What are Traffic Lights there for???

seamus

petethedrummer wrote: »

And? So is jaywalking, but I think thats perfectly acceptable as long as you do it safely.

The point being Pete that there are plenty of situations in which it's perfectly safe to ignore a red light when you're driving a car/bus/motorbike as well. So why don't we?

Because ;
1. We're all human and liable to make mistakes and go when it's not safe
2. Most of our species are idiots.

While you might think it's safe for *you* to break the red, there are 10 others lacking the cop or presence of mind to do it safely.

A young Chinese man died this year after breaking a red light. I'm pretty sure he thought that it was perfectly safe and he had used common sense and had performed adequate safety checks.

So how in God's name do you propose that we decide who is "allowed" to break reds and who isn't - who has the cop on to do it safely and who doesn't? Or doesn't it just make more sense if everyone obeys them and avoids the chance of making a mistake and going when they shouldn't?

tunney

seamus wrote: »

The point being Pete that there are plenty of situations in which it's perfectly safe to ignore a red light when you're driving a car/bus/motorbike as well. So why don't we?

Because ;
1. We're all human and liable to make mistakes and go when it's not safe
2. Most of our species are idiots.

While you might think it's safe for *you* to break the red, there are 10 others lacking the cop or presence of mind to do it safely.

A young Chinese man died this year after breaking a red light. I'm pretty sure he thought that it was perfectly safe and he had used common sense and had performed adequate safety checks.

So how in God's name do you propose that we decide who is "allowed" to break reds and who isn't - who has the cop on to do it safely and who doesn't? Or doesn't it just make more sense if everyone obeys them and avoids the chance of making a mistake and going when they shouldn't?

There are certain junctions and certain lights that i will break and continue to break, whether or not guards are present, my safety first regardless of the legal position and i'm quite happy to defend my actions to a guard.

Lumen

If you can't cope with yielding to traffic then you shouldn't ever cross the road except at ped crossings.

Therefore RLJing itself is not a safety issue, only unsafe RLJing, i.e. like any other thing in life it should probably be done with concern for self preservation.

Which says nothing about legality or courtesy.

Gavin

tunney wrote: »

There are certain junctions and certain lights that i will break and continue to break, whether or not guards are present, my safety first regardless of the legal position and i'm quite happy to defend my actions to a guard.

Where are the junctions Tunney ? I suspect it's lack of confidence cycling in traffic and lack of experience which makes you think breaking a red light is necessary.

Tayto2000

seamus wrote: »

A young Chinese man died this year after breaking a red light. I'm pretty sure he thought that it was perfectly safe and he had used common sense and had performed adequate safety checks.

I thought he was killed by a left turning HGV? Being stuck on the inside of a HGV that has gone over the line and is blocking the cyclist ASL is a good time to reconsider whether it might be worth moving out of the way, regardless of the red light...

I'm a RLJer I admit it: I usually treat a red where I'm turning left as a flashing amber - if there's no vehicles or peds, I'll roll through at walking pace.

This is the flipside though:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/387025/cyclist-who-jumped-red-light-riding-like-a-bat-out-of-hell-jailed-for-killing-pedestrian.html

Lumen

Gavin wrote: »

Where are the junctions Tunney ? I suspect it's lack of confidence cycling in traffic and lack of experience which makes you think breaking a red light is necessary.

Nietzschean

Gavin wrote: »

Where are the junctions Tunney ? I suspect it's lack of confidence cycling in traffic and lack of experience which makes you think breaking a red light is necessary.

Hehe, i somehow doubt Tunney lacks confidence...

And speaking of times its safer, heading east along the canal where you can take the right to meet up with sussex road its probably safer to break the light before it. I generally don't break lights on my road bike, but honestly I'd say its more out of some sort of smugness than any sensible reason, god knows i used to break plenty when commuting(i mostly just cycle on road bike now...).

READYBREK

I've been stopped twice at the bottom of phoenix park, there are light but in fariness its looks like a sliproad with lights!

The Garda(motorbike) advised as a cyclists I operate by the same bye-laws as motorists and can therefore get points on my licence.

Can anyone advise if true?

Also, what if i dont have a drivers licence?

souter

el tonto wrote: »

I don´t think I´ve ever been in a situtation where I´ve found it safer to break a red.

There's one and only one light I break regularly. 4 way junction on Griffith Ave and Grace Park Rd, heading east. Generally pedestrians crossing Grace Park, rarely Griffith Ave, so on green man, providing no pedestrians or at giving them a wide berth I slowly cross the junction.
This gives me enough of a start to safely filter into postion for my right turn down Philipsburgh Ave. Not doing this means doing the same in the middle of fairly dense and fast moving traffic.
Yes, I can do it and I do if no pedestrian activated the crossing (or if a cop is present - coward!), but surely the first option is safer for me and less inconvenience for the cars?

Going the other way I never jump the light, there is no equivalent safety excuse.

Hm, lot of special pleading there. Maybe I'll obey this light to regain the moral summit rather than just the foothills.

BeerNut

Tayto2000 wrote: »

I thought he was killed by a left turning HGV?

From what I can gather he was killed going straight by a truck which also going straight, across him, and which was probably obscured to his view by the hump of the bridge. One or both of them was not heeding the lights.

Lumen

There's a junction near my house which I regularly jump on quiet weekend spins. I'm convinced it's solely activated by a loop in the road, because no matter how many tricks I attempt (placing a cleat on different parts of the loop, hopping up and down, spinning the cranks) the light stays red, for ever.

It could be that I have a warped sense of time and all my impatient tutting, cleating, hopping and spinning happens within the space of 15 seconds. I do drink a lot of coffee before weekend spins.

tunney

Gavin wrote: »

Where are the junctions Tunney ? I suspect it's lack of confidence cycling in traffic and lack of experience which makes you think breaking a red light is necessary.

Yes I'm very new to cycling and only just got my bike in the bike2work scheme. I got a lovely Trek, very nice and shiny, its a "compact" whatever that means. Had to get a Trek cause thats what Lance and Alberto ride and they are my heros.

blorg

tunney wrote: »

Yes I'm very new to cycling and only just got my bike in the bike2work scheme. I got a lovely Trek, very nice and shiny, its a "compact" whatever that means. Had to get a Trek cause thats what Lance and Alberto ride and they are my heros.

Did someone mention Lance?

Lumen

According to that picture, Lance only stops for a Bud Light.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

There's a junction near my house which I regularly jump on quiet weekend spins. I'm convinced it's solely activated by a loop in the road, because no matter how many tricks I attempt (placing a cleat on different parts of the loop, hopping up and down, spinning the cranks) the light stays red, for ever.

The lights at the top of Steeven's Lane in Dublin when I'm waiting to turn right down Bow Lane West seem to take about five minutes to change. It's the only set of lights I'm tempted to disobey. It's just ridiculously long. No-one should be left waiting that long to cross a minor junction.

Gavin

tunney wrote: »

Yes I'm very new to cycling and only just got my bike in the bike2work scheme. I got a lovely Trek, very nice and shiny, its a "compact" whatever that means. Had to get a Trek cause thats what Lance and Alberto ride and they are my heros.

Sure you can cycle a bike in 'races' or whatever, but that don't make you a commuter warrior Tunney. Where are these complex junctions ?

Actually, if you want, I'm sure I could cycle with you one day and show you how to do it.

blorg

Gavin wrote: »

Sure you can cycle a bike in 'races' or whatever, but that don't make you a commuter warrior Tunney. Where are these complex junctions ?

He doesn't cycle in proper races, only in "triathlons". Like this guy

tunney

Gavin wrote: »

Sure you can cycle a bike in 'races' or whatever, but that don't make you a commuter warrior Tunney. Where are these complex junctions ?

Actually, if you want, I'm sure I could cycle with you one day and show you how to do it.

Would you please? That would be great.

tomasrojo

Lumen wrote: »

There's a junction near my house which I regularly jump on quiet weekend spins. I'm convinced it's solely activated by a loop in the road, because no matter how many tricks I attempt (placing a cleat on different parts of the loop, hopping up and down, spinning the cranks) the light stays red, for ever.

I read, I think in Forester's Effective Cycling, that in the U.S. if a red light will not change it becomes legally equivalent to a Stop sign. That makes sense, I think. You shouldn't have to wait on a deserted road for a car to come along and trigger the induction loop.

eightyfish

What are these "traffic lights" you're all on about?

ednwireland

eightyfish wrote: »

What are these "traffic lights" you're all on about?

+1 nearest one to me is about 30 miles away

(but i did used to commute in the uk so seen a few, nottingham was always the best they had a bike weighted trigger in the road so a bike could trigger the lights, they also had them where cycle lanes crossed main roads so you could trigger the lights and then trackstand waiting for them to change)

Gavin

tunney wrote: »

Would you please? That would be great.

Cool ! What junction am I meeting you at ? Make sure to wear your helmet and some high viz so as I can identify you.

petethedrummer

seamus wrote: »

The point being Pete that there are plenty of situations in which it's perfectly safe to ignore a red light when you're driving a car/bus/motorbike as well. So why don't we?

Maybe we should. I wouldn't get all worked up about someone breaking one in a vehicle, under certain circumstances. Speeding up and breaking it just as it turns red does get my goat and I don't advocate this type of light breaking.

seamus wrote: »

While you might think it's safe for *you* to break the red, there are 10 others lacking the cop or presence of mind to do it safely. .

Then they shouldn't break the lights if they are not fit to decide if there is a car coming or not.

seamus wrote: »

A young Chinese man died this year after breaking a red light. I'm pretty sure he thought that it was perfectly safe and he had used common sense and had performed adequate safety checks. ?

Someone else answered this.

seamus wrote: »

So how in God's name do you propose that we decide who is "allowed" to break reds and who isn't - ?

The individual. Like when crossing a busy st when not near a pedestrian crossing. I have to cross the malahide road to get to the nearest bus stop and shop. Technically I should go to the nearest PED crossing but that would be lunacy if the road was perfectly clear.

seamus wrote: »

who has the cop on to do it safely

me, so far.

seamus wrote: »

Or doesn't it just make more sense if everyone obeys them and avoids the chance of making a mistake and going when they shouldn't?

Yes it makes perfect sense in one way. But my problem with lights is more a moral one. They should be the last choice in traffic calming when designing a junction. They create frustration, a sense of entitlement and enormous delays that I don't agree with. For cars, peds, buses and bikikles.

Most of my thoughts are covered in the bbc video and others on the subject.

p15574

petethedrummer wrote: »

And? So is jaywalking, but I think thats perfectly acceptable as long as you do it safely.

Since when was jaywalking illegal?

Regarding 'safely' breaking a red light, I'm sure every single cyclist killed on the roads thought they were 'safely' doing something, otherwise they would have acted differently, wouldn't they? Even if a truck or something was technically at fault, they might still look down and say 'if I was doing that again, I wouldn't stop inside a truck indicating left' or something.

I stop at every red light - even when they're not a junction, say with just a pedestrian light and no-one crossing, but then I treat it was a good excuse for a rest...

tunney

p15574 wrote: »

Since when was jaywalking illegal?

Regarding 'safely' breaking a red light, I'm sure every single cyclist killed on the roads thought they were 'safely' doing something, otherwise they would have acted differently, wouldn't they? Even if a truck or something was technically at fault, they might still look down and say 'if I was doing that again, I wouldn't stop inside a truck indicating left' or something.

I stop at every red light - even when they're not a junction, say with just a pedestrian light and no-one crossing, but then I treat it was a good excuse for a rest...

what about the people killed *because* they stop at red lights?

Ryaner

Lumen wrote: »

There's a junction near my house which I regularly jump on quiet weekend spins. I'm convinced it's solely activated by a loop in the road, because no matter how many tricks I attempt (placing a cleat on different parts of the loop, hopping up and down, spinning the cranks) the light stays red, for ever.

It could be that I have a warped sense of time and all my impatient tutting, cleating, hopping and spinning happens within the space of 15 seconds. I do drink a lot of coffee before weekend spins.

Junction outside my job is on sensors/timer and at the weekend I've waited 5 minutes for it to change. Apparently late in the evening/night, the sensors stop and the timer switches to 10 minutes because one side has a slip road. Can't really see anyone waiting 10 minutes when there is no other traffic on the road.

seamus

Tayto2000 wrote: »

The individual. Like when crossing a busy st when not near a pedestrian crossing. I have to cross the malahide road to get to the nearest bus stop and shop. Technically I should go to the nearest PED crossing but that would be lunacy if the road was perfectly clear.

So Pete, effectively what you're saying is that we should be all allowed to make up our minds as to whether it's safe or not and if we get it wrong and die, then we just chalk it down as a bad manouver and get on with life? If it's left up to the individual, the individual will often make the wrong choice. Simple as. The roads would be chaos, and there'd be dead cyclists right, left & center as cars and trucks ran red lights to save themselves 5 minutes because, "There was nothing coming".

It's a paradox - you're saying that someone shouldn't decide if they're not fit to decide. But if they're not fit to decide, how do they know that they're making the wrong decision?

petethedrummer

p15574 wrote: »

Since when was jaywalking illegal?

Seems its not, what lead me to believe it was, was a campaign by the Gardai a few years ago to make people use PED crossings around Dublin. All the better there isn't. Now all they need is to abolish traffic light laws for cyclists. and then traffic lights.

p15574 wrote: »

Regarding 'safely' breaking a red light, I'm sure every single cyclist killed on the roads thought they were 'safely' doing something, otherwise they would have acted differently, wouldn't they?

I'm sure anyone killed or injured in any accident would act differently if they got a second chance. But its the act of cycling into a moving vehicle that gets you killed, not cycling through a red light.

p15574 wrote: »

Even if a truck or something was technically at fault, they might still look down and say 'if I was doing that again, I wouldn't stop inside a truck indicating left' or something.

Yes you do what is safe, not what is legal or illegal.

p15574 wrote: »

I stop at every red light - even when they're not a junction, say with just a pedestrian light and no-one crossing, but then I treat it was a good excuse for a rest...

In an urban area I don't tend to travel at speeds that would require a rest.

Stark

I used to be fastidious about stopping at the RLs but these days I tend to go through the ones at pedestrian crossings if there are no pedestrians around. I felt like a German tourist waiting for the green man on an empty street when I used stop at them.

petethedrummer wrote:

Maybe we should. I wouldn't get all worked up about someone breaking one in a vehicle, under certain circumstances. Speeding up and breaking it just as it turns red does get my goat and I don't advocate this type of light breaking.

I think this is the most dangerous form of red light breaking, the amber gambling. Much more dangerous than coming to stop, looking around and assessing the situation, then deciding to go through if there's nothing coming.

mitteman

What are Traffic Lights there for???

lights regulate traffic flows so the city transport runs in a less chaotic way. A few RLJing cyclists does not affect this in the slightest. If Trucks started jumping lights like bikes it would be panic on the streets.

The point being; cyclists can freeload on the transport system without affecting it's functioning in any major way, trucks, buses and SUVs cannot. If everyone cycled there would be no urgent need for lights.

The lights are there for the gasguzzlers!