Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
What Is This Lisbon Treaty All About?
Options
Comments
-
The best thing you can do is read the actual judgment http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1987/4.html.As a straight-up question: would all of our interaction with the EU not count as foreign policy? As in, changing the way the EU is run essentially does change our foreign policy in that we interact with foreign nations differently?
Would appreciate if you could clarify how you know it's so clear cut? I thought it'd be something that'd have to be further challenged if it were to arise.
(It should be noted that the decision was passed by one vote, and there was nearly no need for a referendum. Some legal opinion is that another SC decision would go the other way if decided today.)
It's not foreign policy per se, but rather that the state's right to determine its foreign relations that could not be given away. Only Title 3 of the Single European Act needed to be ratified.0 -
to The_Minister,
I just would like to know
1) Do you think it is democratic that 5 million people will get to vote on something that will affect 500 million?
2)Why do you think the French and Dutch governments didn't put the Lisbon Treaty to a referendum? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that the citizens of those respective states had already voted against The EU Constitution and would likely have voted No again?
3) Do you think if we had voted Yes the first time that we would get an opportunity to vote again? It doesn't seem democratic that our Government has ignored our initial decision and is now making us go to the polls again, just because we voted 'the wrong way'? Are we going to be made vote on this once a year until the Government gets the result they want?
4) If James Connolly had been fortunate enough to still be alive, how do you think he would have voted?0 -
Sorry, I don't have it to hand anymore. But what I mean is - the booklet lays out in general terms things that will change.
Yes, that is the Commissions remit.Feathers wrote:Everyone says that the No side are scaremongering- but why then do we not have a booklet that addresses each issue in turn & gives a black & white response? Surely this would clear up any issues.
There are versions available online, from SF and I'm sure other groups. The Commission has to be INDEPENDENT, so can't take say SF's line OR indeed the Govts. It's the most independent source you'll get.
The most independent body on it produced a booklet delivered to every house on the main issues.Feathers wrote:Instead, we have the Dept of Foreign Affairs, while deep in a recession, funding an "EU Matters" campaign (www.eumatters.ie) - a website, leaflets & lots of billboards and newspaper ads about how great the EU is. Give me a break! Please, will they debate this on the issues.
No doubt they will in time. Not enamored with this myself but Libertas ran a campaign like this last time. The DFA or Govt. do not have to be impartial.Feathers wrote:To clarify my position, I'm not voting on Lisbon based on abortion.
But a lot of other people have expressed concerns. The head of the referendum commission was asked, straight out - he couldn't answer. If the position was that clear, why couldn't the legally trained, high court judge figure it out?
Do you have a source for this? Plenty would be willing to seize on this so I assume it can be found easily. Nice 2 and the new guarantees ensure our position.Feathers wrote:AFAIK, all other EU treaties adopted needed this provision, but none of the rest were so vague on the gamut of issues they affected.
Seems similar enough, though if you can point to major differences, fair enough.
PS. I think James Connolly would far rather the EU's record on Workers rights than the Govts.!Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
0 -
TeganRainIsGod wrote: »We will never have a referendum on any EU treaty ever again. At present our Constitution obliges us to have a referendum on such treaties. If Yes wins, this will no longer be the case and the EU can pass whatever treaties they like without the Irish people ever getting to vote on whether or not it should be implemented.
How did you come about this opinion?Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.
0 -
Do you think it's democratic if we were to force other EU countries where referendums are outlawed to have a referendum just because our constitution requires it? The governments of Europe were voted in because their people chose them and trust them so therefore by voting in their governments, they were accepting the Lisbon Treaty.TeganRainIsGod wrote: »
1) Do you think it is democratic that 5 million people will get to vote on something that will affect 500 million?
That's not upto us and it wasn't the EU's choice to not allow the French and the Dutch to vote on Lisbon. It was the French government's choice.TeganRainIsGod wrote: »2)Why do you think the French and Dutch governments didn't put the Lisbon Treaty to a referendum? Do you think it might have something to do with the fact that the citizens of those respective states had already voted against The EU Constitution and would likely have voted No again?
Why would we need to vote again on Lisbon if we voted yes? If we voted yes then that means we accept everything in the Treaty. There's no need for a re-run. People voted no because they were told there were things in the Treaty that actually weren't in the Treaty and they were sceptical about Ireland losing it's commissioner. The EU saw that and addressed those concerns by giving Ireland legal guarantees that the things they were worried about weren't actually in the Treaty and that we could keep our commissioner. So we aren't voting on the same thing. We're voting on the Treaty AND the Legal Gaurantees. I think that's pretty fair.TeganRainIsGod wrote: »3) Do you think if we had voted Yes the first time that we would get an opportunity to vote again? It doesn't seem democratic that our Government has ignored our initial decision and is now making us go to the polls again, just because we voted 'the wrong way'? Are we going to be made vote on this once a year until the Government gets the result they want?
You're trying to imply that he would vote no. What evidence do you have to back it up that he would vote in such a way or that he was against European Integration? In my opinion, he would be disheartened by some things in Ireland today, even some aspects of the EU. But he'd see how far we've come and how the EU has helped us and probably realise they were necessary sacrifices to ensure the successful continuance of the Irish State. He'd be enormously proud at how relatively Ireland and Dublin is on the International Stage.TeganRainIsGod wrote: »
4) If James Connolly had been fortunate enough to still be alive, how do you think he would have voted?0 -
Advertisement
-
The_Minister wrote: »The best thing you can do is read the actual judgment http://www.bailii.org/ie/cases/IESC/1987/4.html
Cheers for the link, will give it a read when I get a chance.The Commission has to be INDEPENDENT, so can't take say SF's line OR indeed the Govts. It's the most independent source you'll get.
The most independent body on it produced a booklet delivered to every house on the main issues.
I just mean that people seem to be very confused about what will be, what might be and what won't be affected. If there is 100% legal certainty that X will change, Y might & Z won't - that's the way that the commission should spell it out.
The booklet isn't great for that, as evidenced by the fact that a lot of people who want to know the facts on these things don't know them.No doubt they will in time. Not enamored with this myself but Libertas ran a campaign like this last time. The DFA or Govt. do not have to be impartial.
No, they don't & they aren't. But what I'm wondering is why they're devoting their attentions (and our money) to it. Cynical as I am, it smacks of the idea that it's easier to sell "What have the EU ever done for us?" to the people than the changes in Lisbon Treaty.Do you have a source for this? Plenty would be willing to seize on this so I assume it can be found easily. Nice 2 and the new guarantees ensure our position.
Listened to it on RTÉ.ie, think it was from Radio 1, though can't remember now. Believe me, I've been looking for it again since. Will send on a link if I can find it.0 -
TeganRainIsGod wrote: »Voting Yes will essentially equate to handing over power to Europe.
EU Law will supersede and overrule Irish Law.
Men like Collins, Pearse etc died for Irish freedom.
Voting Yes will mean that their deaths have been in vain.
Voting Yes mean we will lose our individual nationality.
What would James Connolly have voted for? he would have voted for Freedom!!!
Brought a tear to my eye.0
Advertisement