the breakdown, they're vulnerable because teams are now so good at getting their hands on the ball. Someone will unlock the door one day and it will evolve."

    South Africa have not complained. hey have been the most successful side this year, beating the Lions and then winning the Tri-Nations. Yet in the first Test against the Lions they made 49 passes as a team: the visiting scrum-half, Mike Phillips, gave 76 passes. In the Tri-Nations the Springboks won two matches with only 39% of possession and in one of them, against New Zealand, they made 43 passes in all and their two centres touched the ball eight times compared with their opponents' 43. The All Blacks' front row made three times as many passes as South Africa's three-quarters and full-back combined while in the Six Nations Ireland were bottom in the number of passes made and the rate of passing. The moral is low risk, great reward.

    Premiership-rugby-graphic-001.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    English media when England lose a string of games: the game is buggered. Same in Cricket (too much one-day, tours too long blah blah). . . soccer (too many foreigners, too many games, the ref! etc etc). . . rugby league (overseas players in super league, coach not British and various other b*ll*cks).
    When they win? Not a peep.

    Grow a pair Fleet St.


  • Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    That article sums it all up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    Justind wrote: »
    English media when England lose a string of games: the game is buggered. Same in Cricket (too much one-day, tours too long blah blah). . . soccer (too many foreigners, too many games, the ref! etc etc). . . rugby league (overseas players in super league, coach not British and various other b*ll*cks).
    When they win? Not a peep.

    Grow a pair Fleet St.
    in fairness graham henry ,robbie deans,and a load of us who started this thread think the game is broken!!!!!http://www.allblacks.com/news/11745/Legend-hits-out-at-laws
    here is a link to an article by WELSH legend gerald davies who echoes the sentiments above.
    as much as i love to bash the english,they aint alone in their gripes with the current laws


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 943 ✭✭✭OldJay


    in fairness graham henry ,robbie deans,and a load of us who started this thread think the game is broken!!!!!http://www.allblacks.com/news/11745/Legend-hits-out-at-laws
    here is a link to an article by WELSH legend gerald davies who echoes the sentiments above.
    as much as i love to bash the english,they aint alone in their gripes with the current laws

    I wasn't England-bashing either.
    The professional game is struggling in NZ and Australia and now the England national side are suffering too.
    NZ fans long for a RWC (and also lost three times to Sth Africa), Aussie long for a tournament win and England long for a win. Hardly surprising to hear punditry as you describe.
    I guarantee you if these sides were doing well, the press would be too busy fawning over them to give a stuff about the laws of the game.

    As for Gerald Davies, the days are long gone when a skinful of grog the night before a game and a half-time cigarette were acceptable. In other words, the game changed well before any talk of law variations post-Stellenbosch.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    scotland,wales,ireland,france

    not a try scored between them in 320 minutes of rugby today


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,255 ✭✭✭anonymous_joe


    scotland,wales,ireland,france

    not a try scored between them in 320 minutes of rugby today

    And some of the world's best attacking talent plays for some of those teams.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,783 ✭✭✭handsomecake


    And some of the world's best attacking talent plays for some of those teams.
    exactly,so what does it say about the current set of laws/trends


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    Just reading back over some older posts in this thread along the lines of "Would you rather see your team play boring and win or play exciting and lose?". We all know the answer to that, but it's irrelevant. What's needed is to make it more likely that expansive, good-to-watch play wins games. What rule changes could be made? Dropping penalties to 2 points and DGs to 2 or possibly 1 would be the most obvious idea. I don't like the idea of marks outside the 22 though.

    Up til this year if there was any way to catch a match I would, now unless Ireland are involved I might happen to have it on in the background. Success is bringing more fans in Ireland but Ireland isn't the game overall.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,828 ✭✭✭gosplan


    scotland,wales,ireland,france

    not a try scored between them in 320 minutes of rugby today


    That really has very little to do with the discussion. Between them, they conceeded 11.

    France would have loved a try but they couldn't get out of their own half. If anything they completely went against the current trend, running from their own 22, playing high risk rugby.

    Ireland were up against the world's best defence.

    Wales were off form and simply outmatched and never would Scotland vrs Argentina be a high scoring game.


Advertisement