Financial windfall for ranges........

Kramer

I've heard that many clubs are being inundated with new membership applications in recent days. Apparently, there are a considerable number of handgun owners who 1. were never members of clubs or 2. let their membership lapse as soon as they had their licenses secured.

Now, while the money is no doubt welcomed by those unscrupulous range operators, I'm told that those in positions of authority are actively monitoring developments in this area & "new" range memberships, particularly those involving handgun licences, are drawing attention.
Range/club operators should also take note - facilitating "new" members for a few €s could prove expensive in the long run...........your actions are not going unnoticed .

So, take it or leave it, this info is reliable. TBH, I'm delighted the DOJ/Gardai are taking action in this regard.

rrpc

You could see it coming a mile away and yet these people only start making enquiries now? :mad:

There are two words for them and the second one is 'off'.

It wouldn't work anyway as joining a club now won't provide a record of club membership in the past. Unless of course the club falsifies records and any club doing that deserves whatever is thrown at them.

Seriously we had the 'subsidiary licensing authority' clubs out there in the past and we'd better not see any more now.

Cass

I'm sure there are a few that may take advantage of the situation but its seems there are also some that are closing their books to new members. I don't mean blanket refusals, rather they have set a date (31 July) for renewals and new applications to be in and fully paid for and after that date no applications or late renewals will be accepted.

Makes sense to me. It covers their asses (clubs) for the reasons mentioned by rrpc. Another thing is if these people let their membership lapse in the past, its a probability that they will let it lapse again or not keep up enough visits to the range/club to justify having the firearm.

kay 9

Just curious lads, how much is club membership for the year in Tullamore? I already have a licence so I'm not lookin for help with securing a licence...just an odd saturdays target shooting..
thanks lads

4gun

On the other side I was told by a range operator that because a certin member did not buy a gun from him that he was going to refuse his membership when it was due for renewal.
This was told to me last year and I can say if the RO acted out on his threat
Also the only ammo you were alloud use on the range you had to buy from his shop,and he wasn't the cheapest either

Pistol shooters are over a barrel

I am in no way saying that ALL range operators are like this

bunny shooter

kay 9 wrote: »

Just curious lads, how much is club membership for the year in Tullamore? I already have a licence so I'm not lookin for help with securing a licence...just an odd saturdays target shooting..
thanks lads

AFAIK new member €580, renewal €285

rrpc

4gun wrote: »

On the other side I was told by a range operator that because a certin member did not buy a gun from him that he was going to refuse his membership when it was due for renewal.
This was told to me last year and I can say if the RO acted out on his threat
Also the only ammo you were alloud use on the range you had to buy from his shop,and he wasn't the cheapest either

Pistol shooters are over a barrel

I am in no way saying that ALL range operators are like this

It was always thus where a range operator was a firearms dealer. IMO as long as people know and understand in advance that them's the rules, it's fairly OK because you can then decide whether to join the club or not.

I don't think Midlands operate under that policy and I know a couple more taht I don't think do this either, so I'd shop around.

There's more than one pistol club.

Bananaman

rrpc wrote: »

It was always thus where a range operator was a firearms dealer.

Not True.

My Pistol Club is also a Pistol Range (aswell as rifle and clay range) and is a registered firearms dealer.

This makes it very handy for me, other members and those attending competitions buying ammunition, targets, cleaning gear, etc. and indeed firearms, safes, insurance, etc. if you so wish.

There is no rule that you can only use ammo that was bought in the shop.

There is no rule that you must buy your firearms from the dealer.

Your membership is not contingent on your buying a single item from the shop.

It is contingent on your attending the range and on your being safe and civil.

I'd say acting the horlicks and bad mouthng the club or its members will get you heaved out aswell.

Plenty of members have bought firearms through other channels and plenty of members frequently buy ammo through other channels.

Me, personally I don't bother. The ammo limits I have are so low it is not worth my while buying it anywhere else but some of the lads seem to have higher license limits and get a better deal on bulk purchases elsewhere.

B'Man

rrpc

I didn't single out any range B'Man, so there's no need to get all defensive.

There have been quite a few posts on this forum over the years complaining about this practice in various 'commercial' ranges.

As I said in my post, it's no biggy so long as people know and understand it beforehand.

Bananaman

I didn't single out any range

various 'commercial' ranges.

I assume youi are talking about pistol ranges? I assume by 'commercial' you mean ranges where, as a member, you pay for the use of the range, as opposed to own it.

That's a pretty small list which makes your post fairly well targetted mudslinging - hence my rebuttal.

'quite a few posts' with no names mentioned = rumour = bullsh1t.

B'Man

Rovi

I'm a member of two clubs/ranges with a gun dealership either closely related to or actually part of the premises, and neither of them have any such rules on ammunition or firearms purchase.
I don't know if I'd join a club/range that had such a policy, to be honest.

G17

rrpc wrote: »

It wouldn't work anyway as joining a club now won't provide a record of club membership in the past.

As I see it, you can join a club now and hope to get your cert issued.

Keeping of attendance records wasn't mandatory under some club authorisations so it would seem that there is a grace period from now for people joining, but come renewal time......

Many people got certs (and I'm talking pistols here) and shot them in a field or wherever, I know of many. Plinking was ok for some. But that day is officially gone. One of the main reasons for the shake up IMHO was this inconsistency. It won't affect me as I've an exhaustive attendance record and a heaving cabinet full of trophies (ok I made that bit up).

But surely the safe plinker is to be pitied somewhat? He or she will now have to go into a range proper. Especially if they have trouble getting into a club now at short notice as some clubs are notoriously difficult to get into in the first place.

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

I assume youi are talking about pistol ranges? I assume by 'commercial' you mean ranges where, as a member, you pay for the use of the range, as opposed to own it.

Assume, assume :rolleyes:

Just go up a couple of posts and there's 4gun complaining about the practice.

And here's another one:

dbar wrote: »

One thing I am not too keen on is the "Local Range Restriction" of having to buy ammo at the range. Hmm......

'Commercial' means a range that's run for commercial reasons, i.e. as a business.

And for the record, yet again, for the third time, there's nothing wrong with it.

The only issue to my mind that possibly might present a problem with a commercial range is that shortcuts may be taken to avoid costs. But that's why we have a range inspector to make sure standards are maintained.

That's a pretty small list which makes your post fairly well targetted mudslinging - hence my rebuttal.

You've made it a small list, I have not. There are and have been many commercial ranges in this country and I was a member of one of the first ones set up by Johnny Watts in Dunsink in the 1980's.

So there's no need to be so precious. :rolleyes:

Bananaman

The only issue to my mind that possibly might present a problem with a commercial range is that shortcuts may be taken to avoid costs

Horlicks.

I have no idea what kind of 'shortcuts' you might be thinking of?
Photocopying the ISSF targets rather than buying new ones?
Putting non recycling rubbish in the recycling bins?
Putting 'cheap brand' ketchup in the Heinz bottle?
??????

Or are you insinuating that safety may be compromised in the name of the almighty dollar?
If so that is an extremely dangerous accusation to be making.

Because I think that is exactly what you are trying to do - to start a stink and have it aimed at 'commercial' ranges.

As usual, without a shred of evidence bar a supposed 'official' report on boards that it is gospel.

People should not believe a word they hear on boards unless it is backed by a name or aimed at a name.

If it is backed by an alias/avatar and aimed at 'a group of which I am not a member' then IT'S MOTIVES MUST BE QUESTIONED.

B'Man

rrpc

Bananaman wrote: »

Horlicks.

Or are you insinuating that safety may be compromised in the name of the almighty dollar?
If so that is an extremely dangerous accusation to be making.

First of all it's not an accusation. But obviously as someone has peed on your strawberries this morning as you are out to have a fight with just about everything I say.

You've had a go at my last post which I've backed up with quotes and references, so having been called on that, you proceed to rubbish a valid suggestion that standards can slip where money is an issue.

There was a commercial range closed in the south of the country some time ago and safety was reportedly the issue.

And yes, I've experience of shooting on ranges that goes back over twenty years and that gives me the right to make such observations. Any aspect of commercial life that remains unregulated will see lowering of standards. It's why we have regulations in the first place.

And if people are aware that it's a possibility, they won't stick their heads in the sand and assume it's 'somebody elses problem'.

And member run clubs shouldn't feel immune to criticism either, the more we question, the higher the standards and the better the safety record.

And that's the object of the exercise. Not imagined slights for the over-sensitive.

As usual, without a shred of evidence bar a supposed 'official' report on boards that it is gospel.
People should not believe a word they hear on boards unless it is backed by a name or aimed at a name.
If it is backed by an alias/avatar and aimed at 'a group of which I am not a member' then IT'S MOTIVES MUST BE QUESTIONED.
B'Man

I have not the faintest idea what you're on about here. Seriously I don't

Grizzly 45

How?
How can you really see a return nowadays on a pretty big investment in our persecution of firearms times ,when you;

Cant run tempoary or day membership[try a shot type thing] which was and is a money earner for most ranges in more enlightned lands.

You can only attract new members,and thats pretty limited in centrefire pistols nowadays,and very doubtful with this strict Olympic disiplines as we still dont know who,what when ,where.
Have invested a lot of money ,blood,sweat and tears with setting it up,fighting beuracracy,getting permission,etc etc ad infiteum ad nauseum.
Rifle ranges INMHO are even harder because of the distances involved and the saftey area behind the backstops.
So looking at this from a BUSISNESS prespective.Which commerical ranges apprently are,in the present climate it certainly isnt profitable.
So it is understandable that somone would come up with weird and wonderful rules to try and make some bit of extra money.
Not that it is laudable,ethical or fair or that I would approve it.
But if it is a range run as a busisness,then it is the busisness of a busisness to make money.

rrpc

Purely from a business perspective, I'd have thought that clay busting would be the best option.

Not as expensive to set up a range as rifle or pistol would be.
Eats ammo, so a nice turnover to be expected there.
Doesn't suffer from the same kind of negative publicity.
No problems with pay for play as doesn't come under the range/club laws.
Doesn't seem to have planning issues either.

Noise would be the only problem; a clay range in Kerry (I think) ran into problems in this regard very recently and had to curtail its opening hours significantly.

Some issues may also arise with regard to lead pollution of ground water from lead shot. I've seen some articles on this from the US and there's been some discussion on the continent about it as well. Where planning is required, County Councils appear to be asking questions on this aspect of shooting sports, so it's wise to be prepared.

Gerri

There are and have been many commercial ranges in this country and I was a member of one of the first ones set up by Johnny Watts in Dunsink in the 1980's.

Still have a trophy somewhere from that range:D

rrpc

Gerri wrote: »

Still have a trophy somewhere from that range:D

Grand little range, pity about the equestrian centre next door :eek:

It was great to have though. even if it was only for a short while. Oh halcyon days!. I had a Unique semi-auto at the time and it was on that range that I realised it was useless.

4gun

rrpc wrote: »

It was always thus where a range operator was a firearms dealer. IMO as long as people know and understand in advance that them's the rules, it's fairly OK because you can then decide whether to join the club or not.

I don't think Midlands operate under that policy and I know a couple more taht I don't think do this either, so I'd shop around.

There's more than one pistol club.

nearest one after that would bo a 2 hr drive
Irelivant in my case I don't have a pistol,but it was handy for sighting in and practicing with the .308
the club was badly run couldn't even see targets at 100yds grass was so high didn't waste my money on them this year

4gun

These rules about buying ammo and fire arms were not pointed out as the start in the case I'm on about

Sparks

It's definitely a legitimate concern.

On the other hand, if your licence is dependant on club membership, and the club starts acting the maggot, maybe now more than 2% of the people in the sport will actually give a fish.

And who knows? If more than 2% pay any attention at club level, maybe it'll spread and more than 2% might pay any atteniton at NGB level.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

It's definitely a legitimate concern.

On the other hand, if your licence is dependant on club membership, and the club starts acting the maggot, maybe now more than 2% of the people in the sport will actually give a fish.

And who knows? If more than 2% pay any attention at club level, maybe it'll spread and more than 2% might pay any atteniton at NGB level.

Always the optimist Sparks

Sparks

Feck's sake rrpc, make up your mind!

Sparks

And it's not really optimism - if more than 2% of the shooters paid more attention at club and NGB level, we'd end up with a better situation, yes, but I'd bet euros to danishes that there'd be a bloodletting first that'd make most of what we've seen so far seem fairly tame by comparison.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Feck's sake rrpc, make up your mind!

Could I not say the same?

Or is it just dependant on the weather?

Half-cocked

Sparks wrote: »

It's definitely a legitimate concern.
And who knows? If more than 2% pay any attention at club level, maybe it'll spread and more than 2% might pay any atteniton at NGB level.

You mean it might shoot up to 2.5% or even 3%?;)

Sparks

Half-cocked wrote: »

You mean it might shoot up to 2.5% or even 3%?;)

Well, put it this way - this requires everyone to be in the club and to attend the club regularly, and the club membership is a tad pricy, and folks are going to be there regularly, so it's pretty inevitable that you're going to see a rise in complaints (which is the first step towards getting involved). And this time, IYDLIGTFO won't be an acceptable answer because folks legally cannot GTFO. At which point, things like incorporation status and membership rules and fair procedures and natural justice and due process and all that fun stuff starts getting mentioned...

...and then either you get a better club out of the whole process or everyone calls their solicitors and the club collapses...

...and about ten years later the only clubs left standing will be either run fairly for and by members or will be purely commercial ventures.

I can see a few folks thinking that that'd be an improvement, but it'll be a painful one.

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Could I not say the same?
Or is it just dependant on the weather?

No, I'm usually pessimistic. I find it saves time. It's just that sometimes a bad thing can lead to a good thing, although not always for the people directly involved. It's like evolution - it's real nice for the species, but it sucks for the individuals undergoing natural selection, pretty much by definition.

rrpc

Sparks wrote: »

Well, put it this way - this requires everyone to be in the club and to attend the club regularly, and the club membership is a tad pricy, and folks are going to be there regularly, so it's pretty inevitable that you're going to see a rise in complaints (which is the first step towards getting involved). And this time, IYDLIGTFO won't be an acceptable answer because folks legally cannot GTFO.

Well they can, because there's nothing stopping them joining another club. You'd have to say that that would be more of a pressure than the possibility of legal action which I can't see having any legs really

Half-cocked

I spoke to a clay pigeon club secretary last night and he says he's seeing a lot of lapsed members enquiring about re-joining. I wonder why?

He reckons its a good oppertunity to highlight their lack of involvment in running shoots and general work parties etc. If they want back in, they'll have to pull their weight, otherwise it's back out and a letter to their FO informing him they are no longer members. I can hear the whips cracking already:D

Sparks

rrpc wrote: »

Well they can, because there's nothing stopping them joining another club.

Except for distance. If you live in Galway and Lough Bo starts acting the maggot, where's your nearest target shooting club after that? 120km away in the midlands?

Sparks

Half-cocked wrote: »

I spoke to a clay pigeon club secretary last night and he says he's seeing a lot of lapsed members enquiring about re-joining. I wonder why?

Probably because those members haven't twigged that clay pigeon shooting is exempt from all of this...

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

Probably because those members haven't twigged that clay pigeon shooting is exempt from all of this...

To that point sparks - can you get a shotty just to bust clays, but not be a member anywhere or have permissions on any land? Strange given there's well over 1000 Joules at the muzzle with these buggers (just read the ISD!) compared to my 'restricted' device that spits out at about 6J :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Sparks

Seems a bit daft allright bigred, but that's the story.
BTW, your air pistol isn't restricted...

bigred

Sparks wrote: »

BTW, your air pistol isn't restricted...

Agreed, but I still got the 31st Oct date. Did you get the same date for your piece of Russian engineering?

Sparks

Yup bigred. I'm guessing that anyone with a pistol of any kind, and anyone with more than two firearms, got the early deadline; the onus is on the applicant to correctly identify their firearm as restricted when applying, as got noted originally last february (see the document attached to that post).

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Except for distance.

Agreed that can be a concern for some people but we (my club in Wicklow) have members from all over the country - I know one guy who travels from Mayo on a regular basis - another from Cavan - more from the four corners.

People will find a club that they like, not just the nearest one - and join that.

A club is not just a 'requirement for your license' - it has a social aspect aswell so that is a major factor.

Lads in Sligo, Mayo, Galway, Donegal, Leitrim, Roscommon, etc are lucky to have Lough Bo but they are not afraid to travel to Wicklow, Kildare, Cork, etc. for competition.

Distance is not the problem some people see it as being. It is just another of the major commitments you need to make to get into this sport.

I've travelled to Wicklow, Kildare, Cork, Northern Ireland, Germany and Austria already this year for competitions and the year is but a pup.

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Agreed that can be a concern for some people but we (my club in Wicklow) have members from all over the country - I know one guy who travels from Mayo on a regular basis - another from Cavan - more from the four corners.

And we've had WTSC members who travelled regularly from as far as Waterford. But you and I are talking about the cracked eejits there, not the average plinker
Your average rifle-shooting barrister isn't going to take kindly to being told to feck off out of the club and drive another hundred km to get to somewhere he has to go to, just because the club owner didn't like his shoes...

A club is not just a 'requirement for your license' - it has a social aspect aswell so that is a major factor.

For those who already go to the club regularly, yes.

Thing is, we're not talking about a group of new dedicated regulars suddenly turning up; we're talking about a new group of people, who just want to plink, and who are now being forced to join a club to do so. It's not the same kind of ethos we're talking about. Not to mention that what we choose to do and what we are forced to do always feel different, even when the activity is the same!