Rationalist Society

Dubhghaillix

Hi,

Myself and a few others have been looking to start a Society for Atheists, Agnostics and Free thinkers this year. We need the support of 15 current students to found the society. We've a facebook page set up at the moment but support is hard to come by.

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=111931253845&ref=ts

If anyone is interested please contact charlesoduill@gmail.com with your name, student number and Course.

Many Thanks,

Charles Doyle, 2nd Year Arts.

An Bradán Feasa

What kind of events would your society be organising?

raah!

rationalism
1. the doctrine that knowledge is gained only through the reason, a faculty independent of experience.
2. the doctrine that all knowledge is expressible in self-evident propositions or their consequences. — rationalist, n. — rationalistic, adj.

The name of your society is perhaps ambiguous if it is meant to be for "Atheists, Agnostics and Free thinkers" , none of which are inherently rationalistic.

Dubhghaillix

It's mostly just to create a community for Non-Believers within the college. Hopefully we'd have debates and discussions on important topics like Human Rights, Freedom From Religion, Separation of Church and State, Arguments against the Supernatural and such. The aim would be to raise awareness of Atheism in general around the University and to let people know that you don't have to believe in the supernatural to be a moraly upright person.

Dubhghaillix

Perhaps it would clarify things if I explained that I don't give a flying toss about your opinion. Atheism, Agnosticism and Free Thought philosophies are quite rational. We believe things based on what we observe in the world around us, not on ancient texts or fabulous stories. We see no evidence for the supernatural, therefore we do not assume that it exists. We see evidence for Gravity, for Evolution, for Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity, so we believe that they are true. If the evidence contradicts what we believe, then we go with what the evidence tells us, regardless of what our imaginations want to believe. That seems quite rational to me, and to the 175,000 or so other Non-Believers in this country. I posted this thread so that Non-Believers can help start our little Godless Society, not so you could bounce a ball and hope that I jump. Now I've got an estimated 53 years left on this planet and I don't intend to spend any more of my time listening to someone looking to stir up controversy just for the sake of it. Good-day.

raah!

Ah yes, that's very good. There is a difference between being "rational" and "rationalist" , believing things "based on what we observe in the world around us" is empiricism, which is the opposite to rationalism. That is the reason I pointed it out to you, so you don't appear as a fool to everyone.

It was not my intention to bounce any ball. I was simply pointing out a definition.

Dubhghaillix

Apologies. This is why I shouldn't write on the internet. I always get my wires crossed and wind up looking like a tool. We picked rationalist soc because it's less provocative than Atheist Society. And of course, expecting that someone would attack the idea, I went on the offensive without thinking. Damnit, well I'm certainly not qualified to start a rationalist Society, that was very irrational. Nevertheless, there will hopefully be a Society for people who do not Believe in the supernatural. If anyone wants to join that, they are more than welcome to. I have to go with the evidence in this case, I'm mistaken. Great I embarrass the thing before it's even made. (Kev, if you're reading this, this is why I don't want to be the auditor!!!!)

kevinmcinerney

but doesnt rationalism also just mean "any view appealing to reason as a source of knowledge or justification"....are u talking about the strict philosophical meaning......surely people would understand....do u think it would cause problems....maybe a society for reason would be better?

Dubhghaillix

Difficult to say. Apparently we'll have to re-think the name to avoid looking stupid (again). I've seen "rationalist" used as a blanket term for all non-believers and sceptics a few times. Someone who uses reason, and rightly wants to know why something is so, instead of just taking other peoples word for it. But I'd consider Empirical Evidence an vital part of rational thinking. You get the evidence first, then form your theory. Darwin's beard! The dictionary is against our title, whatever shall we do?!!! Easy, change the name. ****CORRECTION**** This is the GODLESS SOCIETY!!!!! For people who've seen no empirical evidence for the supernatural, and decide that it probably doesn't exist, and people who've thought about the supernatural rationally and see no reason to believe alike. That seems fair.

kevinmcinerney

hmmm better think on it....society for science reason and secepticism isnt bad.....

raah!

Atheist and agnostic society is one name .

Anyway, here is a forum which you may be interested in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=614

ZorbaTehZ

That's insane, I was just talking to a guy I know about starting a soc for atheists... you've got my vote!

dapto1

I don't really see the point of this society, but then again I don't see the point to a lot of them.

Flamed Diving

Surely there are existing college societies such as this, with better names.



I like A&A, actually. You could have some fun with that, in the posters, using the logo for Automobile Association, etc.

Dubhghaillix

Ya, talks are ongoing to resolve the name crisis :P. The Apostasy Society is most popular, since it'll confuse the most people . Ya, there's not much point to any society really, seeing as how the condition of life lacks a point. But sure ya might as well make the most of it!

Lockstep

I don't really see what such a society would achieve tbh.

I can't really see what it would do beyond discussions and debates and these are already served by Lit and Deb, Lawsoc etc.

Then again, there's loads of societies which are the same.

Flamed Diving

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I don't really see what such a society would achieve tbh.

I can't really see what it would do beyond discussions and debates and these are already served by Lit and Deb, Lawsoc etc.

Then again, there's loads of societies which are the same.

I think a sense of association might be enough, for some.

Dubhghaillix

Ya, that's basically the idea here. Meet like minded people etc etc.

I'd definitely be up for this, was thinking about doing it myself. Would be interesting to meet like minded individuals and have a sense of community similar to the religious societies on campus.

Could be cajoled into helping set it up...

Lockstep

I'd say there'd need to be more to a society than just being a social club.

THere's a few aspiring societies attempting to set up (YES for example), so there'd be a few different ones trying to get recognition and funding.

THey'd really need to show what they'd bring to society life rather than just providing a group to associate with.

kickoutthejams

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'd say there'd need to be more to a society than just being a social club.

THere's a few aspiring societies attempting to set up (YES for example), so there'd be a few different ones trying to get recognition and funding.

THey'd really need to show what they'd bring to society life rather than just providing a group to associate with.

The society would contribute to society life by promoting rational thinking and secularism through talks, debates and guest speakers.

It would also provide a social outlet for non religious students similar to those provided by the Christian Union and the Muslim Youth Society.

Atheists are the least trusted minority in the US (http://www.asanet.org/cs/root/topnav/press/atheists_are_distrusted)
and this shows that awareness urgently needs to be raised among religious people.

I reckon thats plenty contribution to society life...

Lockstep

Deleted User wrote: »

The society would contribute to society life by promoting rational thinking and secularism through talks, debates and guest speakers.

But these can already be achieved by existing groups such as Lit and Deb (they've debated things like Sharia Law as well as bringing in a few nutjob fundamentalist Christians)
Colleges are fairly strapped for cash as is, (we've the most societies out of any college in Ireland IIRC)

Deleted User wrote: »

It would also provide a social outlet for non religious students similar to those provided by the Christian Union and the Muslim Youth Society.

I'm not too up on either of those societies, but I'd imagine their social aspect is a side effect rather than the reason they are societies.

Deleted User wrote: »

Atheists are the least trusted minority in the US (http://www.asanet.org/cs/root/topnav/press/atheists_are_distrusted)
and this shows that awareness urgently needs to be raised among religious people.

I reckon thats plenty contribution to society life...

We're not really the US,
To be fair, we're not the US where religion plays an incredibly large role in everything from daily life to who you vore for.

kickoutthejams

kickoutthejams wrote: »

But these can already be achieved by existing groups such as Lit and Deb (they've debated things like Sharia Law as well as bringing in a few nutjob fundamentalist Christians)
Colleges are fairly strapped for cash as is, (we've the most societies out of any college in Ireland IIRC)

That is a decent point, but with Lit and Deb you'll get 1 debate a year on these issues, if you're lucky, and there's alot more to them than that.

In relation to the money side of things, there are loads of societies, but the number who are active and actually require funding on a regular basis is quite small, basically I'd say the cost per society to the university is roughly similar to that in other colleges

kickoutthejams wrote: »

I'm not too up on either of those societies, but I'd imagine their social aspect is a side effect rather than the reason they are societies.

Not really, a friend of mine is head of the CU, and their bread and butter is getting speakers in and the odd trip to conferences around the country, it's mostly for like minded people to meet, socialise and discuss religion. I would propose something similar for atheists and agnostics

kickoutthejams wrote: »

We're not really the US,
To be fair, we're not the US where religion plays an incredibly large role in everything from daily life to who you vore for.

I'll concede that one, definitely not the same over here, but there are still people who don't really understand atheism or atheists.

The main reason I would love to see a society like this would be to meet others I could chat to about atheism, maybe get some debate going with the religious societies, stuff like that.

aguaclara

i'd be up for this, definitely. we could link up with atheist ireland and help out with some of their projects, have a proper debate about the blasphemy debacle, and generally promote the whole separation of chuch and state ideal... think of the potential for guest speakers!! dawkins, hitchens, sam harris, pz myers...we could even get terry eagleton in and just heckle him mercilessly for being an incorrigible twit.

aguaclara

i would however strongly advise that you call it something along the lines of atheist and agnostic society. if you call it the rationalist society, it may well attract militant christiany types who are determined to show up and argue their case that they can be rational etc, which is all well and good except that i (and the other people who have responded favourably here) would want a society of like-minded heathens with a common interest and goal, rather than just another forum for believers to argue with non-believers, of which there are plenty already. ultimately, it gets pretty lonely being an atheist and i want to meet some others.

Flamed Diving

aguaclara wrote: »

i would however strongly advise that you call it something along the lines of atheist and agnostic society. if you call it the rationalist society, it may well attract militant christiany types who are determined to show up and argue their case that they can be rational etc, which is all well and good except that i (and the other people who have responded favourably here) would want a society of like-minded heathens with a common interest and goal, rather than just another forum for believers to argue with non-believers, of which there are plenty already. ultimately, it gets pretty lonely being an atheist and i want to meet some others.

However, I would advise against implying that the religious are somehow not welcome to come along and look. It would give the society a bad image, and would make you seem very unreasonable, which is kind of the opposite to what you are wishing for. In fact, once you are up and running, and I like to think you would hold discussions/debates, with both sides of the fence being represented. There is no point in having a soc with a bunch of atheists, hiding under a pile of coats.

I think there seems to be a few people willing to give this a go, do people want to meet up and have a chat about it?

aguaclara

I like to think you would hold discussions/debates, with both sides of the fence being represented

that's a noble idea alright, and i can't speak for others, but personally i'm no more inclined to debate with theists about the existence of god than i am to argue about whether the earth is flat or if the tooth fairy is doing her job properly. i like to think we'd start off from the point of "god is a fiction" and move on from there to the more important stuff, like getting all the religious twaddle out of our constitution, keeping religious delusions out of our laws and in the delusional's head, getting the catholic folk out of our schools, and generally making ireland a properly secular state where you're free to pursue religion if you want but can easily avoid it if you don't.

we can't exclude people, because it's a university society. everyone is welcome and i absolutely support anyone and everyone's right to come. but you might as well make it clear what kind of a society it is and who it's aimed at.

also, how many of these debates have you seen? they tend to go something along the lines of "god isn't real", "yes he is", "well, it's extremely likely that's he's just a human invention, and we have all this evidence: a,b,c,d...x,y,z." "well, i believe in it because i have faith and you can't stop me. moreover, i'm going to force my beliefs on you. and i may sue your ass for €25000 if i can get my friends angry enough. so there."

...maybe i should just set up a post-theist society, for myself and the one other evangelical atheist on campus...

Flamed Diving

aguaclara wrote: »

that's a noble idea alright, and i can't speak for others, but personally i'm no more inclined to debate with theists about the existence of god than i am to argue about whether the earth is flat or if the tooth fairy is doing her job properly..

And this isn't cowardly? What kind of message does this send? What about the people who attend the debate and are fence-sitters? What of when they hear that the A&A Soc won't debate the religious?

aguaclara

do you think the christian society debates whether god exists? do you think muslim soc/muslim youth (i'm not up on society names) sit around and argue about whether allah might actually be just in their heads? i don't know, i've never gone to their meetings, but i doubt it. i would imagine that they agree that they believe in something and then discuss the corrollaries of that.

my point is that there are umpteen forums for debating belief/non-belief up and down. i'd be more than happy to talk to other atheists about what it's like being an atheist in ireland, and indeed the psychological benefits of believing in an omniscient being (which are proven and documented). but i'd really rather not meet up with religious folk and have to listen to the same tired debate again. it's pointless, it usually ends in stalemate and anyway to properly argue a point with someone usually requires giving their point of view some credence. i don't. i think it's ludicrous. i will not argue about tooth fairies.

that said, i think your version of the society is the one that will come about. irish atheists/agnostics tend to be a lot more tentative in their lack of faith and nervous about causing offence. i'd be very interested to see though.

also i'm curious: what makes you think that refusing to argue with religious people is cowardly? why are you so concerned about the message that it would send? is other people's opinion of the society of concern to you? i'm not attacking you by the way, i'm genuinely curious.

Flamed Diving

aguaclara wrote: »

do you think the christian society debates whether god exists?

It doesn't matter what they debate. The very essence of this soc is a group of people who do not believe (or are unsure) of gods existence. The question is why wouldn't this society ask this question?

aguaclara wrote: »

also i'm curious: what makes you think that refusing to argue with religious people is cowardly? why are you so concerned about the message that it would send? is other people's opinion of the society of concern to you? i'm not attacking you by the way, i'm genuinely curious.

What is the point in having a society, especially one that claims to be 'freethinking', if you are simply going to hide away in rooms and pat each other on the back about your agreements? The society should not only serve the purpose of an atheist old boys club. It should serve as a forum where freethought is promoted, and that will require allowing the religious to debate their views, if they wish to.