Bike2work scheme - a danger to cyclists

tunney

Given the popularity of the bike2work scheme the roads have been invaded by a plague of middle aged men and women who haven't ridden a bike since they were kids and probably only ever road them on the footpath under parental supervision. Now they are on the roads without parental supervision and haven't a clue what they are doing. They lack the basic cop on of a cyclist, they lack any sort of bike fitness and as such put themselves, and lack the "punch" to get out of them, in situations dangerous to themselves (but don't notice) and situations that are potential lethal to cyclists.

* Should the bike2work scheme have a cavaet that basic bike training is required?
* Should it just be scrapped? As to be honest once the cold and wind comes thoes b2wers are back in their cars
* Should the scheme just be scrapped as, while its great to take advantage of, without a proper infrastructure once the winter comes it simply going to result in a huge number of second hand bikes for sale?

Lumen

No. No. No.

tunney wrote: »

They lack the basic cop on of a cyclist, they lack any sort of bike fitness and as such put themselves, and lack the "punch" to get out of them

Like this?

stuf

I think you should become Lars von Trier and make a film about a cyclist who decides, in his investigation of why cyclists are in so much danger on the roads, becomes obsessed with the idea that cyclists are inherently evil and the cause of their own and other cyclists demise in all cases bar none. The cyclist then maims his best friend and cuts his front brake cable.

Either that or just give people who are a bit shaky a wide berth.

Hungrycol

Happy to see anyone on a bike so I say good for them. What disappoints me is that there should be a minimum spend on the bike in the Cycle to Work scheme. They buy a cheapo bike, have an aweful cycling experience, put it in their shed to catch cobwebs and wonder what all the fuss is about.

petethedrummer

tunney wrote: »

* Should the bike2work scheme have a cavaet that basic bike training is required?

No, but cyclists should warn other cyclists if they think they are gonna do something stupid.

tunney wrote: »

* Should it just be scrapped? As to be honest once the cold and wind comes thoes b2wers are back in their cars

No, I want to buy cheap bike. Anyways, what kind of weather is it ok to ditch the bike and go by bus/car? Just so people know they're not gonna be labelled wimps, where is the line? Just for the record, I think indoor training is for pussies. I hope you don't own rollers.:p

tunney wrote: »

* Should the scheme just be scrapped as, while its great to take advantage of, without a proper infrastructure once the winter comes it simply going to result in a huge number of second hand bikes for sale?

Loads cheap hardly-ridden 2nd hand bikes?? What's not to love?

(Great thread for a Friday....I had a Lance one planned, but you got in first.)

-K2-

Don't worry. They'll be off the roads when winter arrives and the temperature begins to drop.

Waterfall1975

stuf wrote: »

Either that or just give people who are a bit shaky a wide berth.

....on dublin's city streets!?

Caroline_ie

I can't disagree with you, but that's because I am a bike snob. I was cycling in town yesterday during rush hour and encountered a few of these commuters, they frustrates me, but strangely, make me feel better about myself...

DJsail

If one out of ten participants keep up the B2W scheme then its still a success, yeah some will be slow, unsteady and be riding complete sh*t boxes but patience on our part is just as important otherwise we should all transfer to the ranting and raving thread.

We were all shaky at first, whether that start was at the age of 14 or 40 shouldn't matter

Jumpy

Lumen wrote: »

No. No. No.



Like this?

THATS *punch* for risking your life by not wearing a helmet.

irishmotorist

Perhaps some training or at least a leaflet with the types of good cycling tips that we get on here from time to time wouldn't go astray. However, the more people on bikes the better. I'm sure everybody here didn't have road smarts on their bike immediately - it takes experience. Though I haven't noticed too much of it myself, we're in early days of the scheme so as all the noobs get experience, things will get better.

tunney

DJsail wrote: »

If one out of ten participants keep up the B2W scheme then its still a success, yeah some will be slow, unsteady and be riding complete sh*t boxes but patience on our part is just as important otherwise we should all transfer to the ranting and raving thread.

We were all shaky at first, whether that start was at the age of 14 or 40 shouldn't matter

B*ll*cks, if someone is dangerous in their vehicle, any vehicle, then they shouldn't be on the road.

tunney

petethedrummer wrote: »

No, but cyclists should warn other cyclists if they think they are gonna do something stupid.

"Hey you there, don't cycle off the kerb into my path, I will hit you and only one of us is likely to keep our balance"

petethedrummer wrote: »

No, I want to buy cheap bike. Anyways, what kind of weather is it ok to ditch the bike and go by bus/car? Just so people know they're not gonna be labelled wimps, where is the line?

never for commuting

petethedrummer wrote: »

Just for the record, I think indoor training is for pussies. I hope you don't own rollers.:p

you don't train properly then, you ever done a five hour turbo?

petethedrummer wrote: »

Loads cheap hardly-ridden 2nd hand bikes?? What's not to love?

They are all sh!te, like you can get a decent bike for a grand.

Hungrycol

tunney wrote: »

B*ll*cks, if someone is dangerous in their vehicle, any vehicle, then they shouldn't be on the road.

The difference of course is that one ton of mechanical propelled metal is a lot more dangerous driven by a dangerous driver then a dangerous POB.

davej

I think it's a very snobby attitude to have. Everyone has to start sometime. If there were some sort of basic training required then all cyclists should be required to do it.

I do agree that the winter + crappy infrastructure will discourage a huge proportion of the new bike2workers.

But overall I think things are looking up for cycling in Ireland (we also have the free dublinbike scheme next month).

But we need dedicated cycle paths or there will be a huge increase in accidents...

davej

Dublinstiofán

I don't really have anything against people who do cycle in town as long as they have thought about carefully, have a roadworthy bike, lights and safety equiptment.
I however have recently stopped cycling into town myself.
Imo Dublin City is not equipped to deal with hoards of cyclists.

In the last two years:
My mate came over the handlebars of his bike when a car pulled out from a side street without even looking. Case still ongoing in court.

My next door neighbour lost his leg over cycling in town.

My other mate popped his elbow out when coming off his bike only recently. Had an emergency operation and now has loads of pins in his elbow.

Another friend of mine is a cycling courier and is forever coming off his bike in town about once or twice a week. Although this may be because he goes too fast.

I mean just get the message, no matter how good you are at cycling and even if you have a good head on your shoulders ,In town, your eventually going to get caught out by an idiotic motorist who had a bad day and just wants to get home in a hurry. Or you will get a bang of a bus eventually. Why take the risk?

And thats leaving aside the pedestrians

tunney

davej wrote: »

I think it's a very snobby attitude to have. Everyone has to start sometime. If there were some sort of basic training required then all cyclists should be required to do it.

Being concerned about your safety is snobby?

Peterx

this thread is purely for reaction?

Of course it's a good idea, the more bikers the better.

Eventually we get some new bikers who get to make informed decisions about bike traffic flow management and implement them.

The more bikers there are the more motorists get used to them and stop seeing them as non tax-paying irritants and more like other humans to share the tarmac world with.

And for the many bike snobs out there the more beginner cyclists on the road the more people you can look down at as you pass on your better bike.

Apparently there's general overall population health benifits and reduced carbon emissions but sure who cares about all that...

Hungrycol

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

In the last two years:
My mate came over the handlebars of his bike when a car pulled out from a side street without even looking. Case still ongoing in court.

My next door neighbour lost his leg over cycling in town.

My other mate popped his elbow out when coming off his bike only recently. Had an emergency operation and now has loads of pins in his elbow.

Another friend of mine is a cycling courier and is forever coming off his bike in town about once or twice a week. Although this may be because he goes too fast.

Kinda glad I don't know you then

Dublinstiofán

Hungrycol wrote: »

Kinda glad I don't know you then

Trust me it's not knowing me that's the problem here. :pac:
Its down to how long you can get away with it.

EDIT: Are your scars from coming off your bike? Or are you a winner?

petethedrummer

tunney wrote: »

never for commuting

Actually I agree.

tunney wrote: »

you don't train properly then, you ever done a five hour turbo?.

No way Deborah, only outdoor work for me. Cross country alot of the time. Can't be indoors when there's dinner to catch.

tunney wrote: »

They are all sh!te, like you can get a decent bike for a grand.

For knocking about on yeah.

Jawgap

tunney wrote: »

* Should the bike2work scheme have a cavaet that basic bike training is required?
* Should it just be scrapped? As to be honest once the cold and wind comes thoes b2wers are back in their cars
* Should the scheme just be scrapped as, while its great to take advantage of, without a proper infrastructure once the winter comes it simply going to result in a huge number of second hand bikes for sale?

That would be no on all three counts.

Training isn't necessarily going to make cyclists safer, plus there seems to be plenty of questionable behaviour from cyclists who don't buy their bikes through the scheme. Second it reinforces the idea that cycling is dangerous and third it creates a barrier to the take up of a scheme that is simplicity itself.

Most people who purchase bikes on the scheme will pack up for the winter, but I suspect the majority of that group will emerge from their winter hibernation next spring. A small minority will carry on over the winter and upgrade their bikes next year - an interesting survey over the next few years might be to see how many W200 riders started off on the C2W scheme.

Another small minority will park their bikes up and likely never sit on them again. They'll be left next to the stepper, rowing machine and weights they bought over the years!!

Also, the scheme has been something of a boon for local bike shops and probably helped keep a few in business - so in that sense it's contirbuted to maintaining cycling's infra-structure.

Finally, physical infra-structure will follow cycling numbers - the more cyclists there are, the greater the chance improvements will be made.

I think the scheme will only be terminated if it's seen to be "too successful" - as in too much tax and PRSI is being lost from people buying bikes!

tomasrojo

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

Imo Dublin City is not equipped to deal with hoards of cyclists.

Dublin doesn't have hordes of cyclists as yet. The numbers have gone up, but they aren't as high as they used to be. It accommodated many more cyclists in the fifties and sixties.

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I mean just get the message, no matter how good you are at cycling and even if you have a good head on your shoulders ,In town, your eventually going to get caught out by an idiotic motorist who had a bad day and just wants to get home in a hurry. Or you will get a bang of a bus eventually. Why take the risk?

You have no objective basis for saying this. It would be fair to say "You will eventually come off your bike", or "you will encounter intimidation", or something like that. If cycling were as dangerous as you're making out, cyclists would feature disproportionately in accident statistics. They don't. Cyclists make up about 3 percent of the traffic mix, and make up about 3 percent of the traffic fatalities, for example.

Motorcyclists, on the other hand, feature disproportionately in the fatalities. Even there, I think claiming that your number will eventually come up if you take a motorcycle through town would also be misleading, and also, for the majority of motorcyclists, untrue.

SecondTime

Well as one of those new B2Wers who hadn't been on a bike in more than 25years I fully accept that I'm a bit wobbly on it & as I'm not competitive I don't mind being overtaken by other cyclists or waiting safely behind the buses at stops that appear in the middle of the "cycle lane".
But 2 weeks in & I'm definitely better than I was when I started:)
And I plan on cycling in the winter in the rain and cold EXCEPT if it's icy/slippy underfoot - then I will return to being a pedestrian!

Jawgap

Dublinstiofán wrote: »

I don't really have anything against people who do cycle in town as long as they have thought about carefully, have a roadworthy bike, lights and safety equiptment.
I however have recently stopped cycling into town myself.
Imo Dublin City is not equipped to deal with hoards of cyclists.

In the last two years:
My mate came over the handlebars of his bike when a car pulled out from a side street without even looking. Case still ongoing in court.

My next door neighbour lost his leg over cycling in town.

My other mate popped his elbow out when coming off his bike only recently. Had an emergency operation and now has loads of pins in his elbow.

Another friend of mine is a cycling courier and is forever coming off his bike in town about once or twice a week. Although this may be because he goes too fast.

I mean just get the message, no matter how good you are at cycling and even if you have a good head on your shoulders ,In town, your eventually going to get caught out by an idiotic motorist who had a bad day and just wants to get home in a hurry. Or you will get a bang of a bus eventually. Why take the risk?

And thats leaving aside the pedestrians

Sorry, but this argument, if you accept it, is a reason for giving up just about everything!!

I've a long list of injuries from playing rugby; in school fellahs were always getting clattered playing hurling and football; one brother broke and ankle while on a stag; another brother broke bones doing Tae Kwon Do; my kids have been stitched following football etc.......etc.....

I reckon cycling is quite safe because you can regulate your risk by your behaviour - the times I have been injured coming off a bike it's been because I was doing something stupid (cycling on minor roads in icy weather, springs to mind!)

Yes, you will have the unexpected incident that blindsides you, but they're not limited to cycling - they can happen if you're walking, in the car, sitting at home or in the office.

MCOS

Jawgap wrote: »

Finally, physical infra-structure will follow cycling numbers - the more cyclists there are, the greater the chance improvements will be made.

!

Great point.

I have noticed a marked increase in the number of cyclists on my usual driving routes. The cycle2work scheme like any other initiative can be pulled and dragged into any negative light however IMO its ultimately a good idea.

More cyclists on the roads creating a need for more cycle lanes, thus wider roads how bad can that be.

GreeBo

Yeah too many newbie cyclists is just making junctions crazy.
Sooner or later the "I need to be at the top of the queue" guy/girl in their Raleigh Triumph is going to be in the middle of the damn junction waiting for the lights to change.

This also severely pisses off motorists who get stuck behind the 8 abreast morons.

tomasrojo

tunney wrote: »

They are all sh!te, like you can get a decent bike for a grand.

I agree with petehtedrummer on this. A grand for a commuter/gad-about bike is plenty, surely?

I admit I have never owned an expensive bike. I just bought a bike for a grand, and that's as high as I was willing to go for a commuter, and it was far more expensive than any other bike I've ever bought.

I'm sure expensive bikes are far more enjoyable, but if you're cycling under 15km to work, surely a E1000 bike is more than sufficient?

tomasrojo

MCOS wrote: »

Great point.

I have noticed a marked increase in the number of cyclists on my usual driving routes. The cycle2work scheme like any other initiative can be pulled and dragged into any negative light however IMO its ultimately a good idea.

More cyclists on the roads creating a need for more cycle lanes, thus wider roads how bad can that be.

Actually, that's the only point I disagree with Jawgap on. I don't want any more Irish-designed cycle lanes.

I notice that Cyclist.ie specifically says that it _doesn't_ include more cycle lanes in its list of objectives.

Acoustic

cant believe the negativity of this thread

lack of bike fitness , havnt cycled in years , middle aged etc

i personally think its great to see loads on there bikes , cycled up to ashbourne yesterday on my todd from finglas on the backroads and saw about 30 cyclists no joke , even stopped had a chat with 2 of them

were a nation of constant negativity

Vélo

I was one of those wobbly noobs on the road last year. FFS people have to start somewhere, so best of luck to them and the more the merrier.

I remember the first time I went to look around to see if anything was coming, thank God it wasn't beacuse when I turned back around I was practically in the middle of the road:eek:.

I do agree that some training or leaflets would be a good idea. I got most of my advice from coming on here and it's helped me in a big way.

Jawgap

tomasrojo wrote: »

Actually, that's the only point I disagree with Jawgap on. I don't want any more Irish-designed cycle lanes.

I notice that Cyclist.ie specifically says that it _doesn't_ include more cycle lanes in its list of objectives.

I think more cyclists will mean more infra-structure alright, but also improved infra-structure.

I quite agree cycle lanes around Dublin and Ireland are sh1te!! to put it mildly. There are a few decent examples (the Phoenix Park, Clontarf to Sutton) but by and large it's a bit of paint and coloured tarmac - cycle lanes designed by people who don't cycle!! And even the decent examples are plagued by pedestrians - great slalom practice though.

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths and put in physically separated bike tracks on wide roads I say!!

But until that happens maybe a few kms of cycle track could be re-surfaced and properly cleaned - at the moment they're just glass traps.

petethedrummer

Jawgap wrote: »

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths

These are (slowly) happening as we speak.

tomasrojo

Jawgap wrote: »

There are a few decent examples (the Phoenix Park, Clontarf to Sutton)

But that's because, especially in the second case, there are very few junctions. It's really only at junctions that there is any chance of crossing trajectories.

The problem with cycle lanes, even in countries where they have better designed segregated facilities, is that they make junctions more complicated. And the authorities here in Ireland can't resist fixing that problem by taking priority away from cyclists. Which inexperienced cyclists are totally unaware of, putting them into hazardous situations.

Jawgap wrote: »

A few of the old rail lines should be opened up as tracks; improve the canal towpaths and put in physically separated bike tracks on wide roads I say!!

The first part you suggest sounds great. I understand that it's been done with success elsewhere.

Not sure about the second. I think I'd just prefer to have the wide road. I find physically separated bike tracks make merging at junctions really tricky, and I don't find the bit between the junction at all hazardous, so I don't really want to be protected on that bit.

Generally, if a lane allows a cyclist to take a more pleasant route or a shorter route, great. But if all it's doing is shadowing the road and then sporting a Yield triangle at every junction, then I'd have to say it's counterproductive.

Jawgap

petethedrummer wrote: »

These are (slowly) happening as we speak.

As cycle tracks ?

DJsail

tunney wrote: »

B*ll*cks, if someone is dangerous in their vehicle, any vehicle, then they shouldn't be on the road.

Conidering the current death rate on the roads primarily due to speeding motorists I think I can get over a few more shaky cyclists slowly trying to benefit their health, environment etc. etc. etc.

We all started at some time unless your suggesting the greatest freds amongst us simply popped out of the womb riding a carbon fiber tour ride, as with all things in life they will learn with help from people like youself and input to this site

Glitterangel76

Vélo wrote: »

I was one of those wobbly noobs on the road last year. FFS people have to start somewhere, so best of luck to them and the more the merrier.

I remember the first time I went to look around to see if anything was coming, thank God it wasn't beacuse when I turned back around I was practically in the middle of the road:eek:.

I do agree that some training or leaflets would be a good idea. I got most of my advice from coming on here and it's helped me in a big way.

I agree with Velo, I've learnt so much since finding Boards...

I started commuting to work and pottering around on my bike since June (had the bike before that but had a car so it was kinda neglected) and now if I want to get advice on everything from Road Tyres to Hand Signals..I come on here and I know someone will have either posted the answers or I can ask the question.

Maybe someone needs to advertise Boards Cycling forum in the bike shops where us Newbies sneek into hoping that ye super cyclists will wait till we leave to laugh at us!

tomasrojo

Glitterangel76 wrote: »

I agree with Velo, I've learnt so much since finding Boards...

I started commuting to work and pottering around on my bike since June (had the bike before that but had a car so it was kinda neglected) and now if I want to get advice on everything from Road Tyres to Hand Signals..I come on here and I know someone will have either posted the answers or I can ask the question.

Maybe someone needs to advertise Boards Cycling forum in the bike shops where us Newbies sneek into hoping that ye super cyclists will wait till we leave to laugh at us!

I agree. I think this a great forum for advice and tips. And a good spectrum of views on all matters.

Stark

tomasrojo wrote: »

Not sure about the second. I think I'd just prefer to have the wide road. I find physically separated bike tracks make merging at junctions really tricky, and I don't find the bit between the junction at all hazardous, so I don't really want to be protected on that bit.

Generally, if a lane allows a cyclist to take a more pleasant route or a shorter route, great. But if all it's doing is shadowing the road and then sporting a Yield triangle at every junction, then I'd have to say it's counterproductive.

+1

Lumen

tomasrojo wrote: »

I agree. I think this a great forum for advice and tips. And a good spectrum of views on all matters.

Stark wrote: »

+1

-1.

livvy

tunney wrote: »

Given the popularity of the bike2work scheme the roads have been invaded by a plague of middle aged men and women who haven't ridden a bike since they were kids and probably only ever road them on the footpath under parental supervision. Now they are on the roads without parental supervision and haven't a clue what they are doing. They lack the basic cop on of a cyclist, they lack any sort of bike fitness and as such put themselves, and lack the "punch" to get out of them, in situations dangerous to themselves (but don't notice) and situations that are potential lethal to cyclists.

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

It would be great to have more bikes on street instead of cars. Although you raise a valid safety point - the benefits certainly outweigh your argument. Your "basic cop on" argument is a bit weak - give people some credit - it is not rocket science - I accept serious cyclist train hard, are committed and dedicate hours each week to training. This scheme is aimed at getting more arses of seats & cars of the streets - improving basic health and environment.

The training issue issue you raised, in my opinion, should be directed at the 17 yr olds driving Moms jeep on a first provisional - this untrained road user is much more of a liability than 40 yr old Sean cycling to work and home again.

petethedrummer

Jawgap wrote: »

As cycle tracks ?

Yup
http://roads.southdublin.ie/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=375&Itemid=362

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=60574875

http://www.galwaycycling.org/cyclists_praise_canal_path_resurfacing

Dyr

I, for one, welcome our new uncertain, shakey bike users as they aren't going to go flying through red lights and green men, mount pavements at will and all the assorted other pignorant behaviour that many of our more experienced cyclists feel that they are entitled to inflict on pedestrians.

Long may these casual cyclists reign say I.:)

petethedrummer

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

I suspect it would be 5 continuous hours of indoor training on rollers, every night for a month.;)

rughdh

SecondTime wrote: »

Well as one of those new B2Wers who hadn't been on a bike in more than 25years I fully accept that I'm a bit wobbly on it & as I'm not competitive I don't mind being overtaken by other cyclists or waiting safely behind the buses at stops that appear in the middle of the "cycle lane".
But 2 weeks in & I'm definitely better than I was when I started:)
And I plan on cycling in the winter in the rain and cold EXCEPT if it's icy/slippy underfoot - then I will return to being a pedestrian!

No need to stop commuting when it's icy - just get studded tyres.

Lumen

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

Tunney doesn't take courses. Courses take Tunney.

buffalo

I helped a friend in buying her first adult bike on Tuesday - she's cycled into work twice now, and I'm very happy she's doing so.

She'll learn the ways of the road in time, and cyclists will hit a sort of critical mass with all these commuters, so that even more motorists will learn to watch out for all of us. Everyone's a winner!

tunney

livvy wrote: »

What course did you undertake before you became an experienced cyclist?

I learnt the rules of the road and wasn't allowed cycle on main roads until my dad reckoned I was a safe cyclist.

livvy wrote: »

It would be great to have more bikes on street instead of cars. Although you raise a valid safety point - the benefits certainly outweigh your argument. Your "basic cop on" argument is a bit weak - give people some credit - it is not rocket science

You'd think. But this basic cop on is lacking - they wouldn't do it in a car why do it on a bike?

[

SecondTime

What? And take off the normal ones when I open the back door and see that it's icy and then put on these studded tyres (must have a look for these to see what they're like!) and still get to work on time? And then next morning if it's not icy anymore reverse the procedure?:eek:
And anyway - What if I broke a nail?:D Us B2Wers just haven't got the dedication required to be true hard-core cyclists:) But I think this site is great, have learned a lot since I discovered it. Thanks to everyone who's been positive about us wobbly noobs/PoBs

tomasrojo

The Galway Cycling Campaign produced a very good leaflet. It was double-sided A3, folded down to a pocket-sized leaflet. It was largely based on Cyclecraft and was a very good summary of the major points.

Glitterangel76

May I also add....Opinions such as Tunneys, is one of the reason my friend won't cycle with me.
She is a complete novice cyclist (not that I'm impressive by any means), she refuses to cycle towards town...she will only contemplate cycling to Sutton/Howth from Clontarf as there is the bike path there and back, even that is a mission cos of the better cyclists zooming past. She also has a habit of not concentrating and ending up cycling in front of me...as I get closer and closer to the drop off into the sea

I keep telling her practise makes perfect..but she's so unsure of herself that to get her to even contemplate cycling more..I've had to agree to a trade off..I'll start jogging 4 days a week and she'll cycle one day at the weekend. (and I hate jogging!!)