Meeting others on the green road

monument

Ddad wrote: »

Whatever you do don't engage him on the semi d thing, look what it got me;)

It's left you still in denial about the amount of people living in towns and cities?

taconnol wrote: »

I believe that urban farming, even if done by a minority, is an important part of the solution to today's food problems, as I see them.

It may be a part of the solution -- but I would see it as a very small part of it.

taconnol wrote: »

Well that's certainly a problem - ie I'm really, really sick of hearing advice on plugging out phone chargers. Then again, I have found among my friends that small steps often lead to bigger steps.

Yes, they can. But I'm seeing more and more examples of the smaller steps being used as a sign of progress, when such can be a detraction from larger steps.

Another example is the marketing of the 'Power of One' and 'Race against waste' etc which aims to promote individual level action when the ones behind such campaigns are not making the governmental-level action which is needed.

taconnol wrote: »

A few years ago I was the only one of my friends to cycle. Now all the girls have bikes and we regularly cycle over to each others' houses when we meet up.

Good on you. I'm currently trying something like that with a few of my friends and I know how hard it can be to convince some people.

Macha

monument wrote: »

It's left you still in denial about the amount of people living in towns and cities?

I'm afraid the stats show that the vast, vast majority of Irish people do not live in apartments, which means they live in houses - with gardens.

monument wrote: »

It may be a part of the solution -- but I would see it as a very small part of it.

So be it, I don't and nor do others. Community gardens and urban farming are a big part of the Transition Towns project and reducing dependency on fossil fuels. Feasta is another organisation that is very focused on food and carbon:http://www.feasta.org/food.htm. Bruce Darrell was the guy who gave the talk, excellent excellent video:

http://www.feasta-multimedia.org/2008/seminars/Bruce_Darrell.mov

Remember that agriculture is the single human activity that has the largest impact on the environment.

monument wrote: »

Another example is the marketing of the 'Power of One' and 'Race against waste' etc which aims to promote individual level action when the ones behind such campaigns are not making the governmental-level action which is needed.

Argh, I was about to say the 'one small step' campaign!! I hated it.

monument

taconnol wrote: »

I'm afraid the stats show that the vast, vast majority of Irish people do not live in apartments, which means they live in houses - with gardens.

That's not a full picture -- all you have to do is look at houses the centre of Dublin and other cities and towns and you'll find that's it much more than apartments which do not have gardens.

taconnol wrote: »

So be it, I don't and nor do others.

That's grand.

But anybody reading this thread should be no clear no how 'community gardens and urban farming' are going to make up anything but a minority of the food chain any time soon.

taconnol wrote: »

Remember that agriculture is the single human activity that has the largest impact on the environment.

Transport is in Ireland.

Macha

monument wrote: »

That's not a full picture -- all you have to do is look at houses the centre of Dublin and other cities and towns and you'll find that's it much more than apartments which do not have gardens.

Do you have proof? I have daft.ie and google maps to go by and both of them are telling me that the vast majority of available houses, even in Dublin, have gardens. Granted, urban economics means that very central houses will probably not have gardens.

But you really have yet to provide any real evidence that the majority of Irish people do not have access to a patch of land to grow things on.

monument wrote: »

But anybody reading this thread should be no clear no how 'community gardens and urban farming' are going to make up anything but a minority of the food chain any time soon.

It will not be for lack of potential, but only for lack of willpower. It is well documented that by 1945, 40% of America's fruit and vegetables were being produced in back gardens and allotments by 20 million people. I'll say it again: most of our problems are psychological, not technological.

monument wrote: »

Transport is in Ireland.

Nope, sorry it's the entire system of agriculture, including its relevant transport pollutions. Also, I'm talking about all impacts on the environment, not just carbon emissions. But even at that, the latest figures released by the EPA for 2007 shows Agriculture as having significantly higher carbon emissions than transportation.

monument

taconnol wrote: »

Do you have proof? I have daft.ie and google maps to go by and both of them are telling me that the vast majority of available houses, even in Dublin, have gardens. Granted, urban economics means that very central houses will probably not have gardens.

But you really have yet to provide any real evidence that the majority of Irish people do not have access to a patch of land to grow things on.

Nor have I set out to -- I have said they do not have the kind of land that the OP talks about.

taconnol wrote: »

It will not be for lack of potential, but only for lack of willpower. It is well documented that by 1945, 40% of America's fruit and vegetables were being produced in back gardens and allotments by 20 million people. I'll say it again: most of our problems are psychological, not technological.

The world is quite a different place now. More people live in built up urban areas and commute longer distances.

Not only is the will not there, there is less chance too.

taconnol wrote: »

Nope, sorry it's the entire system of agriculture, including its relevant transport pollutions. Also, I'm talking about all impacts on the environment, not just carbon emissions. But even at that, the latest figures released by the EPA for 2007 shows Agriculture as having significantly higher carbon emissions than transportation.

Sorry, yes, you're correct. I'm not sure where I had read otherwise or how I got that into my mind -- maybe my mind confused the largest percentage with the largest percentage increase (between 1988 to 2007 emissions in farming is fell 17% while transport emissions rose 163%).

Macha

monument wrote: »

Nor have I set out to -- I have said they do not have the kind of land that the OP talks about.

But that's not what's being advocated (ahem, by me anyway). My vegetable patch is 1x3m and I have so far had about 5 medium saucepans of potatoes, 40 onions, 30 broad bean pods, 8 heads of broccoli and the beetroot is on it's way!

monument wrote: »

The world is quite a different place now. More people live in built up urban areas and commute longer distances.

I know but the fact remains that the only obstacle for most people is willpower. C'mon - admit it!! :pac:

monument wrote: »

Sorry, yes, you're correct. I'm not sure where I had read otherwise or how I got that into my mind -- maybe my mind confused the largest percentage increase with the largest percentage.

Well transport is increasing and agriculture is decreasing (but that's just carbon, not other stuff). Transport is just going to be a total mindf**k to get right - over the last 10 years we've built ourselves into sprawling low-density residential estates (with back gardens!) and now we use our cars more than anyone else in the world. The least we can feckin' do now is grow some veg in those cursed back gardens!

monument

taconnol wrote: »

I know but the fact remains that the only obstacle for most people is willpower. C'mon - admit it!! :pac:

I've already stated it's a large part of the problem, and, yes, I would say the main part for many.

taconnol wrote: »

Well transport is increasing and agriculture is decreasing (but that's just carbon, not other stuff). Transport is just going to be a total mindf**k to get right - over the last 10 years we've built ourselves into sprawling low-density residential estates (with back gardens!) and now we use our cars more than anyone else in the world. The least we can feckin' do now is grow some veg in those cursed back gardens!

Sorry to turn the tables, but I disagree how bad our car dependency is and how there are realistic solutions available within easy reach ... but that's for a different thread really

Macha

monument wrote: »

Sorry to turn the tables, but I disagree how bad our car dependency is and how there are realistic solutions available within easy reach ... but that's for a different thread really

Ok different thread but:
-we have one of the highest rates of car usage (different from ownership) in the world
-we have this low density urban sprawl - very, very difficult to retrofit unless we start knocking down houses
-this makes public transport/cycling very financially unviable

I did a stint in the DTO and there were some in there that were very disheartened at the task ahead.

djpbarry

Ddad wrote: »

I''ll simplify it, in the 2006 census 6 in 10 people lived in aggregate town areas. 4 in 10 lived in rural areas. Hardly the vast vast majority, a majority yes, a vast majority no.

I’m pretty confused at this point – you said that “the vast, vast majority of people in Ireland do not live in towns and cities”, but now you’re producing stats that show the majority of people do live in towns and cities?!?

Ddad wrote: »

You can grow a barrel of potatoes, all of the herbs you'll need and some fruit on the bacony of an apartment.

That’s one hell of a balcony, considerably larger than most that I’ve seen. I have barely enough room to grow some herbs on mine, which is essentially a glorified windowsill.

taconnol wrote: »

The crux of your argument seems to be that people will not want to grow their own food. But there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Again, I'm not saying everyone will want to grow their own, but a look at the lengthy waiting lists for allotments is proof that there is definitely a demand and an interest from members of the public.

Again, based on the number of people I know who would struggle to put together a basic meal, I find it very hard to believe that anything beyond a small minority of the population of this country are prepared to grow their own ingredients.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Again, based on the number of people I know who would struggle to put together a basic meal, I find it very hard to believe that anything beyond a small minority of the population of this country are prepared to grow their own ingredients.

I'm sorry djpbarry but your anecdotal evidence is not exactly conclusive. I'm sure there are many people out there who can't cook or grow veg. But that's exactly what getgrowing and other initiatives are about: increasing demand.

There are other things the government can do as well. Let's see how many people get interested in growing their own when all the externalities of standard food are internalised and they actually have to pay for them, eg the introduction of a carbon tax. Food is too cheap these days it it doesn't reflect it's value.

Edit: BTW, this is a very good article by Michael Pollan on the phenomenon of TV cooking shows:

Great quote:

So cooking matters — a lot. Which when you think about it, should come as no surprise. When we let corporations do the cooking, they’re bound to go heavy on sugar, fat and salt; these are three tastes we’re hard-wired to like, which happen to be dirt cheap to add and do a good job masking the shortcomings of processed food. And if you make special-occasion foods cheap and easy enough to eat every day, we will eat them every day. The time and work involved in cooking, as well as the delay in gratification built into the process, served as an important check on our appetite. Now that check is gone, and we’re struggling to deal with the consequences.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/magazine/02cooking-t.html

Ddad

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m pretty confused at this point – you said that “the vast, vast majority of people in Ireland do not live in towns and cities”, but now you’re producing stats that show the majority of people do live in towns and cities?!?
That’s one hell of a balcony, considerably larger than most that I’ve seen. I have barely enough room to grow some herbs on mine, which is essentially a glorified windowsill.
Again, based on the number of people I know who would struggle to put together a basic meal, I find it very hard to believe that anything beyond a small minority of the population of this country are prepared to grow their own ingredients.

I covered the first point previously. I regret it confused you.

I'm sorry you have a small balcony. I've seen bigger. I've grown the spuds and fruit and herbs in just over a sq metre.

I'll stress again that nobody has claimed that the majority of people in this country want to produce any or all of their food. I'd also agree with you that there is a shocking drop off in basic life skills in Ireland.

People who go to the effort of producing their own food, learn to cook it. The two go hand in hand. I'd agree with you that the majority of people in this land have no interest in growing theor own food. I'm in an estate of 50 houses and two of us do any food based gardening. It is choice though for the majority of people, It's also choice to learn to cook, some people just don't want to.

I read an interesting report that the majority of viewers of cookery reports in England had no interest in learning to cook, they valued the programs as entertainment not as educational tools. Food and it's production in first world societies is viewed in hard economic terms, is couched with nutritionist garbage (Gillian McKeith, "this will oxygenate your blood").

Taconnol has stated better than I can the benefits of grow your own and I'd hope at this point we can agree that the majority of people in Ireland don't do that because they choose not to. Not that they can't.

I don't think it's a green smokescreen, it doen't stop me doing all of the other green things I get up to.

I've my mind on other things so my arguments aren't as cogent as I'd like so let me ask.

Do you think the majority of people in this island have the opportunity to grow their own?

Do you think it's a good or a bad thing?

monument

Ddad wrote: »

I'm sorry you have a small balcony. I've seen bigger. I've grown the spuds and fruit and herbs in just over a sq metre.

Again: Many apartments / flats don't have a balcony and most that do have very small ones.

djpbarry

taconnol wrote: »

I'm sorry djpbarry but your anecdotal evidence is not exactly conclusive.

No, it’s not, but quantifying exactly how many people in this country cook on a regular basis is a difficult task, largely because people often answer dishonestly or because different people have different ideas of what constitutes a ‘home-cooked meal’. But there are indicators, both direct, such as the research I linked to earlier, and indirect, such as the layout of a typical supermarket or the growth in the ‘ready meals’ industry.

djpbarry

Ddad wrote: »

People who go to the effort of producing their own food, learn to cook it.

Probably, but, if we choose at random an individual who rarely cooks, I personally can’t see them being terribly interested in growing their own food.

Ddad wrote: »

Do you think the majority of people in this island have the opportunity to grow their own?

Yes, most people could probably grow something if they put their minds to it.

Ddad wrote: »

Do you think it's a good or a bad thing?

Well, that depends. Hypothetically speaking, suppose everyone in the country is encouraged to grow as much of their own food as they can and suppose that the entire population duly obliges (stay with me!). You then have an entire population accustomed to having their own plot of land. Now for me, I’m not sure that’s a good thing, because, as taconnol has already alluded to, the population in this country is already too thinly spread for the efficient provision of services such as public transport – I don’t want to see that problem exacerbated. The distribution of the population in the Netherlands, for example, makes a lot more sense, where you’ve got four cities in The Randstad surrounding a relatively homogenous agricultural heartland.

zagmund

This discussion is making my head spin . . .

djpbarry - you have to consider that the layout of supermarkets tells you *nothing* about the shopping, growing, cooking or eating habits of people who don't shop there. And there's no point argung that "most people shop in supermarkets, don't they ?" because all those people who do grow their own, shop local, reduce their consumption, etc . . . don't show up on the radar there. You'll be into the whole discussion about "the vast majority of people" thing again and my head will start spinning again.

z

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Well, that depends. Hypothetically speaking, suppose everyone in the country is encouraged to grow as much of their own food as they can and suppose that the entire population duly obliges (stay with me!). You then have an entire population accustomed to having their own plot of land. Now for me, I’m not sure that’s a good thing, because, as taconnol has already alluded to, the population in this country is already too thinly spread for the efficient provision of services such as public transport – I don’t want to see that problem exacerbated. The distribution of the population in the Netherlands, for example, makes a lot more sense, where you’ve got four cities in The Randstad surrounding a relatively homogenous agricultural heartland.

Are you really arguing that encouraging people to grow their own food is a bad thing because it will encourage people to want to have their own plot of land?

Oh lordy, where do I begin? This is just getting a tiny bit ridiculous.

Ddad

Agreed, Is it me or is this going round in circles, we're a long long way away from the OPs original post anyway.

djpbarry

zagmund wrote: »

djpbarry - you have to consider that the layout of supermarkets tells you *nothing* about the shopping, growing, cooking or eating habits of people who don't shop there.

Fair point.

zagmund wrote: »

And there's no point argung that "most people shop in supermarkets, don't they ?" …

Why? We are speaking of the entire population of the country, after all.

taconnol wrote: »

Are you really arguing that encouraging people to grow their own food is a bad thing because it will encourage people to want to have their own plot of land?

I said that, in the extreme case were everyone in the country took to growing their own food, if it were to result in an even lower population density in this country then it could have negative consequences. Anyway, if you encourage someone to grow their own food and they think it’s a good idea, surely the next logical step is for them to search for a plot of land to plant their veg? I’m not sure why that is such a ridiculous conclusion?

Ddad

. Anyway, if you encourage someone to grow their own food and they think it’s a good idea, surely the next logical step is for them to search for a plot of land to plant their veg? I’m not sure why that is such a ridiculous conclusion?[/QUOTE]

I see where your coming from but it's a flawed logic. People who wish to get a plot of land to grow their own get allotments. Allotments by their nature tend to be transient with lifespans that seldom exceed 20 years. The land typically gets redeveloped in time (particularly in urban areas) and the allotments tend to get allocated on other available patches of council land. In recent years private allotments on farm land have opened up but they won't/can't affect the pattern of settlement in the country.

In the extreme case that they decide they want more they purchase hobby farms or houses on large plots. The number of people that do so in Ireland with the intention of producing food for themselves, is negligible though due to the cost of land within striking distances of urban areas (where you'd have to work, to actually make a living). It might be a contributory reason to buying a house with a larger garden but seldom the main one.

I'd say it's far more likely people buy/build houses with land to keep horses than to raise food.

I also agree that allotments or other patches of land might end up being outside the reach of public transport; but thats more of a planning issue, for the ost part allotments end up within striking distance of urban areas.

The "in extremis" possibility that we'll all end up living on large well tended plots, communing with nature and miles from urban centres is happening; but the well tended plots are lawns and the motivations for this pattern of settlement are many and varied but small scale agriculture is well down the list.

zagmund

"Anyway, if you encourage someone to grow their own food and they think it’s a good idea, surely the next logical step is for them to search for a plot of land to plant their veg" . . . and next thing you know we'll be surrounded by commnuists, hippies and assorted long haired people. We can't be having that.

I'm sorry, I'm just finding it hard to take this thread seriously. If people want to continue discussing this seriously I may have to stop reading it.

z

Ddad

Sure you know yourself Zagmund, anything to pass the time;)

monument

zagmund wrote: »

This discussion is making my head spin . . .

djpbarry - you have to consider that the layout of supermarkets tells you *nothing* about the shopping, growing, cooking or eating habits of people who don't shop there. And there's no point argung that "most people shop in supermarkets, don't they ?" because all those people who do grow their own, shop local, reduce their consumption, etc . . . don't show up on the radar there. You'll be into the whole discussion about "the vast majority of people" thing again and my head will start spinning again.

z

Shocking that we would be talking about what most people do -- ie what has the greater affect. Isn't it?

zagmund

monument wrote: »

Shocking that we would be talking about what most people do -- ie what has the greater affect. Isn't it?

In this case I meant that you would end up debating what 'most' meant like the discussion above about whether the vast marjority ot just the majority of people were urban based.

z

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Anyway, if you encourage someone to grow their own food and they think it’s a good idea, surely the next logical step is for them to search for a plot of land to plant their veg? I’m not sure why that is such a ridiculous conclusion?

Ah but it is

You see having your own little kitchen garden isn't the only possibility. There are other options like allotments, on disused land, by canals and in parks. Then there is the option of a community garden that many people are involved in on larger patches of land, again in allotments, disused land, by canals and in parks. Then you have balconies, window sills and pots. And then patios and gardens.

Before you argue against it, all these things already exist, even in Dublin. And they have them in higher density places like Copenhagen, Paris and even New York.

If you want to look at more unusual ideas, try vertical farms:

http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/romses-architects-vertical-farm.php

It's possible!!

djpbarry

Ddad wrote: »

People who wish to get a plot of land to grow their own get allotments.

taconnol wrote: »

You see having your own little kitchen garden isn't the only possibility. There are other options like allotments...

Fair enough, but do we have any figures on allotment use/demand in this country? Apologies if somebody’s already produced some earlier in the thread.

djpbarry

zagmund wrote: »

I'm sorry, I'm just finding it hard to take this thread seriously. If people want to continue discussing this seriously I may have to stop reading it.

You can stop posting on it too if this is going to be the extent of your contributions.

Ddad

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough, but do we have any figures on allotment use/demand in this country? Apologies if somebody’s already produced some earlier in the thread.

I have a thesis on urban agriculture if anyones interested. Hardly any figures for UA nationwide as the modern trend of UA is in its infancy and it isn't a metric that academia or government are interested in yet.

Ddad

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough, but do we have any figures on allotment use/demand in this country? Apologies if somebody’s already produced some earlier in the thread.

The only figures I can lay my hands on are that south county Dublin county council have 240 allotments with substantial waiting lists. I'd imagine you can extrapulate that to the rest of the Dublin catchment area to get an idea of demand satified by county councils and there are a number of private operators in addition to the county councils.

Macha

djpbarry wrote: »

Fair enough, but do we have any figures on allotment use/demand in this country? Apologies if somebody’s already produced some earlier in the thread.

The most comprehensive list I've come across is here:

http://www.irishallotments.net/?page_id=11

But there would be more listed on local authority websites.

And then there are other complex/estate ones like inYork St Social Housing. I'm not sure if it's a planning principle for local authorities but Dublin City Council has included allotments in quite a few social housing Local Area Plans.

There is other evidence that demand is very high

-in the UK: http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/feb/19/national-trust-allotments
-Sargent also saying demand is high, although he doesn't cite stats/source:
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2009/05/30/story92977.asp
-500 on allotments waiting lists just in Fingal Co.Co.:
http://www.fingal-independent.ie/local-notes/high-demand-for-allotments-1488074.html

Húrin

taconnol wrote: »

And here was me thinking it was about peace and harmony :pac:

Umm, no, given that some people specialise in making and using very sophisticated weapons.

No, I appreciate the division of labour but what sort of extreme will we take it to? I'm not advocating we all go back to growing all our own food but I don't think you can deny the benefits (to environment and an individual's health and wallet) by growing food, even if its a box of herbs. Using your logic, where exactly does the outsourcing stop?

I'm not denying any of that.

Er...it isn't a pretence, it's a case of "anything is better than nothing". What exactly is your problem with someone giving it a go? I only had herbs for a while until I mustered up the courage to plant a few vegetables.

There is no evidence that I'm against people growing their own veg. I do it myself. I warn against people overestimating how much of their food supply their allotment will provide them with.

And can I ask for a source for your last stat there?

Somewhere on Sharon Astyk's site. I'll look.

taconnol wrote: »

Oh please do tell us what the 'real solutions' are.

I would suggest, that the residents of an apartment block getting together and sorting out some land for themselves to grow veg for themselves is more of a solution than each individual planting some herbs in a box on a concrete balcony.

taconnol wrote: »

I would strongly disagree that it is impractical for the majority to grow any food at all. This is the land of the semi-d. The vast majority of Irish people have a back garden.

You are right there. In the last emergency most Irish and British families grew some of their own food. The veg they grew amounted to just 10% of national production (source Rob Hopkins) but it was the tenth that had most of the vitamins in it.