Bike2work scheme - a danger to cyclists

Jawgap

tomasrojo wrote: »

Actually, that's the only point I disagree with Jawgap on. I don't want any more Irish-designed cycle lanes.

I notice that Cyclist.ie specifically says that it _doesn't_ include more cycle lanes in its list of objectives.

I think more cyclists will mean more infra-structure alright, but also improved infra-structure.

I quite agree cycle lanes around Dublin and Ireland are sh1te!! to put it mildly. There are a few decent examples (the Phoenix Park, Clontarf to Sutton) but by and large it's a bit of paint and coloured tarmac - cycle lanes designed by people who don't cycle!! And even the decent examples are plagued by pedestrians - great slalom practice though.

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths and put in physically separated bike tracks on wide roads I say!!

But until that happens maybe a few kms of cycle track could be re-surfaced and properly cleaned - at the moment they're just glass traps.

petethedrummer

Jawgap wrote: »

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths

These are (slowly) happening as we speak.

tomasrojo

Jawgap wrote: »

There are a few decent examples (the Phoenix Park, Clontarf to Sutton)

But that's because, especially in the second case, there are very few junctions. It's really only at junctions that there is any chance of crossing trajectories.

The problem with cycle lanes, even in countries where they have better designed segregated facilities, is that they make junctions more complicated. And the authorities here in Ireland can't resist fixing that problem by taking priority away from cyclists. Which inexperienced cyclists are totally unaware of, putting them into hazardous situations.

Jawgap wrote: »

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths and put in physically separated bike tracks on wide roads I say!!

The first part you suggest sounds great. I understand that it's been done with success elsewhere.

Not sure about the second. I think I'd just prefer to have the wide road. I find physically separated bike tracks make merging at junctions really tricky, and I don't find the bit between the junction at all hazardous, so I don't really want to be protected on that bit.

Generally, if a lane allows a cyclist to take a more pleasant route or a shorter route, great. But if all it's doing is shadowing the road and then sporting a Yield triangle at every junction, then I'd have to say it's counterproductive.

Jawgap

petethedrummer wrote: »

These are (slowly) happening as we speak.

As cycle tracks ?

DJsail

tunney wrote: »

B*ll*cks, if someone is dangerous in their vehicle, any vehicle, then they shouldn't be on the road.

Conidering the current death rate on the roads primarily due to speeding motorists I think I can get over a few more shaky cyclists slowly trying to benefit their health, environment etc. etc. etc.

We all started at some time unless your suggesting the greatest freds amongst us simply popped out of the womb riding a carbon fiber tour ride, as with all things in life they will learn with help from people like youself and input to this site

Glitterangel76

Vélo wrote: »

I was one of those wobbly noobs on the road last year. FFS people have to start somewhere, so best of luck to them and the more the merrier.

I remember the first time I went to look around to see if anything was coming, thank God it wasn't beacuse when I turned back around I was practically in the middle of the road:eek:.

I do agree that some training or leaflets would be a good idea. I got most of my advice from coming on here and it's helped me in a big way.

I agree with Velo, I've learnt so much since finding Boards...

I started commuting to work and pottering around on my bike since June (had the bike before that but had a car so it was kinda neglected) and now if I want to get advice on everything from Road Tyres to Hand Signals..I come on here and I know someone will have either posted the answers or I can ask the question.

Maybe someone needs to advertise Boards Cycling forum in the bike shops where us Newbies sneek into hoping that ye super cyclists will wait till we leave to laugh at us!

tomasrojo

Glitterangel76 wrote: »

I agree with Velo, I've learnt so much since finding Boards...

I started commuting to work and pottering around on my bike since June (had the bike before that but had a car so it was kinda neglected) and now if I want to get advice on everything from Road Tyres to Hand Signals..I come on here and I know someone will have either posted the answers or I can ask the question.

Maybe someone needs to advertise Boards Cycling forum in the bike shops where us Newbies sneek into hoping that ye super cyclists will wait till we leave to laugh at us!

I agree. I think this a great forum for advice and tips. And a good spectrum of views on all matters.

Stark

tomasrojo wrote: »

Not sure about the second. I think I'd just prefer to have the wide road. I find physically separated bike tracks make merging at junctions really tricky, and I don't find the bit between the junction at all hazardous, so I don't really want to be protected on that bit.

Generally, if a lane allows a cyclist to take a more pleasant route or a shorter route, great. But if all it's doing is shadowing the road and then sporting a Yield triangle at every junction, then I'd have to say it's counterproductive.

+1

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

I agree. I think this a great forum for advice and tips. And a good spectrum of views on all matters.

Stark wrote: »

+1

-1.

livvy

tunney wrote: »

Given the popularity of the bike2work scheme the roads have been invaded by a plague of middle aged men and women who haven't ridden a bike since they were kids and probably only ever road them on the footpath under parental supervision. Now they are on the roads without parental supervision and haven't a clue what they are doing. They lack the basic cop on of a cyclist, they lack any sort of bike fitness and as such put themselves, and lack the "punch" to get out of them, in situations dangerous to themselves (but don't notice) and situations that are potential lethal to cyclists.

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

It would be great to have more bikes on street instead of cars. Although you raise a valid safety point - the benefits certainly outweigh your argument. Your "basic cop on" argument is a bit weak - give people some credit - it is not rocket science - I accept serious cyclist train hard, are committed and dedicate hours each week to training. This scheme is aimed at getting more arses of seats & cars of the streets - improving basic health and environment.

The training issue issue you raised, in my opinion, should be directed at the 17 yr olds driving Moms jeep on a first provisional - this untrained road user is much more of a liability than 40 yr old Sean cycling to work and home again.

petethedrummer

Jawgap wrote: »

As cycle tracks ?

Yup
http://roads.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=375&Itemid=362

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60574875

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cyclists_praise_canal_path_resurfacing

Dyr

I, for one, welcome our new uncertain, shakey bike users as they aren't going to go flying through red lights and green men, mount pavements at will and all the assorted other pignorant behaviour that many of our more experienced cyclists feel that they are entitled to inflict on pedestrians.

Long may these casual cyclists reign say I.:)

petethedrummer

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

I suspect it would be 5 continuous hours of indoor training on rollers, every night for a month.;)

rughdh

SecondTime wrote: »

Well as one of those new B2Wers who hadn't been on a bike in more than 25years I fully accept that I'm a bit wobbly on it & as I'm not competitive I don't mind being overtaken by other cyclists or waiting safely behind the buses at stops that appear in the middle of the "cycle lane".
But 2 weeks in & I'm definitely better than I was when I started:)
And I plan on cycling in the winter in the rain and cold EXCEPT if it's icy/slippy underfoot - then I will return to being a pedestrian!

No need to stop commuting when it's icy - just get studded tyres.

Lumen

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

Tunney doesn't take courses. Courses take Tunney.

buffalo

I helped a friend in buying her first adult bike on Tuesday - she's cycled into work twice now, and I'm very happy she's doing so.

She'll learn the ways of the road in time, and cyclists will hit a sort of critical mass with all these commuters, so that even more motorists will learn to watch out for all of us. Everyone's a winner!

tunney

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

I learnt the rules of the road and wasn't allowed cycle on main roads until my dad reckoned I was a safe cyclist.

livvy wrote: »

It would be great to have more bikes on street instead of cars. Although you raise a valid safety point - the benefits certainly outweigh your argument. Your "basic cop on" argument is a bit weak - give people some credit - it is not rocket science

You'd think. But this basic cop on is lacking - they wouldn't do it in a car why do it on a bike?

[

SecondTime

What? And take off the normal ones when I open the back door and see that it's icy and then put on these studded tyres (must have a look for these to see what they're like!) and still get to work on time? And then next morning if it's not icy anymore reverse the procedure?:eek:
And anyway - What if I broke a nail?:D Us B2Wers just haven't got the dedication required to be true hard-core cyclists:) But I think this site is great, have learned a lot since I discovered it. Thanks to everyone who's been positive about us wobbly noobs/PoBs

tomasrojo

The Galway Cycling Campaign produced a very good leaflet. It was double-sided A3, folded down to a pocket-sized leaflet. It was largely based on Cyclecraft and was a very good summary of the major points.

Glitterangel76

May I also add....Opinions such as Tunneys, is one of the reason my friend won't cycle with me.
She is a complete novice cyclist (not that I'm impressive by any means), she refuses to cycle towards town...she will only contemplate cycling to Sutton/Howth from Clontarf as there is the bike path there and back, even that is a mission cos of the better cyclists zooming past. She also has a habit of not concentrating and ending up cycling in front of me...as I get closer and closer to the drop off into the sea

I keep telling her practise makes perfect..but she's so unsure of herself that to get her to even contemplate cycling more..I've had to agree to a trade off..I'll start jogging 4 days a week and she'll cycle one day at the weekend. (and I hate jogging!!)

Rob_l

I have a different and postive attitutde to people using the bike to work scheme and then abandoning it and it is this if those people who have recently taken the bike to work scheme up and say 70% stop for the winter, and out of those 70% who stop if 10% of them learn one thing and that one thing is a bit more respect for cyclists on roadways then to me the bike2work scheme is a massive success

tunney

Glitterangel76 wrote: »

May I also add....Opinions such as Tunneys, is one of the reason my friend won't cycle with me.
She is a complete novice cyclist (not that I'm impressive by any means), she refuses to cycle towards town...she will only contemplate cycling to Sutton/Howth from Clontarf as there is the bike path there and back, even that is a mission cos of the better cyclists zooming past. She also has a habit of not concentrating and ending up cycling in front of me...as I get closer and closer to the drop off into the sea

I keep telling her practise makes perfect..but she's so unsure of herself that to get her to even contemplate cycling more..I've had to agree to a trade off..I'll start jogging 4 days a week and she'll cycle one day at the weekend. (and I hate jogging!!)

Your friends attitude is to be commended, she is refusing to run until she can walk. Once she feels confident she will ride into town and probably do so in a safe fashion, what is wrong with that? Why are you pushing your friend into situations she doesn't feel comfortable in?

rughdh

SecondTime wrote: »

What? And take off the normal ones when I open the back door and see that it's icy and then put on these studded tyres (must have a look for these to see what they're like!) and still get to work on time? And then next morning if it's not icy anymore reverse the procedure?:eek:

Yes, you've got it!

SecondTime wrote: »

And anyway - What if I broke a nail?:D

If you need nails wear false ones.

SecondTime wrote: »

Us B2Wers just haven't got the dedication required to be true hard-core cyclists:) But I think this site is great, have learned a lot since I discovered it. Thanks to everyone who's been positive about us wobbly noobs/PoBs

It ain't just noobs that are wobbly.

Seriously though, have to put my money where my mouth is and get them meself this winter.:) Didn't stop me commuting last winter, but was a bit dodgy.

Rob_l

tunney wrote: »

You'd think. But this basic cop on is lacking - they wouldn't do it in a car why do it on a bike?

[

I disagree i would rather bad drivers in any form on bike than behind the wheel of a car as a bad driver is a bad driver no matter what form they use, so many drivers take their driving test and then never ever use those rules they learnt for the test.

Just yesterday i had a perfect example of a woman who clearly didn't know what her wing mirrors were for! On a bike this might cause an accident and some scrapes by not looking behind her but in her car it could easily result in some poor unsuspecting cyclist under her wheel

Jawgap

SecondTime wrote: »

What? And take off the normal ones when I open the back door and see that it's icy and then put on these studded tyres (must have a look for these to see what they're like!) and still get to work on time? And then next morning if it's not icy anymore reverse the procedure?:eek:
And anyway - What if I broke a nail?:D Us B2Wers just haven't got the dedication required to be true hard-core cyclists:) But I think this site is great, have learned a lot since I discovered it. Thanks to everyone who's been positive about us wobbly noobs/PoBs

No, just get a second bike!!:D

Dublinstiofán

Jawgap wrote: »

Sorry, but this argument, if you accept it, is a reason for giving up just about everything!!

Untrue, i'm not forcing people to do anything i'm just giving the reasons behind why i won't be cycling in town anymore and i think they are valid.
I still cycle most days just not in the city centre as its a deathtrap with virtually no cycle lanes.

Jawgap wrote: »

I reckon cycling is quite safe because you can regulate your risk by your behaviour - the times I have been injured coming off a bike it's been because I was doing something stupid (cycling on minor roads in icy weather, springs to mind!)

I disagree, Cycling in Dublin CC is not safe. While you can try to be as sensible as you can cycling in town you cant control what other idiot motorists, taxis and busses are going to do around you. And eventually some people (not all) pay the ultimate price for it.

ROK ON

Just in case folks think that you need studded tyres to cycle in icy weather - you dont.

I would not change my tyres to go out when icy - just be more careful and cycle at a slower pace. Use back brake rather than front brake a bit more.

Back to the OP comments.

I would welcome training for all road users before they left school (cars, mopeds and bikes). It is a worthwhile investment for a state to make in its people and healthcare.

Other than that, I think Tunney is just a tad reactionary.
Bad cycling, is not only for noobs. Plenty of experienced cyclists who havent a clue (couriers for example, your average hammerhead at a sportif).

Vélo

tomasrojo wrote: »

I agree. I think this a great forum for advice and tips. And a good spectrum of views on all matters.

Like cake!

lyders

I think you hardcore cyclist commuters are only annoyed because more slower cyclists on the roads/cycletracks means a longer commute time for you!

Dublinstiofán

tomasrojo wrote: »

Dublin doesn't have hordes of cyclists as yet. The numbers have gone up, but they aren't as high as they used to be. It accommodated many more cyclists in the fifties and sixties.

I didn't say Dublin has hordes of cyclists, i said Dublin is not equipped to deal with cyclists.

tomasrojo wrote: »

You have no objective basis for saying this. It would be fair to say "You will eventually come off your bike", or "you will encounter intimidation", or something like that. If cycling were as dangerous as you're making out, cyclists would feature disproportionately in accident statistics. They don't. Cyclists make up about 3 percent of the traffic mix, and make up about 3 percent of the traffic fatalities, for example.

I think i have grounds for saying what i said considering in the last year three of my mates have been knocked from bikes in Dublin city centre and one has lost a limb.
Your right cycling is not dangerous i do it most days in the park, where there is a cycle path.

Cycling in Dublin city centre is very dangerous, ive done it for years and think after seeing what has happened to the people around me in the last year i will make the sensible decision to leave the bike at home and arrive alive.
It doesn't take a genius to work out that if 4 of 8 cyclists i know have been hit in town it won't take long for the same to happen to me, no matter how careful i am.

Oh and Only fatal accidents make up the proportion that you are talking about. Many many accidents involving cyclists happen every day in Dublin and are not reported.