Advice needed. I've hit a wall.

seven-iron

Hey,

So I'm 159 pounds. Around 5'8/5'9ish. Male. 23. I have been going to gyms for years and I am in reasonably good shape. Have a slight belly. Know a fair bit about weight training and working out. Im no beginner but im certainly no expert. Average Joe perhaps. I manage 3-4 sessions a week. Usually do a mixture of weights and 25 mins cardio. I might do chest one day. Legs the next and so on.

The problem is I want to become lean and have a stronger look about me and not just be in reasonably good shape. I basically want to raise the bar. Get to the next level.

Any one any training advice or anything at all?
Thanks

celestial

What's your current training routine in good detail? And your diet?

the drifter

those questions should be a template for posting advice needed threads here.....

Vinny Mulvey

I would advise do weights first and then for the cardio do intervals...

ragg

The phrase Abs are made in the kitchen couldn't be more true.
You need to get the diet as tight as possible. I messed around weights for years, trying every fancy program etc. Its only when I learned about my diet that I started to make the gains I wanted.

Workout wise, i reverted back to a full body 3 days a week with moderate intensity cardio afterwards. A HIIT session once a week. My diet got a complete overhaul

Colm_OReilly

You might enjoy CrossFit. Check it out here and here. It would definitely be a step up on your training.

g'em

the drifter wrote: »

those questions should be a template for posting advice needed threads here.....

From the Charter

seven-iron

Thanks for all the feedback!

Heres what I do and im not saying its the best or right but its just I suppose what Im used to, my comfort zone.


Chest Workout.

10min warm up on cross trainer. 40-70% intensity.

Bench 40kgs. Five sets of ten.
Dumbbell flys. 10kg. 5 sets of 8.
incline with dumbbells. 15kg. five sets. 10,8,8,6,4.
Press-ups till failure. two sets.
Tricep pulldowns. 3 to 4 sets depending on tiredness levels.

15/20 mins on cross trainer.

ragg

seven-iron wrote: »

Thanks for all the feedback!

Heres what I do and im not saying its the best or right but its just I suppose what Im used to, my comfort zone.


Chest Workout.

10min warm up on cross trainer. 40-70% intensity.

Bench 40kgs. Five sets of ten.
Dumbbell flys. 10kg. 5 sets of 8.
incline with dumbbells. 15kg. five sets. 10,8,8,6,4.
Press-ups till failure. two sets.
Tricep pulldowns. 3 to 4 sets depending on tiredness levels.

15/20 mins on cross trainer.

That is way to chest heavy, how can you be lean if only train 2 body parts? You want to work everywhere, your workout is 4/5 chest

Try this
Squat (even if you only have a smith machine, it would do for now, or dumbells)
Military\ shoulder press
Deadlift
Bench press
Rows
Dips

That is a great full body workout, infinitely better then what you are doing now. Also, the word comfort zone should be banned from weight training

seven-iron

Thank you Ragg,
Could you give me a better idea of sets and reps. And do you mean to do all of that in the same day or stagger it and work on various body parts on different days of the week?


Also, As you can tell from my username im a golfer and as its coming to the end of the season i will be focusing on golf related workouts come mid sept.
For golf you need two types of strenght.
1. mobility and explosive strenght
2. core, hip and shoulder-girdle strength. Legs too.
Now MH has some great golf exercises and articles but if any one has any info that would be great.

Thanks

Bottle_of_Smoke

seven-iron wrote: »

Thank you Ragg,
Could you give me a better idea of sets and reps. And do you mean to do all of that in the same day or stagger it and work on various body parts on different days of the week?


Also, As you can tell from my username im a golfer and as its coming to the end of the season i will be focusing on golf related workouts come mid sept.
For golf you need two types of strenght.
1. mobility and explosive strenght
2. core, hip and shoulder-girdle strength. Legs too.
Now MH has some great golf exercises and articles but if any one has any info that would be great.

Thanks

Do bench press and other chest related exercises one day along with triceps

Do deadlift and other back excercises with biceps the next

Then do squats, calves and leg exercises with shoulders on the third and repeat that process

Vary it up to suit you if you wish, thats just an example, but do squats, deadlifts and bench presses on different days

itsallaboutheL

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Do bench press and other chest related exercises one day along with triceps

Do deadlift and other back excercises with biceps the next

Then do squats, calves and leg exercises with shoulders on the third and repeat that process

Vary it up to suit you if you wish, thats just an example, but do squats, deadlifts and bench presses on different days

Don't do this....

Theres no need for a bodypart split at your training level (or for your goals) , it would be counter productive if anything.

cardio,shoot me

big +1 on Ls advice, i mean one of the most sucessful noobie programs is based on doing full body workouts involving deadlifts bench and squats on the same day

Transform

Do bench press and other chest related exercises one day along with triceps

Do deadlift and other back excercises with biceps the next

Then do squats, calves and leg exercises with shoulders on the third and repeat that process

Vary it up to suit you if you wish, thats just an example, but do squats, deadlifts and bench presses on


that is the worst advice i have seen especially for a guy who has just said he want to work on his golf! Save the split programs for the bodybuilders - they have no place for someone more sports specific and i would challenge for 99% of trainee's

For golf i would recommend plenty of flexibility work especailly the hamstrings, lower back and glutes. From there rotation work like cable chops, barbell chops and general core work like decline reverse curls, plank variations etc General weights after that with full body program and intervlas for conditioning as long as you have built a base fitness first.

barred4life

ye work to much of 1 area do ye not do anything on ur biceps,triceps or lats?As for 15_20 on the cross trainner try and jog outside maybe 4 miles 3 times a wk its much more enjoyable and the results will be better anyway happy trainning

rccaulfield

I thought this fella wanted to get lean-wats all the golf workout and bodybuilding advice about lads-Research healthy eating and do the odd full body workout for yourself as a good start!

corkcomp

op, you didnt post your full diet up either as per earlier post? Diet could be the key to getting lean(er)

seven-iron

Great stuff thanks lads

OK so full body workouts.
Squats
Dead Lifts.
Bench?
Anyone any recommendeds on sets and reps and other exercises?

metamorphosis

seven-iron wrote: »

Great stuff thanks lads

OK so full body workouts.
Squats
Dead Lifts.
Bench?
Anyone any recommendeds on sets and reps and other exercises?

As corkcomp said - diet?
You really aint gonna get lean doing full body workouts while eating ****e or ineffectively. You could find yourself at a standstill very very soon

Bottle_of_Smoke

Transform wrote: »

Do bench press and other chest related exercises one day along with triceps

Do deadlift and other back excercises with biceps the next

Then do squats, calves and leg exercises with shoulders on the third and repeat that process

Vary it up to suit you if you wish, thats just an example, but do squats, deadlifts and bench presses on


that is the worst advice i have seen especially for a guy who has just said he want to work on his golf! Save the split programs for the bodybuilders - they have no place for someone more sports specific and i would challenge for 99% of trainee's

For golf i would recommend plenty of flexibility work especailly the hamstrings, lower back and glutes. From there rotation work like cable chops, barbell chops and general core work like decline reverse curls, plank variations etc General weights after that with full body program and intervlas for conditioning as long as you have built a base fitness first.

Sorry, although I quoted it I didn't see the golf bit, I was still going by his first post. What would make it terrible advice by itself if he weren't looking for golf specific advice?

itsallaboutheL

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Sorry, although I quoted it I didn't see the golf bit, I was still going by his first post. What would make it terrible advice by itself if he weren't looking for golf specific advice?

It's a bodybuilding split for advanced trainers

Bottle_of_Smoke

So is it a bad thing to do unless you're a bodybuilder? I've been doing it the last few weeks with pretty good results but I've no intention of becoming a bodybuilder. I haven't been at the gym in about a year previously. Have pretty much the same goals as the op's first post

d'Oracle

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

So is it a bad thing to do unless you're a bodybuilder? I've been doing it the last few weeks with pretty good results but I've no intention of becoming a bodybuilder. I haven't been at the gym in about a year previously. Have pretty much the same goals as the op's first post

There is a big difference between what a body builder does and what people who are training for strength and conditioning do.

Body builders like splits and isolation exercises.
People who want functional strength and conditioning want compound exercises with some power based stuff, core stability stuff and other such like.

So while its right to have DL, Bench, squats, its kind of not necessary to have bicep, tricep calf isolation stuff.

There is nothing a tricep extension will do that Bench and Dips wont do but will do better.
And I have yet to see a Bodybuilder do a powerclean.

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

There is a big difference between what a body builder does and what people who are training for strength and conditioning do.

Body builders like splits and isolation exercises.
People who want functional strength and conditioning want compound exercises with some power based stuff, core stability stuff and other such like.

So while its right to have DL, Bench, squats, its kind of not necessary to have bicep, tricep calf isolation stuff.

There is nothing a tricep extension will do that Bench and Dips wont do but will do better.
And I have yet to see a Bodybuilder do a powerclean.

Have you asked yourself why??

d'Oracle

Colm_OReilly wrote: »

You might enjoy CrossFit. Check it out here and here. It would definitely be a step up on your training.

Incidentally Colm, I clicked the link for Crossfit .com there.
The WOD was Linda.
Not scaled.

That would put the fear of bejeesus into most people.

itsallaboutheL

And how many Powerlifters do you know that do cleans for that matter??

It's like a Rally driver, racing bicycles.

cardio,shoot me

Hanley

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

Incidentally Colm, I clicked the link for Crossfit .com there.
The WOD was Linda.
Not scaled.

That would put the fear of bejeesus into most people.

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH

Thats a pretty Cool WOD actually, might have a crack off it tomorrow

EDIT: How long would that be expected to take your typical crossfitter??

itsallaboutheL

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

Hanley

One

cardio,shoot me

me, thats 2, kevpants did them once i think, so did you. Oh and if you do that tommorow then its not the WoD

BobbyOLeary

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOHHHHH

Thats a pretty Cool WOD actually, might have a crack off it tomorrow

EDIT: How long would that be expected to take your typical crossfitter??

Hard to say what a typical CrossFitter could do it in. I'd assume 40-50 minutes but I've never done the workout. Josh Everett (One of the top dogs in CF) has it in around 12 minutes if I remember right.

EDIT: Just found a guy on the games site, Russell Burger, who has it in 11:16. So sub 10 is a good time for you :pac:

itsallaboutheL

BobbyOLeary wrote: »

Hard to say what a typical CrossFitter could do it in. I'd assume 40-50 minutes but I've never done the workout. Josh Everett (One of the top dogs in CF) has it in around 12 minutes if I remember right.

EDIT: Just found a guy on the games site, Russell Burger, who has it in 11:16. So sub 10 is a good time for you :pac:

11 minutes is just disgusting!!

How many Wods have bench press in them?? Or deads for that matter?

BobbyOLeary

Bench: 2 as far as I know. Linda and another one which calls for 5 rounds of max reps bodyweight bench and then max reps pullups

Deads: ****loads. Absolutely tons of them. The deadlift is probably the most common barbell lift in CrossFit. Could be wrong on that but if it's not #1 it's #2 or 3.

11 minutes is ridiculous, even if you were just to do the thing with an empty barbell!

d'Oracle

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Have you asked yourself why??

I don't need to.
I know why.

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

I don't need to.
I know why.

well what's your ****ing point then?

d'Oracle

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

well what's your ****ing point then?

That a bodybuilder style training is not suitable to people who want to improve their athletic performance.

Obviously.

itsallaboutheL

"When was the last time you saw a bodybuilder do cleans"

Has nothing to do with athletic performance, it's just that there are more effective ways to elicit growth from the muscles involved. It has nothing to do with the point you were making


EDIT: re- bodybuilders not doing cleans.... just to make that clear

Roper

Assignment:

Sum up twitter* style, in your own words, one coherent sentence why powercleans should or shouldn't be in a programme.





*I'm actually not 100% sure what twitter is

itsallaboutheL

Roper wrote: »

Assignment:

Sum up twitter* style, in your own words, one coherent sentence why powercleans should or shouldn't be in a programme.





*I'm actually not 100% sure what twitter is

It was the stupid reference to bodybuilders not doing cleans that i was annoyed about, not his assertions on PowerCleans for athletic performance.

But my 2c if you want it is that Power Cleans should be a staple of an atheletes programme providing they're technique is SPOT ON. If not there's millions of other ways to achieve a similar effect re: triple extension, explosive power, posterior blah blah blah, kettle bell swings, snatches, cleans, dynamic box squats, clean pulls, high pulls, med ball throws, throw benches... i'm going to stop talking now before i make a fool out of myself

d'Oracle

itsallaboutheL wrote: »

Has nothing to do with athletic performance, it's just that there are more effective ways to elicit growth from the muscles involved. It has nothing to do with the point you were making

First of all, you aren't quoting me correctly.

And seeing as you clearly have no clue what point I was making, you cant really relate one to the other.

d'Oracle

Edit: I'm absolutely not arsed arguing with you.
If you would rather call me stupid than explain to BOS why you are telling him his routine is wrong, then you aren't worth keyboard depreciation.

itsallaboutheL

d'Oracle wrote: »

Oooh oh wait.

Changing your tone now aren't you?

No i'm not. Thats exactly what i was saying

Roper

I should have put a word limit on that.

I like arguments like these because they give me an insight into what websites or books people are reading at the moment. Most people aren't giving their opinion on why they think something is good or bad, right or wrong, they're giving the opinion of the last article they read. There's a difference in having read a load of stuff and actually understanding something. I know someone understands something when they can tell me what they're talking about in simple English and one sentence.

Inspector Coptoor

I think you should figure out your 1rm in the following four lifts

Overhead Press
Deadlift
Bench press
Squat

then take a look at this article and follow Jim Wendlers 5/3/1 programme.

http://www.tmuscle.com/free_online_article/sports_body_training_performance/how_to_build_pure_strength

It's the business

you're provided with a template and then you fill in the numbers that are relevant to you.

d'Oracle

Roper wrote: »

I should have put a word limit on that.

I like arguments like these because they give me an insight into what websites or books people are reading at the moment. Most people aren't giving their opinion on why they think something is good or bad, right or wrong, they're giving the opinion of the last article they read. There's a difference in having read a load of stuff and actually understanding something. I know someone understands something when they can tell me what they're talking about in simple English and one sentence.

Not as simple as that.

I wasn't espousing the benefits of power cleans.
I was pointing out that they help with athletic performance and the movement is replicable in a lot of different activities.

Bodybuilders don't do them, because bodybuilders want to build big muscles. Ergo someone who wants to get stronger and in great shape (with all respect due to bodybuilders and what they put themselves through) should not be doing bodybuilder routines.

My opinion formed from everything I have read. Including stuff you have written.

Roper

Well that's the thing, you can only trust what you've heard and read to some degree. Real understanding comes from checking and testing, asking the right people, asking more people, more checking, some trying, more testing, reassessing, then asking someone else, then checking, then testing and checking, asking....

... until you come to a point where you're happy that you've examined and tried all the methods.

Example: an acquaintance of mine (a personal trainer) is a big fan of Charles Poloquin, he's been to seminars and drank that particular Kool Aid. So when I told him that a girl who I train can't do a pull up after a year of resistance training, he was astonished, and trotted out the old "Charles says any trainer should be able to get a girl to do 12 pull ups in 12 weeks". Now the next question I asked was obvious enough- how many girls have you trained can do pull ups? The answer was 3, which when we later defined what a pull ups was, we reduced to zero.

You can easily get sucked in by what is written but unless you know from actually seeing what works, what is possible and what is just plain bull****, you can't really offer an opinion and I really, genuinely think you're are better off saying nothing and saving your typing skills for asking questions. Otherwise, you're part of the meta problem, a continuing cycle of glommed knowledge that nobody knows.

d'Oracle

Roper wrote: »

Well that's the thing, you can only trust what you've heard and read to some degree. Real understanding comes from checking and testing, asking the right people, asking more people, more checking, some trying, more testing, reassessing, then asking someone else, then checking, then testing and checking, asking....

... until you come to a point where you're happy that you've examined and tried all the methods.

Example: an acquaintance of mine (a personal trainer) is a big fan of Charles Poloquin, he's been to seminars and drank that particular Kool Aid. So when I told him that a girl who I train can't do a pull up after a year of resistance training, he was astonished, and trotted out the old "Charles says any trainer should be able to get a girl to do 12 pull ups in 12 weeks". Now the next question I asked was obvious enough- how many girls have you trained can do pull ups? The answer was 3, which when we later defined what a pull ups was, we reduced to zero.

You can easily get sucked in by what is written but unless you know from actually seeing what works, what is possible and what is just plain bull****, you can't really offer an opinion and I really, genuinely think you're are better off saying nothing and saving your typing skills for asking questions. Otherwise, you're part of the meta problem, a continuing cycle of glommed knowledge that nobody knows.

I appreciate your taking the time to put together such an eloquent post.

Someone came in, made a statement got shot down and put his hand up.
I tried to explain why people were shooting him down, with relatively simple info.

Kicker here is that I didn't at any point tell him what he should be doing, didn't suggest anything. Just pointed out why his suggestion about how OP should be training got shot down and that there is a difference between how a bodybuilder trains and how an athlete or someone looking for general good conditioning should train.

Whatsmore, I absolutely can express an opinion. Maybe I shouldn't talk about what training other people should do, and for the most part I don't.
But I can express an opinion on what I have done and am doing and what information is available to people.

I appreciate the input of the trainers who come on here, and I wish you all best of success in your business. But you don't own fitness. For every one of your trainees there are hundreds of fit strong people who had nothing to do with trainers like yourself. If I say something thats wrong, please shoot me down. Thats how a lot of people learn stuff. But don't tell me I have no opinion.

itsallaboutheL

Speaking of articles there's one on t-nation today, haven't read it yet

cardio,shoot me

its a load of bollox imo, they keep contradicting themselves, its so frekin annoying.

itsallaboutheL

cardio,shoot me wrote: »

its a load of bollox imo, they keep contradicting themselves, its so frekin annoying.

Ya you got the odd half decent bit of an article..... I just think it's funny watchin Hanley argue with Americans!!

cardio,shoot me

nah, the funniest thing is everyone licking prof X's ass