Irish Open 2010 - Structure

BigCityBanker

Ive been getting alot of questions about the IO 2010 structure so decided I might as well put it up here for all to see and get some feedback

Points of note

• Starting stack remains at 10,000
• Official introduction of 1200/2400 and 2500/5000 levels
• 75 minutes from Level 7 onwards

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Level Small Blind Big Blind Ante Clock
1 25 50 60
2 50 100 60
3 75 150 60
4 100 200 60
5 150 300 60
6 150 300 25 60
7 200 400 25 75
8 300 600 50 75
9 400 800 50 75
10 500 1000 50 75
11 600 1200 100 75
12 800 1600 100 75
13 1000 2000 200 75
14 1200 2400 200 75
15 1500 3000 300 75
16 2000 4000 400 75
17 2500 5000 500 75
18 3000 6000 500 75
19 4000 8000 500 75
20 5000 10000 1000 75
21 6000 12000 1000 75
22 8000 16000 1500 75
23 10000 20000 2000 75
24 12000 24000 2000 75
25 15000 30000 3000 75
26 20000 40000 3000 75
27 25000 50000 3000 75
28 30000 60000 4000 75
29 40000 80000 4000 75
30 50000 100000 5000 75
31 60000 120000 10000 75
32 75000 150000 10000 75

mickste

I'm glad to see structure improvements Noel. Nice one.

DAMO72

Hi Noel , Im probably not the right person to comment on this as i haven't played an open yet. While Its great to see the blinds increase and the extra levels added , i think it would be a lot more appealing to punters to get the starting stack increased also. Just my opinion and i do hope to play in 2010

gazman59

i agree i think its the only thing stopping this being one of the best tourneys in europe! if we got the 15k starting stack i think it would appeal to a lot more players.

big_iain

wow, great structure. those jumps in any tournamnet are so big if you are shortstacked this can only offer the players more play. thumbs up.

mdwexford

Good to see some improvements.

Same kinda clock as the EPT this season.

No talk of upping the starting stack to 15k or going with the 30k stack and blinds start at 50-100 like the WSOP and EPT?

Mr. Wolf

Great structure, well done on the improvements, will it be the same price entry as last year Noel?

Flipper

Huge improvement. Needs a 20k stack though... Would be an awesome tourney then

BigCityBanker

Mr. Wolf wrote: »

will it be the same price entry as last year Noel?

yes - same entry as last year.

ollyk1

If by some fluke I end up playing it I'll appreciate the efforts to improve the structure. WP

P.S. Can we maybe get somebody to maintain a list of all boardsies playing just so we know who to bet on this year??? lol

kakak1

BigCityBanker wrote: »

yes - same entry as last year.

Firstly great to see an improvement.

Perhaps I'm missing something here Noel but if almost all the people on here were rooting for an improved structure & most seem to agree on a 15k / 20k starting stack what are PP's reasons for not doing so. Is it a time problem or would it mean less players in the side events or on the cash tables. I would have thought it was a very simple decision....................

Warper

Ya the main thing is the starting stack - it needs to be increased to 20k. If its a time constraints issue just leave the whole tourney at a 60min clock.

oneillMan999

yes i agree 15k startin stack would make for a better all round tournament, but as said before, PP wants people to play their ridicously over-raked cash games!

No reccession at the paddy power camp :rolleyes:

BigCityBanker

kakak1 wrote: »

Firstly great to see an improvement.

ty

kakak1 wrote: »

Perhaps I'm missing something here Noel but if almost all the people on here were rooting for an improved structure & most seem to agree on a 15k / 20k starting stack what are PP's reasons for not doing so.

its complicated and ultimately will never be discussed by me or any PPP staff on here.

kakak1 wrote: »

Is it a time problem or would it mean less players in the side events or on the cash tables.

knock on effect on side games didnt come into the discussion really - better structure = more players = more to go around. I am also comfortable on time issues.

kakak1 wrote: »

I would have thought it was a very simple decision....................

I would have thought something similar.

Warper wrote: »

Ya the main thing is the starting stack - it needs to be increased to 20k. If its a time constraints issue just leave the whole tourney at a 60min clock.

I really take issue with comments like this - moslty because it shows a pretty blatant lack of understanding of tournament structures. Its akin to the minister for finance saying that we need more money in the coffers and are therefore introducing 80% income tax rate without consideration for the likely offshoots of this decision..

There are other factors at play and starting stack is just one of the 3 major influences on structure. Personally, I would take additional time over additional starting stack any day of the week - the longer a good player has to exert his edge over his opponents the better off he is.

A bad player will always be a bad player so it doesnt really matter if you give them 10k, 15k, 20k or 100k for that matter. The more chips they have the more bad calls they make preflop, the more they are forced to play through the streets where there weaknesses will be exposed and they will just end up losing all their chips regardless.

NewApproach

Good stuff BCB.

Nice to know bigbatpat might get some sleep now!

kakak1

BigCityBanker wrote: »

its complicated and ultimately will never be discussed by me or any PPP staff on here.

I don't want to get into an argument here but really that is a very very strange answer. If you say you or any PPP staff will not discuss it here you have obviously discussed among yourselves your policy with regard to Boards.

If you're willing to receive free advertising & discussion of your event on Boards I really feel someone from PP should be able / willing to answer a simple question " Why not increase the blinds to 15k / 20k".

There's absolutely nothing complicated about it, unless of course PP have something they don't want us to know ..................:eek::eek:

BigCityBanker

kakak1 wrote: »

I If you say you or any PPP staff will not discuss it here you have obviously discussed among yourselves your policy with regard to Boards.

we dont have a policy with regard to boards - other than me trying not to be obnoxious, irate and abusive - thankfully this isnt written into my contract though and I cant be held accountable for my failings!

Why it wont be discussed is due to the simple fact that PPP are only one of the stakeholders involved and like all aspects of our business I or the rest of the team will not find ourselves in a position where we discuss the contents of a private business meeting which we had with our external vendors on a public forum.

if you want an exact answer to your question

kakak1 wrote: »

Why not increase the blinds to 15k / 20k

then the answer is that we discussed it and decided against it. If you should know the topic of 15k starting stack was never broght to the table as a specific request from any party.

As a matter of interest - do people have a preference for the IO or the IWF structure? The IO has an extra level 2500/5000 and extra time from L7 onwards - personally I prefer the IO but I would be interested in hearing other peopls opinions.

Warper

BigCityBanker wrote: »

ty



its complicated and ultimately will never be discussed by me or any PPP staff on here.




knock on effect on side games didnt come into the discussion really - better structure = more players = more to go around. I am also comfortable on time issues.



I would have thought something similar.



I really take issue with comments like this - moslty because it shows a pretty blatant lack of understanding of tournament structures. Its akin to the minister for finance saying that we need more money in the coffers and are therefore introducing 80% income tax rate without consideration for the likely offshoots of this decision..
There are other factors at play and starting stack is just one of the 3 major influences on structure. Personally, I would take additional time over additional starting stack any day of the week - the longer a good player has to exert his edge over his opponents the better off he is.

A bad player will always be a bad player so it doesnt really matter if you give them 10k, 15k, 20k or 100k for that matter. The more chips they have the more bad calls they make preflop, the more they are forced to play through the streets where there weaknesses will be exposed and they will just end up losing all their chips regardless.

That is just laughable.

A 10k starting stack in major tournaments is becoming a thing of the past. Most of the major tournaments have realised this and have listened to players feedback. The EPT have changed their entire structure for next season - from a 10k stack to a 30k stack as they actually listen to players. I thought Rip-off Ireland was a thing of the past.

The Irish Open is a great tournament with a great history and is Ireland's No. 1 tournament. But your sort of arrogant attitude just doesn't cut it.

kakak1

BigCityBanker wrote: »

Why it wont be discussed is due to the simple fact that PPP are only one of the stakeholders involved and like all aspects of our business I or the rest of the team will not find ourselves in a position where we discuss the contents of a private business meeting which we had with our external vendors on a public forum.

if you want an exact answer to your question

then the answer is that we discussed it and decided against it. If you should know the topic of 15k starting stack was never broght to the table as a specific request from any party.

I didn't ask for the gory or otherwise details of your "private business meeting" I asked why, what to me looked like a simple decision, the starting stack was not increased to 15k / 20k as was requested by many of your customers & to be given the answer " we discussed it and decided against it" is really telling me, a customer, to fck off & mind your own business. It's not what I would call " an exact answer to your question"

I would like to see your companies mission statement & I doubt very much it includes "customer satisfaction"

ITT-Pat

Warper wrote: »

That is just laughable.

What is just laughable? The part of BCB's post which you have highlighted is very important. You said you'd prefer more chips and less time on the clock, imo this shows you do lack an understanding of tournament structures to a degree. This is what BCB was pointing out. Far from laughable

oneillMan999

Warper wrote: »

That is just laughable.

A 10k starting stack in major tournaments is becoming a thing of the past. Most of the major tournaments have realised this and have listened to players feedback. The EPT have changed their entire structure for next season - from a 10k stack to a 30k stack as they actually listen to players. I thought Rip-off Ireland was a thing of the past.

The Irish Open is a great tournament with a great history and is Ireland's No. 1 tournament. But your sort of arrogant attitude just doesn't cut it.

Agreed, we all know the irish open is europes longest running tournament, but lets move with the times...the WSOP main event being a perfect example!

You talk about investors etc but surely PP have the final say on structure details?? If not, then i seriuosly hope the irish open sponsorship will change hands in the near future.

BigCityBanker

kakak1 wrote: »

I didn't ask for the gory or otherwise details of your "private business meeting" I asked why, what to me looked like a simple decision, the starting stack was not increased to 15k / 20k as was requested by many of your customers & to be given the answer " we discussed it and decided against it" is really telling me, a customer, to fck off & mind your own business. It's not what I would call " an exact answer to your question"

I would like to see your companies mission statement & I doubt very much it includes "customer satisfaction"

give me an honest estimation of just how many of the people who cry for more chips will buy into the IO with their own hard cash?

I disagree that we are really telling a customer to fck off but to some extent I am saying mind your own business - you do understand that these two points are mutually exclusive and can exist independently?

bops

everybody wants a bigger starting stack, ie 20k - it seems to be the norm now for big tournaments (eg EPT, WSOP etc).

I find it hand to understand how you numbskulls had a meeting, where it is obv that everyone wants 20k, everyone will be happy, you'll get much more interest and therefore many more runners - which i would think is your goal??
...and ye go meh no

lol

kakak1

BigCityBanker wrote: »

give me an honest estimation of just how many of the people who cry for more chips will buy into the IO with their own hard cash?

I disagree that we are really telling a customer to fck off but to some extent I am saying mind your own business - you do understand that these two points are mutually exclusive and can exist independently?

This is unbelievable Noel. What the fck difference how they get into the IO. Are you saying because they get in for €5 or €100 or €250 that we don't have to give them value or what the punter wants. That is really great customer relations.

No when dealing with customers, & I did for over 30 years, they can't stand independently. You tell me as a customer to mind my own business, and if I'm playing the IO, it is my business you are in fact telling me to fck off..........and you said you try not to be arrogant..............you need to try a little harder cos you're coming across as very arrogant to me.

Unless your company PP has something to hide (& if you have I understand why you cannot explain or answer simple questions), get off the pot, cut the waffling & answer your customers questions when asked on a public forum that you choose to advertise your event on.......it's the least we deserve as customers.

roleynoley

Just have a look at the structure the macau had recently for their festival ME.Every1 is raving about it.People saying"best structure ive ever played"etc.20k stack is the way to go especially for irelands flagship tourney.Theres a 10k starting stack in the 100 fo tonight in there ffs.Get with the times and LISTEN to what we are all saying!!!!!!!!!

RichieLawlor

Less chips longer clock means more play when it matters. It's that simple.

Who cares about the numptys who want 20k so they can sit for ten hours and say they went deep in the Irish open. The best tournaments I've played have been in Vegas where almost all are small stack long clock.

Drop the starting stack to 8k and remove the 25-50 and 75-150 level and the players who get deep will see the benefits

BigCityBanker

kakak1 wrote: »

This is unbelievable Noel. What the fck difference how they get into the IO. Are you saying because they get in for €5 or €100 or €250 that we don't have to give them value or what the punter wants. That is really great customer relations. .

your missing the point completely.

kakak1 wrote: »

No when dealing with customers, & I did for over 30 years, they can't stand independently. You tell me as a customer to mind my own business, and if I'm playing the IO, it is my business you are in fact telling me to fck off..........and you said you try not to be arrogant..............you need to try a little harder cos you're coming across as very arrogant to me.

Unless your company PP has something to hide (& if you have I understand why you cannot explain or answer simple questions), get off the pot, cut the waffling & answer your customers questions when asked on a public forum that you choose to advertise your event on.......it's the least we deserve as customers.

Ive already covered why I wont discuss it. afaik we (PPP or any tournament organiser) are expected to answer all reasonable questions and I will continue to do so - Im going to need alot of convincing that your particular line of questioning falls under the 'reasonable' banner. If a mod wishes to instruct me to the contrary then I will deal with it as I see fit at that point in time.

robinblinds

The real crux of this issue is that the tournament has been alive since 1981 and therefore it is VERY difficult to change things that have been around and set in stone for a long time.

Please remember that other tournaments can be changed at the drop of a hat...a few hours notice in some cases.

This is an institutional tournament and its very being means it is very hard to change it, even though we all want it to change and improve for the better.

Dave (kakak1), believe me, the amount of work that has been done and will continue to be done on this is huge and never ending.

Maybe we need to somehow communicate this to the to the paying players a bit better.

My two cents is (as a player, if I was allowed to play in the event) that I would rather the IO 2010 structure to the new IWF structure.

BigCityBanker

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Less chips longer clock means more play when it matters. It's that simple.

Who cares about the numptys who want 20k so they can sit for ten hours and say they went deep in the Irish open. The best tournaments I've played have been in Vegas where almost all are small stack long clock.

Drop the starting stack to 8k and remove the 25-50 and 75-150 level and the players who get deep will see the benefits

Richie, you better take a screen shot of this in case I see sense and edit it out later toinightb but I agree with some of the points you make above.

connie147

BigCityBanker wrote: »

give me an honest estimation of just how many of the people who cry for more chips will buy into the IO with their own hard cash?

I disagree that we are really telling a customer to fck off but to some extent I am saying mind your own business - you do understand that these two points are mutually exclusive and can exist independently?

Hi Noel,
First of all, congratz on getting in the extra levels and extended clock from level 7 onwards. I know youve been wanting to improve the structures for quite a while so kudos for that.

On the stack size, I'm afraid I'm gonna be in agreement with others that I personally feel that 10k doesnt cut it for a tournament with the status and symbollism of the Irish Open. But then again, I'm not someone that travels all year buying into large buy-in events, so in fairness, I understand that others viewpoints carry more weight than mine. If I get to play in the tourney, it will be because I satt in to it.

I know we are blessed in this country with excellent structures for medium buy-in events, and long may that continue. But with Ireland having a great name for deepstacked value for money tourneys, is that not all the more reason that the Irish Open should be out there leading the way? Is there other models out foreign that ye are basing this 10k stack on?, or is it just that ye dont want to change a winning formula but improve it by adding levels and time on the clock?

Regardless, ye have made huge improvements. I would be interested in hearing opinions of players who do buy into EPT's and the like and find out does the stack size affect their decision?

Connie

tensevensuited

BigCityBanker wrote: »

Ive been getting alot of questions about the IO 2010 structure so decided I might as well put it up here for all to see and get some feedback

Points of note

• Starting stack remains at 10,000
• Official introduction of 1200/2400 and 2500/5000 levels
• 75 minutes from Level 7 onwards

---

---

---

---

---

Level Small Blind Big Blind Ante Clock
1 25 50 60
2 50 100 60
3 75 150 60
4 100 200 60
5 150 300 60
6 150 300 25 60
7 200 400 25 75
8 300 600 50 75
9 400 800 50 75
10 500 1000 50 75
11 600 1200 100 75
12 800 1600 100 75
13 1000 2000 200 75
14 1200 2400 200 75
15 1500 3000 300 75
16 2000 4000 400 75
17 2500 5000 500 75
18 3000 6000 500 75
19 4000 8000 500 75
20 5000 10000 1000 75
21 6000 12000 1000 75
22 8000 16000 1500 75
23 10000 20000 2000 75
24 12000 24000 2000 75
25 15000 30000 3000 75
26 20000 40000 3000 75
27 25000 50000 3000 75
28 30000 60000 4000 75
29 40000 80000 4000 75
30 50000 100000 5000 75
31 60000 120000 10000 75
32 75000 150000 10000 75

u posted this up 2 get feedback and now ur getting ur feedback.do ur customers feedback not matter or are u just being totaly ignorant to what
the customer has 2 say.basicaly this should be a 15k tournie,but ur basically telling us 2 fck off and mind ur our own business.do u not like
the feedback ur getting.

another point i find a little funny is u can post a structure for the io nearly 9 months in advance yet u only finalised the structre last week 4 the winter fest which happens in 2 months.

noel its about time u take customers seriously coz we r not fools.

ITT-Pat

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Less chips longer clock means more play when it matters. It's that simple.

Who cares about the numptys who want 20k so they can sit for ten hours and say they went deep in the Irish open. The best tournaments I've played have been in Vegas where almost all are small stack long clock.

I agree with all of this

robinblinds

The Irish Open reminds me of the Volkswagen Golf.

sickpuppy

10k with that clock is plenty of chips no harm in playing a few fcuking pots instead of waiting for kk aa for 12 hours.
There comes a time tournament when you have too gamble

last 10k chip event i played in galway was card dead for day 1 1010 being my best cards and i still had average stack having 5k extra chips wouldnt have made a differnece

roleynoley

If thats the case and its "set in stone"why are ye changing the structure atall then.Ill tell you why...because yere moving with the times which we all have to do.I can see what Richie is saying about the vegas tourneys etc.and its a good point.ie the better player will prob shine through.But if you change the time structure why not the stack??Wasnt the ME in vegas 30k this year??Was it always 30k??If that can change so can the IO.

robinblinds

Rocky! Rocky! Rocky!

BigCityBanker

tensevensuited wrote: »

u posted this up 2 get feedback and now ur getting ur feedback.do ur customers feedback not matter or are u just being totaly ignorant to what
the customer has 2 say.basicaly this should be a 15k tournie,but ur basically telling us 2 fck off and mind ur our own business.do u not like
the feedback ur getting..

im not for a moment saying that I dont like the feedback I am getting - dont worry - il be printign this thread and putting it under peoples noses and making sure they read it.

tensevensuited wrote: »

another point i find a little funny is u can post a structure for the io nearly 9 months in advance yet u only finalised the structre last week 4 the winter fest which happens in 2 months..

I dont get your humor here? go ahead and explain it to me though. I stated a month ago that we were meeting to agree structures - both structures were agreed at the same meeting. I published the IWF structures the same afternoon and said the IO one would follow. I hadnt intended in releasing this structure for a while yet but I had to do something to stop the PM's, phone calls, text messages and public inquisition I was getting when I stepped into either the SE or the Fitzwilliam.

The information was to hand and agreed upon by those concerned - I thought it was a reasonable step to make it public knowledge. I am open to suggestions to the contrary though?

tensevensuited wrote: »

noel its about time u take customers seriously coz we r not fools.

people should not for a minute think that I dont take this serious - I wish I could open up and tell the whole world just how serious I feel about this whole situation. Im not taking anyone for fools either.

Richie Lawlor touched on it above - more chips does not equal more play. There are games in Ireland that start with 15k or more chips and they quickly descend into a crapshoot.

kakak1

robinblinds wrote: »

The Irish Open reminds me of the Volkswagen Golf.

the 1981 Golf or a 2009 Golf cos there's some hell of a difference between the two.

You see V/W had the sense to move with the times.

Not too many 1981 Golf's running around is there ???

Russh

It's great to see these improvements for the IO....Well done....Those levels are coming in at just the right time...

As I saw it last year the avg stack with roughly 66 players left was approx. 15big blinds...(horrible)

Why not run a 75 min clock from the beginning.....

roleynoley

There are games in Ireland that start with 15k or more chips and they quickly descend into a crapshoot
Thats bull****!!+

kakak1

BigCityBanker wrote: »

your missing the point completely.

Would you care to explain it to me then.




This is a little like "they are all out of step except my Johnny"

BigCityBanker

Russh wrote: »

It's great to see these improvements for the IO....Well done....Those levels are coming in at just the right time...

As I saw it last year the avg stack with roughly 66 players left was approx. 15big blinds...(horrible)

Why not run a 75 min clock from the beginning.....

Chris,

The avg stack at the bubble of a tournament is not a fair reflection of any tournament. This the most serious inflection point in the tournament and given the number of players the avg stack will always go south and correct itself quickly in the level afterwards as all the shorties and hangers on push their short stacks - the starting stack will not change this. (if it was like the wsop where 700 players were trying to burst the bubble then the effect of the inflection point is not as severe)

roleynoley

sickpuppy wrote: »

10k with that clock is plenty of chips no harm in playing a few fcuking pots instead of waiting for kk aa for 12 hours.
There comes a time tournament when you have too gamble

last 10k chip event i played in galway was card dead for day 1 1010 being my best cards and i still had average stack having 5k extra chips wouldnt have made a differnece

Yore a rock!!!:))

Russh

BigCityBanker wrote: »

Chris,

The avg stack at the bubble of a tournament is not a fair reflection of any tournament. This the most serious inflection point in the tournament and given the number of players the avg stack will always go south and correct itself quickly in the level afterwards as all the shorties and hangers on push their short stacks - the starting stack will not change this. (if it was like the wsop where 700 players were trying to burst the bubble then the effect of the inflection point is not as severe)

Dont' mention bubbles to me...!:(

BigCityBanker

Russh wrote: »

Dont' mention bubbles to me...!:(

sorry Chris

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Glad to see some improvements coming through and it should help towards the business end of things.
I too am in the 15k/20k starting stack camp but I think it is more to do with punters being accustomed to bigger starting stacks and to some extent we have been spoilt with the tournament structures in Ireland over the last few years.
If you look at the annual tourneys at the €500 €1000 buyin level such as The Irish Masters, Deepstack, Macau, IPC and Killarney all these tourneys provide better structures than the IO provides us with. Simple fact is for a €3,500 buyin into a prestigious tourney such as the IO people expect a similar if not better structure than what they are accustomed to.
It would be great to see the starting stack increased!!

corkie123

robinblinds wrote: »

The real crux of this issue is that the tournament has been alive since 1981 and therefore it is VERY difficult to change things that have been around and set in stone for a long time.

Please remember that other tournaments can be changed at the drop of a hat...a few hours notice in some cases.

This is an institutional tournament and its very being means it is very hard to change it, even though we all want it to change and improve for the better.

Dave (kakak1), believe me, the amount of work that has been done and will continue to be done on this is huge and never ending.

Maybe we need to somehow communicate this to the to the paying players a bit better.

My two cents is (as a player, if I was allowed to play in the event) that I would rather the IO 2010 structure to the new IWF structure.

the wsop is a institutional tournement and they changed not one but twice in the last few years there structures to stop them becoming crap shoots 10k starting stacks for MAJOR TOURIES ARE LONG GONE get with it paddy powers and give your punters what they are asking for its called VALUE FOR THERE MONEY .

max_power

Yeah fair enough if they have whatever reasons for not wanting to make it a 15/20k starting stack, but using the fact that it's an "institutional tournament" for not changing the starting stack is a major cop out imo. It's not as if people would be outraged with the break in "tradition".

Ollieboy

Massive improvement as the extra levels will make a big difference at a key time of the tourney, the extra 15 mins is great but it really should be from the start as this is where the skillful players benefit when deeper stack.

I think a 10k stack is a massive mistake, the extra levels and time will give more play, but a extra 5k for each player will give a lot more chips in play at the bubble stages all the way to the final table.

I'm not really sure why Noel post this structure as he knew what sort of feedback he was going to get before posting it and how this forum was going to re-act.

In comparision to the IWF I always rather a longer clock.

I'm hoping this is the start of changes to the IO and in 2011 we'll see a 15k stack with a 20k in 2012. If that was the case I would be delight with the above changes and the direction that PPP and partners are taken the IO.

The_Chopper

Guys I echo what you're saying about the larger starting stack.

However read between the lines about what Noel is saying

pgodkin

Noel, please put startin stacks at a 100k this year and 20 min blind levels!!, simple given the fact that people dont understand tournies at all from what i can see!


great work lads will work hard on playin this year

Edit: please everyone stop shouting at PP and Noel hayes they have fck all power to change the IO really, dont forget there only payin for the event its the merrion that owns the rights to the IO