Why are the Unemployed given so much?

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

Just because you are on the same class doesn't mean you should be treated the same. Why should it?

Personally, I think it should - well to some degree. Of course, people who are unemployed should be encouraged to go back to education but why should they get so much more than somebody else who is embarking on the same course of study.

Its the difference between getting a job during college which may impact their studies, getting a loan which may cripple them for years to come verus getting the BTEA + Grant (special rate) + Medical Card + Rent Allowance

The present situation is quiet simply not fair on people who are not umemployed who want to go back to college to better themselves and embark on a new career

BostonB wrote: »

Live independently and reduce your standard of living if you think it's a better option. Somehow I doubt you find that appealing.

It is my GF that is going back to college as a mature student and she will be redcuing her standard of living, there is no problem there... As a student, you have to!

As I said before, there will be scarifices made this year so that my GF can go to college and I'm not saying that she should get more support from the state to pursue her studies, I'm just saying that its not a level playing field and that the whole system should be looked at and revised.

Now, I don't know what you mean by 'living independently' and your 'doubting of me/my GF finding it appealing'

Myself and my GF are living independently, we are 27 and living together for the past few years. And your 'somehow' comment comes across pretty patronising to be honest but i may be picking that up wrong, apologies if I am.

BostonB

Sorry I was mixing this thread up with the one with someone living with their parents. My bad.

Regardless of that my point was you seem to be equating bettering oneself with being unemployed and having the choice of giving up work and going back to college with someone genuinely unemployed with no choices. It's not the same thing at all. Therefore it's not treated the same.

Why should someone with a job get the same as someone with no job?

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

Why should someone with a job get the same as someone with no job?

If they are both doing the same thing - I would look at it as if 2 people were doing the same job and one was been paid over 5 times more than the other

Now, saying that I am all for encouraging people who are out of work to return to education, of course it makes sense!

But....

My point is those people who are currently unemployed and who want to return to education should not be able to claim the BTEA & the Grant (special rate) - it should be one or the other but certainly not both.... The 2 together is too much when you compare it to people just receiving the grant

A level playing field is all I'm looking for

BostonB

The uneven playing field is one has a job the other hasn't.

One is supported by the state the other isn't. That's another crucial difference.

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

The uneven playing field is one has a job the other hasn't.

One is supported by the state the other isn't. That's another crucial difference.

But nobody has a job when they begin college while one receives far more support from the state at that stage

True, the person who had a job should have some savings and may receive the grant (which isnt a whole lot - just > 3,000pa) and shouldnt receive much more from the state - I have no issue there, my issue is with amount given to people who have been unemployed and are now returning to education in comparision.

Yes there should be an incentive for those unemployed to return to college but at present (or perhaps, in previous years, as i do hear that things are due to be tightened up) that incentive is not fair on others returning as mature students who havent been claiming social welfare

There is my uneven playing field

BostonB

If you can afford to give up a job you are definately not on the same playing as someone with no job.

PjC

Jugs82 wrote: »

Also, I thought you had to be claiming unemployment for 12 months to get BTEA, not 8 like you (Jan - Aug)

I got laid off in Jan and only decied to go back to college when I couldn't find another job. I only got the BTEA because I was made dedundant, otherwise I would have had to wait until I was outta work for 9-12 months.

It was not a choice for me. I never went to college and had no plans on returning untill I was told in an interview, in quite an ignorant tone on the interviewers behalf, that dispite having good experiance they wouldn't consider taking me on because there is so many graduates out there!

I do agree with your point though, only in Ireland can you get laid off, decide to go back to college and be almost as well off as they were when they were working!!!

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

If you can afford to give up a job you are definately not on the same playing as someone with no job.

I appreciate that but my GF can't afford to give up her job (who can) but wants to change career and needs to go back to college as a result - it will be a tough year, no doubt about it but better in the long term

She worked in customer support for a large IT company and decided that she would like to get more involved in the development side as there were developers and testers in her workplace, hence the decision to go back to college.

She didnt expect a huge level of support from the state, so she saved a bit and we looked at what costs would be involved and made it workable (monthly budget and the like...).

We aren't annoyed at not getting much support from the state as it is her choice to go back to college - what we are annoyed about is the crazy amount that 'some' and I emphasis some receive, who have been claiming social welfare.

As I said earlier in the thread, there is potential for people to claim BTEA, Grant (special rate) & Rent Allowance - not to mention the medical card!!

BostonB

Jugs82 wrote: »

I appreciate that but my GF can't afford to give up her job (who can) but wants to change career and needs to go back to college as a result - it will be a tough year, no doubt about it but better in the long term

She worked in customer support for a large IT company and decided that she would like to get more involved in the development side as there were developers and testers in her workplace, hence the decision to go back to college.

She didnt expect a huge level of support from the state, so she saved a bit and we looked at what costs would be involved and made it workable (monthly budget and the like...).

We aren't annoyed at not getting much support from the state as it is her choice to go back to college - what we are annoyed about is the crazy amount that 'some' and I emphasis some receive, who have been claiming social welfare.

As I said earlier in the thread, there is potential for people to claim BTEA, Grant (special rate) & Rent Allowance - not to mention the medical card!!

I still don't get your point. You have job can save. You can choose to go college. You think that's the same as being on the dole no money can't save is being equal.

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

I still don't get your point. You have job can save. You can choose to go college. You think that's the same as being on the dole no money can't save is being equal.

My point is that when 2 people are students and one is getting substancially more support from the state, it can be very unfair

Just comparing the BTEA to the grant payment - its approx. €850/mt vs €285/mt

I am not trying to say that my GF should get more support but saying that the BTEA allowance + grant + rent allowance + medical card is alot in any mans language....

BostonB

How much approx does it cost to go to college, rent a place, and feed yourself for a month

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

How much approx does it cost to go to college, rent a place, and feed yourself for a month

How long is a piece of string

I do think the BTEA should suffice - if someone can live on it before college, then surely they can when they are attending college

Also, it costs the same for everybody to go to college, whether they were unemployed, working beforehand or a first year out of secondary school - why should one section receive so much more than the others? Yes, those on unemployment benefits should keeps their usual payments if they decide to return to education but why get the grant on top of this as is the case for many?

This argument could go on forever but as another poster said, only in Ireland could you end up redundant and then be almost as well off for going to college

redsetter

[HTML][/HTML]Just comparing the BTEA to the grant payment - its approx. €850/mt vs €285/mt

I am not trying to say that my GF should get more support but saying that the BTEA allowance + grant + rent allowance + medical card is alot in any mans language....[/quote]

There is no comparison here, people qualifying for BETA are on social welfare anyway, therefore will be drawing social welfare every week regardless of being in College or not, the fact that they go back to college and are allowed to continue receiving this money is an incentive to get people back into education and then back into work. Putting money into education and getting the unemployed back into education is one way to help get this country out of this recession. Also it gets people out of the social welfare loop.
Grants are seperately run, they are based on your income earned the previous year. There is also financial assistance available to every student from most colleges if needs be.
quote"BTEA allowance + grant + rent allowance + medical card is alot in any mans language"-

• Everyone who qualifies for Beta does not automatically get a grant. You are assessed on your parents income if you live with them, mature student or not, and on your income from the previous year... you will find many many beta qualifiers with no grant whatsoever.
• Social welfare recipients are entitled to Medical cards anyway, and students up until this year had free Doctor visits etc. You will find your GF may in fact be entitled to a medical card herself now that she will not be earning and will be back in education.
• Rent allowance is not an automatic entitlement to BETA recipients, again you are assessed on your current living situation and assessed as having a housing need. Rent allowance is not handed out lightly. If you are renting and lose your job for example you can claim for rent allowance, again this is available to everybody.

Just to clarify,l think your issue may be with the social welfare system in general and benefits available to those on social welfare which is another debate. The only difference with going back to college is you receive Beta and a book grant. I must emphasise again you do not automatically get all these benefits you have mentioned. I think you are talking about a very small percentage of people who get all of these benefits. Grants are very very hard to come by this year for one.
The only issue here you have it seems to me to be people getting the BETA?
If you decide to go back to college you know the expense entailed. This is life, people come from all backgrounds, should a top lawyer's daughter receive the same money as a social welfare dependant single mother's daughter when entering college? The country simply cannot afford to give everybody money. This is why there is a means testing system in place for grants, and why everyone cannot qualify for back to education allowance, it is only fair.
Next year their will be fees for all, so your wish just may come true, every1 will be treated the same, everyone will pay fees, everyone will get the same student DEBT/loan regardless of how much money you earn and how much you can pay. Beta will be added to means testing, and you will find a lot of people sitting at home continuing to claim their social welfare rather than rely on getting a job at the end of a college degree to pay off huge student loans in a country plagued with recession.
And finally how could you be better off being made redundant?? Become unemployed then, why workgo and leave your job if it is that great?

cranky bollix

just one question.
if you get the btea + rent allowance + college fees paid + medical card.
what is the €6000 grant for.is this a book grant??
ive never bought a book nor have most people in my class, thats what the library is for.I just cant see why any student would need €6000 per year on top of every thing else.thats far too much of an insentive to go back to college, surely the real insentive should be your education, since the rest of us have to pay for it afterall.This is the type of nonsense payment that will eventually put the country under.

BostonB

The objective is to get people off the dole and into a job.

Not out of a job and into college.

redsetter

cranky bollix wrote: »

just one question.
if you get the btea + rent allowance + college fees paid + medical card.
what is the €6000 grant for.is this a book grant??
ive never bought a book nor have most people in my class, thats what the library is for.I just cant see why any student would need €6000 per year on top of every thing else.thats far too much of an insentive to go back to college, surely the real insentive should be your education, since the rest of us have to pay for it afterall.This is the type of nonsense payment that will eventually put the country under.

There is no such thing as 6000e for books lol!!The book grant I was referring to is with BETA and is 500e for the year.
The maintenance grant is available to every single person and is completely seperate, the only people entitled to 6000e are under 23's who's parent's sole income is social welfare ie family income under 22,300e or independant mature students who are below the income threshold. The maintenance grant is there as a support from the government for every single student who qualifies for it as a means to help support them through college, the family income must be under 47,000e per year I think it is in order to qualify, it is gross income and both parent's income is included.
Hope this clears things up......again not a lot of people will qualify for full maintenance grants. The grant is there to assist students thru their year, and most certainly is not 6000e for books lol!

cranky bollix

well 6000 per year on top of everything else is what my mates are getting.there all mature independent over the age of 27.I was being sarcastic when i said it was for books.what is this money meant to be for, its very excessive, unless i got my wires crossed , im pretty sure thats there grant!

student30

cranky bollix wrote: »

well 6000 per year on top of everything else is what my mates are getting.there all mature independent over the age of 27.I was being sarcastic when i said it was for books.what is this money meant to be for, its very excessive, unless i got my wires crossed , im pretty sure thats there grant!

Out of curiosity how many of your mates do you know that are getting the full grant?? Were they all on social welfare? Were they living at home?? Did they all get rent allowance???
Lucky them if they get that grant, I am struggling to get mine, don't know one single person who got the full grant so far this year....let me in on their secret ha ha???

Kelda09

cranky bollix wrote: »

well 6000 per year on top of everything else is what my mates are getting.there all mature independent over the age of 27.I was being sarcastic when i said it was for books.what is this money meant to be for, its very excessive, unless i got my wires crossed , im pretty sure thats there grant!

thats amazing, really need to know how to get that much, can't get anything at all. Im paying over 4,000 a ear for my college course and when i went looking I was told that as I was working I would get nothing, at the time I had two jobs so it could have been worse I know but what annoyed me most was the attitude of the numerous people I spoke to about it, I always got the same conversation, which went:
Are you on social welfare,
No
Are you unemployed?
No.
Sorry we cant help you, but try (random person) in another department.
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh!!!!!!!!!!
Sorry for the rant, I apologise. Im sure Ill get asked, it's a part time course not through a uni but affiliated with an IT which apparently instantly meant no assistance, even had to hear about tax back from other students, surely I could have been informed about that at least????

Jugs82

How to qualify for special rate of grant - (taken from StudentFinance.ie)

"The current top grant level, at €6,690 (non-adjacent) and €2,680 (adjacent) includes a special rate of maintenance grant on top of the highest level of the regular grant. In order to be eligible for this level of grant, your reckonable income must not only be at or below a certain limit, it must also include, as at 31 December 2008, at least one of a range of certain social welfare payments."

The fact that you must be one of a range of social welfare payments to qualify just doesnt sit well with me

So, if you are getting BTEA and are lucky enough to qualify for the grant, you will more likely than not receive the special rate.

So on top of the BTEA allowance, those on social welfare heading back to college can potentially get a grant that is double that of the majority of grant holders - Doesn't sound terribly fair to me!!

BTEA + Grant Special Rate Vs Grant is outlined below: (based on a 9 month college year)

204 + 170 (approx.) = 374/wk Vs 85 Euro/wk

BostonB

Why are you ignoring the bit about the income req.

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

Why are you ignoring the bit about the income req.

I'm not ignoring it - I said 'if' and 'potentially'

So, if you are getting BTEA and are lucky enough to qualify for the grant, you will more likely than not receive the special rate.

So on top of the BTEA allowance, those on social welfare heading back to college can potentially get a grant that is double that of the majority of grant holders - Doesn't sound terribly fair to me!!

Also, if somebody has been out of work for a year, then they will surely qualify for both the BTEA and the Grant at the special rate.

BostonB

I meant your ignoring that there's a difference in income between the people you want treated the same.

candysapple

Jugs82 wrote: »

I'm not ignoring it - I said 'if' and 'potentially'





Also, if somebody has been out of work for a year, then they will surely qualify for both the BTEA and the Grant at the special rate.

Not necessarily. The grant is based on the candidates household income so if that's over the income limit for the special rate you wouldn't qualify. The grant also measures assets and income from sources other than employment so there are many ways you would become disqualified from the special rate.

Anna88

Just because your unemployed doesn mean your not a tax payer!! We all buy food...pay rent buy other things, hell some people have cars that are unemployed, they pay insurance and road tax!! So stop bitching only "working" people pay tax!! And why should the unemployed and everyone else (including yourself) pay for people to have kids...if ye cant afford kids dont have them, everyone pays for child allowanace dont they??

I think people that work and have a problem with those who dont are jealous....jealous their stuck in a job they hate and the unemployed have all the free time in the world!!

And...I bet if we lived in a communist state you'd still moan that you deserve more then others!!

Greenmachine

Can someone please link to the stat requirements for BTEA/ Grants etc. Was looking at going back to college as a mature student not sure how any of it works.

Jugs82

Anna88 wrote: »

Just because your unemployed doesn mean your not a tax payer!! We all buy food...pay rent buy other things, hell some people have cars that are unemployed, they pay insurance and road tax!! So stop bitching only "working" people pay tax!! And why should the unemployed and everyone else (including yourself) pay for people to have kids...if ye cant afford kids dont have them, everyone pays for child allowanace dont they??

I think people that work and have a problem with those who dont are jealous....jealous their stuck in a job they hate and the unemployed have all the free time in the world!!

And...I bet if we lived in a communist state you'd still moan that you deserve more then others!!

jez, calm the hell down Anna

Never said I was jealous of the unemployed, I enjoy working, don't hate the world or my job or mind paying taxes. Also, not sure where your coming from regarding the kids/childrens allowance argument....

I meant your ignoring that there's a difference in income between the people you want treated the same.

Fair enough but thats not what Im saying - I don't want them treated the same - I just want it to be fairer

My argument is that 'some' - emphasis on 'some' get a huge level of assistance

This isn't a person leaving their job to go to college Vs an unemployed person going back to college argument - Im just saying that the system as it stands can be incredibly unfair on people doing the same course

Once again, my GF or me aren't arguing that she should get more support going back to college as a mature student but that some get far too much support and no, I am no saying that this 'some' are the majority of BTEA recipients but a proportion of them...

BostonB

So the ones on the least income and longest without work get too much help. They shouldn't get more than those not unemployed and with an income.

cranky bollix

student30 wrote: »

Out of curiosity how many of your mates do you know that are getting the full grant?? Were they all on social welfare? Were they living at home?? Did they all get rent allowance???
Lucky them if they get that grant, I am struggling to get mine, don't know one single person who got the full grant so far this year....let me in on their secret ha ha???

Theres no secret, im going on grant payments from last year, the grant was over 6500, and I know off the top of my head 3 people getting this grant.
1 of them was made redundant.(received redundancy payment)
1 was on the dole for over a year and the other was on the dole for a year and had a mortgage.None of them lived at home and I know 2 of them are getting rent allowance, not sure about the other.
Their all getting the full grant, I dont know what type of grant the rest of the mature students are getting in my year, but I assume their getting the same amount.Its rediculous for them all to be recieving the same amount.If you were on the dole for a year you should be more than happy, getting free fees and a few quid for expenses.not €6500.As Ive said earlier on in this thread, they reckon they have never had it so easy (besides the 1 with mortgage), holidays abroad and new i-mac computers.this is hardly fair on the rest of us who are skint.
and yes I am jealous! why wouldnt I be.

candysapple

Who gets too much support?
You don't seem to think that people who live on a low income or limited means should be denied support so it's not them. And it doesn't seem to be the people who look for financial assistance (your own GF looked for these and unfortunately didn't qualify for any) whether they qualify or not. The only people I can see that you don't think should receive these supports are those who are 'scamming' the system and nobody can argue with that.

Just because 2 people attend the same course does not mean they have reached that point through by the same path.