Firearms (Secure Accommodation) Regulations.

MIDLAND

hi guys,
section 4, 3 or more guns, a couple friends have 4 firearms, the have the proper gun boxs, but no alarms on the house,
will this be inforced straight away,?????????????

the alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service,operated by a person licensed by a private security authority and supported with gsm nobile telephone service back up signalling facilities,

rrpc

MIDLAND wrote: »

hi guys,
section 4, 3 or more guns, a couple friends have 4 firearms, the have the proper gun boxs, but no alarms on the house,
will this be inforced straight away,?????????????

the alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service,operated by a person licensed by a private security authority and supported with gsm nobile telephone service back up signalling facilities,

Firstly it's three or more restricted firearms that gets you into section 4. A restricted firearm is most pistols, semi-auto full bore rifles, semi-auto shotguns that hold more than three rounds etc.

Secondly, this will be enforced when they apply for the new licence.

Thirdly, this is totally in the wrong place. This is the 'For Sale or Wanted' forum.

MIDLAND

rrpc wrote: »

Firstly it's three or more restricted firearms that gets you into section 4. A restricted firearm is most pistols, semi-auto full bore rifles, semi-auto shotguns that hold more than three rounds etc.

Secondly, this will be enforced when they apply for the new licence.

Thirdly, this is totally in the wrong place. This is the 'For Sale or Wanted' forum.

SORRY,CAN I MOVE THIS THREAD TO SHOTTING,

IRLConor

Moved.

Half-cocked

3 or more unrestricted firearms will require an alarm - doesn't have to be monitored. You can get cheap 1 or 2 zone alarm and stick a sensor to the safe or in the room where it is and you will be compliant.

bunny shooter

Half-cocked wrote: »

3 or more unrestricted firearms will require an alarm - doesn't have to be monitored. You can get cheap 1 or 2 zone alarm and stick a sensor to the safe or in the room where it is and you will be compliant.

TBH you would be better off chatting to your CPO 1st as to what he/she will accept.

rrpc

Half-cocked wrote: »

3 or more unrestricted firearms will require an alarm - doesn't have to be monitored. You can get cheap 1 or 2 zone alarm and stick a sensor to the safe or in the room where it is and you will be compliant.

Have you not read SI/307?

Quantity|Requirement
One non-restricted shot-gun.|The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.
One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms.|Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.
Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms.|Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621
Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place.|In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.


And these are the minimum standards for secure storage.

moose112

Am i reading it right so that you don't need a safe for two non-restricted firearms.

No6

moose112 wrote: »

Am i reading it right so that you don't need a safe for two non-restricted firearms.

Afraid not moose it three or fewer, one was fewer than three last time I checked!!. I do wish though they would write these things in readable english, the what is or isn't restriced being a case in point!!!

johngalway

moose112 wrote: »

Am i reading it right so that you don't need a safe for two non-restricted firearms.

If you've got one shotgun, you don't need a safe. (That is, one non restricted shotgun).

If you've got one or more shotguns, or one or more of anything else, you do need a safe.

Confused yet?

Half-cocked

rrpc wrote: »

Have you not read SI/307?

Quantity|Requirement
One non-restricted shot-gun.|The shot-gun shall be disassembled and each part shall be stored securely and separately when not in use. The trigger housing shall be secured against use with an appropriate trigger lock.
One restricted firearm or three or fewer non-restricted firearms.|Each firearm shall be stored securely in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure.
Two restricted firearms, or more than three non-restricted firearms.|Each firearm shall be stored in a gun safe which complies with BS 7558 and which shall be securely fixed to a solid structure. The place in which the firearms are stored shall have an alarm fitted and the external doors to the place shall be fitted with locks which comply with BS 3621
Three or more restricted firearms or six or more firearms, of any type, kept in the same place.|In addition to the standards specified at reference number 3, the place in which the firearms are stored shall have an intruder alarm system, installed and maintained by installers licensed by the Private Security Authority, which complies with I.S. EN 50131 or an equivalent standard approved by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána. The alarm shall be connected to a monitoring service, operated by a person licensed by the Private Security Authority, and supported with GSM Mobile telephone service back up signalling facilities.


And these are the minimum standards for secure storage.

Yes, I have read it. I said 3 or fewer unrestricted firearms would not require a monitored alarm system - I'm assuming that's what the O.P. was enquiring about? As his mates have 4 or more, they will need an alarm.
He doesn't say if any are restricted so I don't know why you assume they are? Maybe because he refers to section 4? I(perhaps wrongly) though he was refering to the wrong section and should have been looking at section 3. I'm assuming they aren't restricted as the vast majority of firearms out there aren't. Perhaps the O.P. will enlighten us:)

As for minimum standards, I was told by my rep on the FCP and also by the NARGC that the Gardai would be required to prove a demonstrable higher crime rate in an area before they could demand higher security from firearms owners in that area.

I suppose this will be clarified when the guidelines are published. Otherwise we're back to square one with individual F.O.'s free to make whatever demands they want on us. 'Ye want a license for a starting pistol?, well you'd better turn your house into a mini Fort Knox with 24 hour security patrols around the perimeter of your garden ete etc'

rrpc

Yes, he had us all confused.

Still no harm to re-state the list.

Half-cocked

rrpc wrote: »

Yes, he had us all confused.

Still no harm to re-state the list.

And have a copy ready when your FO calls to inspect.....

4gun

bunny shooter wrote: »

TBH you would be better off chatting to your CPO 1st as to what he/she will accept.

mine was, are you not allwed up to 5 guns on this section so long as yuor safe can hold all

MIDLAND

hi guys, & half-cocked,
just some information on the firearms ,

no 1 friend, 2 x under/over shot guns, 1 x .22 std rifle, 1 x 22 hornet rifle

no 2 friend, 1 under/over shot gun 1 x semiauto shot gun, 1 .22 std rifle. 1 x 243 rifle,
all used for vermin control , and the pheasant/ duck season

rrpc

MIDLAND wrote: »

hi guys, & half-cocked,
just some information on the firearms ,

no 1 friend, 2 x under/over shot guns, 1 x .22 std rifle, 1 x 22 hornet rifle

no 2 friend, 1 under/over shot gun 1 x semiauto shot gun, 1 .22 std rifle. 1 x 243 rifle,
all used for vermin control , and the pheasant/ duck season

Both appear to come under section three: Safe and alarm, but not monitored.

Can a mod close the brackets on the title?

Re alarms, does there exist a minimum standard for non monitored alarms? Not an issue for me, but I'm just wondering if people will be getting away with the Argos alarms and the ones from ebay..

rrpc

Deleted User wrote: »

Can a mod close the brackets on the title?

Re alarms, does there exist a minimum standard for non monitored alarms? Not an issue for me, but I'm just wondering if people will be getting away with the Argos alarms and the ones from ebay..

Apparently not. No standard mentioned.

G17

rrpc wrote: »

Apparently not. No standard mentioned.

Bit of a jump from Argos alarm to GSM monitored IMO.:(

That alarm guy in Wexford is going to make a killing on this!

Rovi

G17 wrote: »

Bit of a jump from Argos alarm to GSM monitored IMO.:(

That's my angle over in the New Statutory Instruments thread: there's a very hefty jump (in both sophistication and cost) in the security requirements between levels 3 and 4.
A home-brewed/kit (Ebay, Argos, hardware shop) system, with no requirement for any sort of professional installation/certification or monitoring appears to be acceptable for level 3, while level 4 requires professional installation and certification of both the hardware and the monitoring, along with wireless backup of the landline (GSM link as a minimum).
My system currently only lacks the wireless backup so I'll be adding that as soon as possible, but there are plenty of people out there who will fall into level 4, and for whom their previously acceptable (and CPO inspected, in most cases) self/non-professionally installed self-monitored, but non-certified system is no longer acceptable, and these people are now looking at trying to get their existing system certified and monitored by someone 'professional', or else replace the whole thing with something that IS acceptable.

Or, as I suspect is at the root of the big disparity between the requirements of the two levels, they'll dispose of the firearms that move them into level 4.

johngalway

There may be clarification on what standard the Gardai will accept when they publish their guideline? A bit like the question on who can be a referee, I figure (or maybe hope) a lot will be clarified there.

Sparks

Clarification isn't much use here john - if it's in an SI, then the Super hasn't got much in the way of wiggle room. Technically, yes, the Super could just say "nuts to that" and authorise you for whatever non-restricted firearms you wanted, but (a) that route has limitations if you ever leave the district or the Super ever moves on; and (b) it's not very likely to happen in the first place.

Basicly, these are the regulations; the guidelines won't overrule them.

I would imagine though, if your firearm was robbed or whatever from your house and your alarm was some self installed ebay from HK type thing, then your insurance company and local super won't look to happily on you.

Sparks

They'd have no grounds to do so zara, since they're meant to inspect and approve that alarm, and if they do so (and assuming you'd turned it on and locked the doors and windows before going out), you're not culpable for it being defeated by a determined thief.

I mean, that'd be like them getting annoyed if someone put a gun to your head and you gave them the key to the safe...

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Clarification isn't much use here john - if it's in an SI, then the Super hasn't got much in the way of wiggle room. Technically, yes, the Super could just say "nuts to that" and authorise you for whatever non-restricted firearms you wanted, but (a) that route has limitations if you ever leave the district or the Super ever moves on; and (b) it's not very likely to happen in the first place.

Basicly, these are the regulations; the guidelines won't overrule them.

But these regulations are minimum standards. Higher standards can be required.

Sparks

Yeah rrpc, but I didn't think that that up was the way john was hoping the requirements would go

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Yeah rrpc, but I didn't think that up was the way john was hoping the requirements would go

No harm reminding him so

johngalway

Wellllllllllllllllll......................

I kinda figure if you buy an alarm online from HK and it's got a picture of Nemo, or Mickey Mouse on the cover they're not gonna approve it.

I expect there'll be at minimum an "unofficial" standard at the very least. (You know, the way the more things change, the more they stay the same?).

I wouldn't go rushing out to buy anything just now, to be safe.

Grizzly 45

Have a look folks on the private Security Authorithy website www.psa.gov.ie and have alook at the lists of liscensed intruder alarm installers, find one in your area,and get a price for an installation and proof that they meet the ISEN50131 standard.
Then find off them who does their alarm monitoring or back to the PSA for an approved alarm monitoring company.ASK for their certs and references.A good security company will be only too happy to prove their qualifications and references.
With abit of shopping around,I reckon the price will be alot less under the 1500 eircom price.And that is an outlandish quote in these times.

Folks,in fairness, having a proper alarm system that is monitored and installed is actualy a good investment anyway.If anything goes wrong with it's installation,like your house catching fire![has happened] thru cowboy or crap DIY Kits or installation of CCTV or Alarm systems,you have some sort of comeback.

Not to mind your guns going walkies,and the hassle of re applying,finding and financing the trauma and shte of dealing with the aftermath of a burgalry,can stay with you for years... God knows how bad it can be if it is an armed robbery.

rrpc

Except that it's actually: www.psa.gov.ie :eek:

IRLConor

rrpc wrote: »

Except that it's actually: www.psa.gov.ie :eek:

That's fixed now.

Grizzly 45

Oooppss.Sorry bout that.:o Thanks guys.

altor

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Have a look folks on the private Security Authorithy website www.psa.ie and have alook at the lists of liscensed intruder alarm installers, find one in your area,and get a price for an installation and proof that they meet the ISEN50131 standard.
Then find off them who does their alarm monitoring or back to the PSA for an approved alarm monitoring company.ASK for their certs and references.A good security company will be only too happy to prove their qualifications and references.
With abit of shopping around,I reckon the price will be alot less under the 1500 eircom price.And that is an outlandish quote in these times.

Folks,in fairness, having a proper alarm system that is monitored and installed is actualy a good investment anyway.If anything goes wrong with it's installation,like your house catching fire![has happened] thru cowboy or crap DIY Kits or installation of CCTV or Alarm systems,you have some sort of comeback.

Not to mind your guns going walkies,and the hassle of re applying,finding and financing the trauma and shte of dealing with the aftermath of a burgalry,can stay with you for years... God knows how bad it can be if it is an armed robbery.

That is good advise from Grizzly 45.
Only psa registered alarm installers can install certified alarms and only alarms certified can be monitored by a monitoring company.
House alarms got off ebay or in woodies are a waste of money and if your going to get one of these you may as well pay the extra money and get it installed by a certified installer.

ayapatrick

altor wrote: »

That is good advise from Grizzly 45.
Only psa registered alarm installers can install certified alarms and only alarms certified can be monitored by a monitoring company.
House alarms got off ebay or in woodies are a waste of money and if your going to get one of these you may as well pay the extra money and get it installed by a certified installer.

just clicked on grizzlys link. its for some portable storage site:)
eircom phone watch were giving a discount of €200 until last friday.
got a quote of them and they were the most competitive. about 1200;)

altor

ayapatrick wrote: »

just clicked on grizzlys link. its for some portable storage site:)
eircom phone watch were giving a discount of €200 until last friday.
got a quote of them and they were the most competitive. about 1200;)

They always have that offer, they just say its going to end so you rush into buying the alarm off them
What where you getting for your €1200 if you dont mind me asking ?

ayapatrick

altor wrote: »

They always have that offer, they just say its going to end so you rush into buying the alarm off them
What where you getting for your €1200 if you dont mind me asking ?

of the top of my head not able to say. ill send ya a pm tomorrow;)
ps. just looked at some of your other posts! seem ta know a thing or two about alarms!

altor

ayapatrick wrote: »

of the top of my head not able to say. ill send ya a pm tomorrow;)
ps. just looked at some of your other posts! seem ta know a thing or two about alarms!

Yea do, i will tell you if your getting good value or not..
I know them inside out, so any questions you might have just ask

Cass

altor wrote: »

Yea do, i will tell you if your getting good value or not..
I know them inside out, so any questions you might have just ask

Already have eircom phone watch and monitored alarm system fitted by registered/certified company. Got a price on GSM back up and they quoted me for €7 p/m with an initial cost of €149 for the installation. With prices of €550 etc being floated i think this is great value but what do i know. I give the floor to you sir how do you think i'm fairing on this deal.

altor

ezridax wrote: »

Already have eircom phone watch and monitored alarm system fitted by registered/certified company. Got a price on GSM back up and they quoted me for €7 p/m with an initial cost of €149 for the installation. With prices of €550 etc being floated i think this is great value but what do i know. I give the floor to you sir how do you think i'm fairing on this deal.

Floor taken Just 3 questions first.. 1. How much do you pay eircom for the alarm to be monitored before the back up unit is fitted. 2. Do you have a maintenance agreement with eircom since they are monitoring your alarm and if so how much do they charge you for this. 3. What system do you have installed, hkc, simon or concord ?
Answer all 3 and i will let you know if your getting good value, regards..

Cass

Its costing €25p/m for monitoring, €7 p/m for back up. Was told maintenance is included not sure if i took him up right or wrong on that and as for the system i don't know. Only rang yesterday. Waiting on paperwork, then scheduling dept to ring, then for installer to call out. TBH i'm not over fussy on the system as long as its installed and passes mustar. Sorry i can't be more accurate.

altor

ezridax wrote: »

Its costing €25p/m for monitoring, €7 p/m for back up. Was told maintenance is included not sure if i took him up right or wrong on that and as for the system i don't know. Only rang yesterday. Waiting on paperwork, then scheduling dept to ring, then for installer to call out. TBH i'm not over fussy on the system as long as its installed and passes mustar. Sorry i can't be more accurate.

That is expensive, thats €396 for the monitoring a year :eek: I do a maintenance and monitoring contract for €220, have to start putting up my prices The alarm comes with maintenance for the first year but after that year you will need to take a maintenance contract out to keep your NSAI cert valid and for the alarm to be monitored by a monitoring company..
If your house is wired it will be a hkc system.. wirefree simon or concord, depending how many components.
I dont want to ask how much they are charging for your alarm...

Cass

Seems a little steep but as i've been paying for the monitoring already and have the alarm installed for nearly 3 years i was only looking at it from the point of the extra cost for the back up. Thanks for the info.

altor

ezridax wrote: »

Seems a little steep but as i've been paying for the monitoring already and have the alarm installed for nearly 3 years i was only looking at it from the point of the extra cost for the back up. Thanks for the info.

Your welcome, you never said if eircom service your alarm every year for you ?