Why are the Unemployed given so much?

Jugs82

Need to let off a bit of steam

Looking into what my GF is entitled to as she is heading back to college this year on a F-T course as a mature student.

She has applied for the grant and is also looking at claiming her tax/tax credits back for 2009.

However, the more I look at the entitlements others are getting, the more frustrating it becomes - people who have been unemployed get a BTEA (Back To Education Allowance) - essentially their dole while they attend college. Now not only that but they may be entitled to claim Rent allowance.

This is on top of getting the grant which they are no doubt eligble for after been on the dole. Thats the Grant, BTEA abd Rent allowance compared to just the grant for people like my GF who have worked for the past 5 years, paid tax, PRSI etc...

It just seems unfair/unjust to me that the people who pay tax and work hard get so little in comparision. What really gets me is that two people doing the same course could be in the same boat but one would be getting much more assistance from the state - that in my opinion is plain unfair and a distinct advantage to the person getting more assistance!!

Rant over....

SuperTyper

I'm unemployed since Jan 08 (having worked for 18 years previous to this, paying taxes and PRSI) and I'm returning to college in Sept. Yes I get VTOS and rent allowance (no grant though) but I have 2 kids to support and after college I will be returning to work (hopefully). I certainly believe I deserve this 2nd chance, for myself and my kids.

amacachi

Because it makes economic sense to give incentives to the unemployed to go back to college and less so for people who are working. Doesn't always work out fairly.

Jugs82

So you are discriminated against for going back to college as a mature student, wanting to better yourself, just because you are leaving a job to do so.

I symphatise with those that have been unemployed and are delighted that some are going back to college, of course they deserve the chance - what annoys me is the disparity in assistance.

Trish2007

Im also going back to college next month, getting the BTEA and hopefully will get a grant. I was made redundant last december.
To be honest, why would the social welfare support people who are walking out of a job when they have so many that cannot even find a job. I understand that your GF wants to better herself but its not up to the state to help.

Jugs82

Trish2007 wrote: »

Im also going back to college next month, getting the BTEA and hopefully will get a grant. I was made redundant last december.
To be honest, why would the social welfare support people who are walking out of a job when they have so many that cannot even find a job. I understand that your GF wants to better herself but its not up to the state to help.

That argument works both ways to be honest - why is it the taxpayers responsibility to fund an unemployed person to return to college?
As regards my GF leaving her job, its not a job conected to her study (customer service) and somebody will be replacing her - in effect, creating a job for somebody who is currently unemployed

Also, I thought you had to be claiming unemployment for 12 months to get BTEA, not 8 like you (Jan - Aug)

Anyways, my point is - is the BTEA not enough, i think its unfair that you can get a grant and rent allowance on top of it!! It just seems like a hell of lot compared to what people wanting to pursue a course who are not unemployed get - sample breakdown below:

BTEA - 867/MT (204 x 4.25wks)
Grant - 557/MT (Assuming you receive the non-adjacent special rate as most on BTEA do - 6690/12)
Rent Allowance - varies from 400 to 700 a month in many cases depending on circumstances

Thats a total of 1824 to 2124 a month which is a lot in anybodys language...

My GF will have to use savings (not a lot) as the only support she will get is the grant and that is at a lower rate as she does not qualify for the 'special rate' - this works out as 285 Euro a month (3420/12). That doesnt cover rent, never mind everyday expenses such as food, transport etc...

Now, in all honesty, does that represent fairness??

Larianne

I understand your frustration. I moved home as I knew I'd be heading back to college and even though I don't ask for anything off my parents I'll probably be classified as dependant on them and won't get anything or very little (minimum).

But with helping people who are unemployed get back into the education system, it will prevent further years of being on the dole as once finished they'll have the education to get a job and will more than likely want the job! I honestly doubt the majority of people on the dole want to be there. I was on it for 8 weeks last year and jesus I'd take any job going!

You're always gonna get people scamming the system. I know a guy who stayed unemployed for a year (but did nixers on the side) so he'd get a grant this year. And something which really annoyed me was I heard of a guy from a wealthy family who is living away from home, in another of their properties and thus he gets a grant which in turn is paying the mortgage of their 2nd property!! This seems to be a regular thing with wealthy families.

For someone who's being saving for the last year to help with going to college it's a right kick in the teeth to hear about these sorts of things. But such is life!

Larianne

Jugs82 wrote: »

Also, I thought you had to be claiming unemployment for 12 months to get BTEA, not 8 like you (Jan - Aug)

I think it was changed to 9 months recently.

Jugs82

I understand the logic behind upskilling/reskilling people who are unemployed and am completly in favour of it.

Its just the difference in support that sickens me to a degree.

Personally, I think anybody getting the BTEA allowance + Grant should not be eligible for Rent allowance.

Also, it should be one or the other, BTEA or grant, not both - maybe the BTEA could be a little more as an incentive to go back to college - say 250/wk...

Its typical of the country at the moment and as for those stories of wealthy families abusing the grant system - :mad::mad: that really gets my blood boiling

Trish2007

If you receive statutory redundancy then you do not have to wait before you can claim BTEA.

Sad Professor

Jugs82 wrote: »

Also, it should be one or the other, BTEA or grant, not both - maybe the BTEA could be a little more as an incentive to go back to college - say 250/wk...

The minister has said that from next year the BTEA will be included in the means testing of the grant. So a lot of people will no longer be entitled to both.

I'm not entitled to it myself, but as said above I do think the BTEA is a good incentive for people to return to education. However, I would agree that one shouldn't be automatically entitled to both it and the grant.

However, the grant system really needs to be substantially overhauled and increased. It should be an alternative to the BTEA and make some significant contribution to the living expenses of lower-income students. 3,400 is pittance for someone that has rent to pay. Either that or there needs to be some sort of state-backed student loan scheme that doesn't require a well-off parent going as guarantor.

Jugs82

Sad Professor wrote: »

However, the grant system really needs to be substantially overhauled and increased. It should be an alternative to the BTEA and make some significant contribution to the living expenses of lower-income students. 3,400 is pittance for someone that has rent to pay. Either that or there needs to be some sort of state-backed student loan scheme that doesn't require a well-off parent going as guarantor.

This scheme seems to work quiet well in Australia, so no reason why it shouldn't be the same here. I think they start taking repayments from your wage payment once you begin work after college.

tonywanda

Jugs82 wrote: »

This scheme seems to work quiet well in Australia, so no reason why it shouldn't be the same here. I think they start taking repayments from your wage payment once you begin work after college.

Yeah I'm starting on a BTEA and considered applying for a grant, and rent allowance. However I wouldn't be eligible and I'm fine with that considering the state of the economy and my own personal circumstances-- it would be unfair to squeeze a few extra bills from the government considering..

I would be more than happy to entertain the Australian model; it's seems pretty fair to those who are genuinely seeking employment after their education.

Sad Professor

Jugs82 wrote: »

This scheme seems to work quiet well in Australia, so no reason why it shouldn't be the same here. I think they start taking repayments from your wage payment once you begin work after college.

Is that in addition to the loan they get for tuition fees?

I don't care for the Australian model. Graduates are left with one massive debt - with growing interest - to pay off. Plus, whatever other loans for living expenses they got. I think I'd rather beg and scrounge my way through college than be faced with that at the end of 3/4 years.

Jugs82

Sad Professor wrote: »

Is that in addition to the loan they get for tuition fees?

I don't care for the Australian model. Graduates are left with one massive debt - with growing interest - to pay off. Plus, whatever other loans for living expenses they got. I think I'd rather beg and scrounge my way through college than be faced with that at the end of 3/4 years.

Not sure if the loan is for fees or if they are paid by govt - but, if you had a system where there was free fees and an option of a loan from the govt (0% interest or alternatively v.low interest rates) for living expenses up to a max of say 7,500 Euro a year, then I feel that this would represent a fair and very workable model.

Students have the option of taking whatever amount up to 7,500 each year, so i would imagine many would go for 5k, leaving them with a debt of 15k at the end of the course (assuming a 3 yr course) Not an outrageous amount if you paid 3k off each year over 5 years with an option to make lump sum repayments if you can to pay it off earlier.

It sure as hell sounds better than the current irish model which is not only unfair but also hugely confusing for many.

Also, see no reason why the current BTEA shouldn't be repaid after the person begins work especially if they had been in receipt of the grant as well

The whole system needs a radical overhaul IMO

lisajane

Im with you OP.

This whole thing is a joke. How they pay for someone to go to college and others get no help. I understand that someone that is unemployed, should get some help. But they also expect people to stay in a job they have. If you walk out, its all up to you. What if you hate that job? They still expect you to stay. Ok, i can find another job but I want to get out of the job im in and do veterinary nursing. But i have to have a qualification to legally practice as a vet nurse.

When i go back, im not entitled to anything. Even the grant cause i have already been to college. Im on my own. Im lucky in that i can do a course in vet nursing in a PLC college where there is a small registration fee and some college expenses, i think its around 600euro. But its the living expenses that will get me. I will have to have a part time job which wont be easy when you have long complicated medical terms to learn instead of working.

Raiser

Larianne wrote: »

<SNIP>I heard of a guy from a wealthy family who is living away from home, in another of their properties and thus he gets a grant which in turn is paying the mortgage of their 2nd property!! This seems to be a regular thing with wealthy families.

For someone who's being saving for the last year to help with going to college it's a right kick in the teeth to hear about these sorts of things. But such is life!

Please try and find out who they are through your source and have these Fcukers anonymously reported - thats our money those Cnuts are stealing :mad:

Larianne

Raiser wrote: »

Please try and find out who they are through your source and have these Fcukers anonymously reported - thats our money those Cnuts are stealing :mad:

Yeah, I have thought about it. Where would I report it? I dunno if I could go through with it though, silly eh?

mickoneill30

Larianne wrote: »

Yeah, I have thought about it. Where would I report it? I dunno if I could go through with it though, silly eh?

Yes. Silly.

http://www.welfare.ie/EN/ContactUs/Pages/reportfraud.aspx

Sad Professor

Welfare wouldn't be responsible for it. You'd probably have to report it to the local authority he is getting it from. And there may not be much they can do about.

Assumedly this guy is a mature student though. Otherwise he would be assessed on his parent's income regardless of where he lived. Think of all those school-leavers whose rich parents are buying them apartments and cars for college even as we speak. If they were entitled to apply as independent candidates they'd all be getting the grant without much difficulty. It is because of this that non-mature students can't apply as independent candidates.

Tbh if someone's parents are rich and still providing that kind of financial support after 23 it would be very hard to prove it. Unless we want "grant inspectors" coming around to our houses scrutinising everything. Applying for the grant is an enough hassle as it is.

If you know the person and know they shouldn't be getting the grant you should report it. But I would be very sceptical about anecdotal stories like this coming from a third-party.

fashionista911

Of course there has to be some kind of incentive, Some people come from very disadvantaged backgrounds and in order for them ever to get any qualifications they do need some kind of incentive. The BTEA is a wonderful chance for someone to improve there life and the lives of their children

It is a bit unfair though, you can see how they cannot give it to everyone

cranky bollix

Im with the op too.
Some people may need all this money if they have kids and mortgage etc.
But a very large portion of them dont need so much.I am going into my third year and i never got anything, as i was only on the dole for 10 months before starting college and would of had to stay on the dole for another full 12 months to get the btea.so i moved home and im still entitled to nothing even though my dad is retired.i have friends who are spending their money on holidays and new imacs.they have never had a better standard of life.it makes me jealous more than anything, within the next few years, with everyone going back to college - this country is screwed financially!

Raiser

Larianne wrote: »

Yeah, I have thought about it. Where would I report it? I dunno if I could go through with it though, silly eh?

€228 million saved in first 6 months of this year by people getting sick of watching their neighbours sit around in their Pyjamas all day, drinking, doing drugs and spending our money :mad:

Story here

Reporting Possible Fraud in Relation to the Department's Schemes

The Central Control Section of the Department of Social and Family Affairs accepts reports of possible fraud offered by members of the public in relation to the Department’s schemes.

Reports are accepted by email, phone or in writing. All reports are dealt with in confidence. A member of the public may give details anonymously. Contact Details:

By email: central.control@welfare.ie

By phone: (01) 704 3000, ask for Central Control Section or

(071) 9672648,

By Post: Central Control Division, Shannon Lodge, Carrick-on-Shannon, Co Leitrim.

Larianne

Sad Professor wrote: »

Welfare wouldn't be responsible for it. You'd probably have to report it to the local authority he is getting it from. And there may not be much they can do about.

Assumedly this guy is a mature student though. Otherwise he would be assessed on his parent's income regardless of where he lived. Think of all those school-leavers whose rich parents are buying them apartments and cars for college even as we speak. If they were entitled to apply as independent candidates they'd all be getting the grant without much difficulty. It is because of this that non-mature students can't apply as independent candidates.

Tbh if someone's parents are rich and still providing that kind of financial support after 23 it would be very hard to prove it. Unless we want "grant inspectors" coming around to our houses scrutinising everything. Applying for the grant is an enough hassle as it is.

If you know the person and know they shouldn't be getting the grant you should report it. But I would be very sceptical about anecdotal stories like this coming from a third-party.

No, I know it's true. It's my friends friends brother. She moved into one of their other apartments. I don't have enough info on him to 'shop' him. Just his name, the area (not address) he lives and what college he goes to.

But I see what you're saying. I guess it would be hard to prove that his parents aren't giving him anything.

Anyway, OT so I'll stop!

Clueless09

Jugs82 wrote: »

Need to let off a bit of steam

Looking into what my GF is entitled to as she is heading back to college this year on a F-T course as a mature student.

She has applied for the grant and is also looking at claiming her tax/tax credits back for 2009.

However, the more I look at the entitlements others are getting, the more frustrating it becomes - people who have been unemployed get a BTEA (Back To Education Allowance) - essentially their dole while they attend college. Now not only that but they may be entitled to claim Rent allowance.

This is on top of getting the grant which they are no doubt eligble for after been on the dole. Thats the Grant, BTEA abd Rent allowance compared to just the grant for people like my GF who have worked for the past 5 years, paid tax, PRSI etc...

It just seems unfair/unjust to me that the people who pay tax and work hard get so little in comparision. What really gets me is that two people doing the same course could be in the same boat but one would be getting much more assistance from the state - that in my opinion is plain unfair and a distinct advantage to the person getting more assistance!!

Rant over....

You are a little mis-informed here OP. You say "this is on top of getting the grant which they are no doubt eligible for after being on the dole". Incorrect- I just was informed this morning by Kildare Co.Co that I will not be getting a grant-even though I was made redundant last Nov. It goes on last years earnings and I had 11 months wages last year-they do not take into account that I am unemployed the last 9 months, apparently that is not and "exceptional circumstance" these days.

Also you said "it just seems unfair and unjust to me who pay tax and work hard get so little in comparision". Its not just you and your GF who have worked hard and paid tax, I have worked hard and paid tax for the last 10 years.

And also people who get BTEA are not automatically entitled to rent allowance either, you are just listing off things people MAY or may not be entitled to... I am not entitled to it.

So basically I could continue to get my dole for the next couple of years until things improve or i could get BTEA and go and improve my chances of getting a job-obviously I'm going to college.

I hope your GF gets some assistance and does well in college-but please remember not everyone is a scrounger.

Jugs82

Clueless09 wrote: »

I hope your GF gets some assistance and does well in college-but please remember not everyone is a scrounger.

You obviously did not read my post very clearly - i never mentioned the word 'scrounger' I was only voicing my frustration at the unjust nature of funding for mature students and the undeniable imbalance between BTEA payments and grant payments

Clueless09 wrote: »

And also people who get BTEA are not automatically entitled to rent allowance either, you are just listing off things people MAY or may not be entitled to... I am not entitled to it.

See my original post below

Now not only that but they may be entitled to claim Rent allowance.

My emphasis on the 'may be entitled' piece

cranky bollix

Clueless09 wrote: »

You are a little mis-informed here OP. You say "this is on top of getting the grant which they are no doubt eligible for after being on the dole". Incorrect- I just was informed this morning by Kildare Co.Co that I will not be getting a grant-even though I was made redundant last Nov. It goes on last years earnings and I had 11 months wages last year-they do not take into account that I am unemployed the last 9 months, apparently that is not and "exceptional circumstance" these days.

Also you said "it just seems unfair and unjust to me who pay tax and work hard get so little in comparision". Its not just you and your GF who have worked hard and paid tax, I have worked hard and paid tax for the last 10 years.

And also people who get BTEA are not automatically entitled to rent allowance either, you are just listing off things people MAY or may not be entitled to... I am not entitled to it.

So basically I could continue to get my dole for the next couple of years until things improve or i could get BTEA and go and improve my chances of getting a job-obviously I'm going to college.

I hope your GF gets some assistance and does well in college-but please remember not everyone is a scrounger.

thought you had to be unemployed for 1 year to get the back to education.that was the basis for me getting refused 2 years ago, after i had been on the dole 10 months

bionic.laura

OP not everyone who is unemployed gets loads of money to go to college. I'm unemployed for over a year. Before that I worked and paid taxes like you and everyone else. I'm going back to college and am entitled to nothing. I will have to support myself and also have to pay full fees for my course. It's a one year course and with my previous qualifications and experience I should be able to get a job at the end of it so I can pay back any loans I have to get.
So not every unemployed person going back to college gets assistance.

BostonB

Jugs82 wrote: »

...It just seems unfair/unjust to me that the people who pay tax and work hard get so little in comparision. What really gets me is that two people doing the same course could be in the same boat but one would be getting much more assistance from the state - that in my opinion is plain unfair and a distinct advantage to the person getting more assistance!!...

I think the idea is they need more assistance, otherwise they wouldn't qualify in the first place.

Jugs82

BostonB wrote: »

I think the idea is they need more assistance, otherwise they wouldn't qualify in the first place.

I do agree but whats to say that everybody going back to college as a mature student need assistance.

I'm not against the BTEA, just the fact that 2 people on the same course get such different levels of support and that it is/was possible for some (I emphasis some) to avail of the BTEA, Grant and Rent Allowance

BostonB

Just because you are on the same class doesn't mean you should be treated the same. Why should it?

Live independently and reduce your standard of living if you think it's a better option. Somehow I doubt you find that appealing.