College Green - the post mortem

KC61

gurramok wrote: »

I concur with furtzy, some buses do rest there for long periods for whatever reason, day or night. Its a guessing game as to whether buses are going to pull out or not as they do not have their hazards on and sometimes never indicate.

The result is that 2 lanes are taken up for traffic turning left onto Dolier st which is ridiculous. (might be better now that the bus gate prevents the other lanes been used by cars!)

Buses stop in D'Olier Street to unload passengers and pick up more ones. For the Lucan Corridor routes (25/A, 26, 66/A/B and 67/A) their last set down stop is D'Olier Street, however their terminus and parking area is Pearse Street opposite the Garda Station.

As someone who travels home from D'Olier Street on a regular basis I am well acquainted with the routes stopping there, and it's true to say that the stops can be genuinely very busy with passengers getting off and on the buses.

KC61

J_Dublin15 wrote: »

O'Connell Street Nortbound was pretty heavy half 5 tonight, possibly the worst I've seen it to be honest, Soutbound it was pretty good however.

The issue at D'Olier street often is a 46A goes from Mountjoy Square with pax on, the inspector there gets on and hold the bus from anywhere between 5-10 minutes on occasions.

Indeed he may but that stop is the far end of D'Olier Street and is not going to block the junction with Townsend Street as being suggested.

The issue is the number of routes servicing the stops on the street. And I've already pointed out that this is (in part) due to Dublin Bus losing many stops in other locations.

markpb

gurramok wrote: »

Just got back from Amiens st southbound(passing thru at about 5:40pm), it was blocked all the way up to the Five Lamps and passed it, first time in many months. I couldn't pinpoint why, no obvious reason.

J_Dublin15 wrote: »

O'Connell Street Nortbound was pretty heavy half 5 tonight, possibly the worst I've seen it to be honest

U2 concert.

J_Dublin15

markpb wrote: »

U2 concert.

Yeah, of course, silly me,

gurramok

markpb wrote: »

U2 concert.

U2 concert is northbound, not southbound!!

Feck it, i'll report on whats it like tomorrow without any concert!

Flukey

I spoke to a 145 driver before getting off and asked how the new system had worked today, as I was only getting on at St. Stephen's Green outbound. He said there were some problems up around the taxi rank near the Gresham, that the quays were very slow and that it didn't seem to be working very well. I suppose it'll take a few days to sort it out.

As to the general situation relating to buses through the centre of the city, they could ease it a bit. There are too many using O'Connell Street. For buses that are going right across the city, they could look at a few other routes. Maybe it will have to wait until the Samuel Beckett bridge opens, but they should put some of those buses across bridges east of O'Connell Bridge. Take the likes of the 13 as an example. Couldn't it, and others, go across Butt Bridge and head up Gardiner Street and head into Dorset Street that way? It is coming in from the east side, up O'Connell Street and then back out, when a more direct route is available. It wouldn't put out passengers that actually did want to get off on O'Connell Street too much. You could even have some buses coming in from the southside, turning right just after Leeson Street Bridge and going onto Fitzwilliam Street - which strangely for such a significant street and blindingly obvious link, has no regular buses - right down to Merrion Square and doing something similar to cross the Liffey over the the Butt or Becket Bridge. The likes of the 11 would be a good candidate for that, as it is heading towards Dorset Street too. Again it wouldn't discommode those heading for the centre of the city too much. It could work for Airport buses too. Ideally you'd want the 16A and 746 going through the very centre of the city, but you would still have them close to the centre and they'd be passing Busaras and Connolly Station, so they could cross the Liffey east of O'Connell Bridge too. It would be easy for the 746, as it could just turn down towards Fitzwilliam Street after coming over Leeson Street Bridge. The 16 and 16A would take a bit more work, but you could find a good route, maybe along the canal or across Hatch Street, for it to get it to cross over the Butt or Beckett Bridge. You could at least have some of their buses or variations doing that, if not every 11A/B, 13/A, 16/A and 746.

It is not ideal for those that wanted to go to the centre of the city, as it is a bit far from the centre, but if they got rid of that ridiculous toll on the East Link, that could open up a whole new corridor for cross city bus routes. Looking westward, there could be opportunities for some routes to similarly avoid the city centre, using Church Street, Bolton Street and onto the Dorset Street or up through Phibsboro and on to the northern suburbs. In conclusion, maybe it is all waiting on the Beckett Bridge, but there are plenty of options for buses to cross the Liffey at points other than O'Connell Bridge, without putting passengers out too much.

sdanseo

faceman wrote: »

There should be no bus terminus in the city centre whatsoever. It makes no sense.

With the exception of Nitelink I agree completely. Amalgamate city centre to Northside routes with matching city to Southside routes - eg

41 and 46A - Dun Laoghaire to Swords

etc.

The result will probably be a slight net gain on drivers and buses, and with any luck you wont need to pay 4.40 for the whole trip but maybe 3-4. I still maintain the best way to control traffic in Dublin is toll heavily those that make journeys in BOTH rush hours during the day; this allows for people who need to bring their car in for use during the day where the office is a base or whatever.

Unfortunately this would be unfair until capacity on the DART and LUAS is increased significantly.

Cool Mo D

The problem with that idea is that it will be very difficult to set accurate departure times from the city centre, because that would be the middle of the route. It's a great idea for all high frequency routes you don't need a timetable for though - every 15 minutes or more say. The less regular long distance services could then terminate at a few termini - Ringsend, Broadstone, Summerhill, maybe around Connolly, or Parnell Square.

I think that there should be two main types of Dublin Bus services - frequent QBC services that only run the length of one QBC, then through town, and out another one, every 10 minutes or more. No detours through housing estates, no route variations - simple high frequency services.

These could be supplemented by long distance rapid-type services (long distance = outside the M50, Swords, Blanch, Lucan, Clondalkin, North Wicklow, and past the end of a QBC) The long distance services would stop far out, then run onto a QBC, make one stop at the start before running mostly non-stop into a city terminus. Local and suburb to suburb services would fill in the gaps for areas not near a QBC, or for Dublin bus travel not involving the city centre.

Also, while I'm dreaming, Dublin Bus would put a single map on their website showing all the routes of all frequent services across the capital, preferably with stops/stages also marked.

faceman

sdonn wrote: »

With the exception of Nitelink I agree completely. Amalgamate city centre to Northside routes with matching city to Southside routes - eg

41 and 46A - Dun Laoghaire to Swords

etc.

The result will probably be a slight net gain on drivers and buses, and with any luck you wont need to pay 4.40 for the whole trip but maybe 3-4. I still maintain the best way to control traffic in Dublin is toll heavily those that make journeys in BOTH rush hours during the day; this allows for people who need to bring their car in for use during the day where the office is a base or whatever.

Unfortunately this would be unfair until capacity on the DART and LUAS is increased significantly.

I completely agree. How is it the powers that be in Dublin Bus and DCC dont get this?

Probably because they dont need to get the bus to work.

They also need to stop sending so many buses up Dame St. Many of the routes travel up there needlessly.

If you ask me, the issue with traffic on Dame St/College Green is in some part the fault of Dublin Bus and DCC.

cast_iron

40 mins to get off N4 Chapelizod bypass inbound to roundabout at Kilmainham.

I (used to) do this in 90 seconds every day.

No apparent reason except for the quays being backed up - now that a huge amount of College Green traffice has to divert via the quays.

Stark

There was also a little matter of a U2 concert. I believe most of the concert traffic was directed down the N4 towards town.

Maldini2706

It's not a case of being directed, most people just take that route. Any time there's anything on in Croke Park the North Quays and St. Johns Rd get jammed. It even happens for some of the o2 gigs and that's "only" 9-14,000 there were 80,000 in Croker!

Stark

Well there were signs up at the Red Cow saying "Concert traffic take M50 north". Not if there were further signs asking people to get off the M50 at the N4. They could have done with more Gardaí on duty but they all seemed to be busy at the non-event at IKEA!

KC61

sdonn wrote: »

With the exception of Nitelink I agree completely. Amalgamate city centre to Northside routes with matching city to Southside routes - eg

41 and 46A - Dun Laoghaire to Swords

etc.

The result will probably be a slight net gain on drivers and buses, and with any luck you wont need to pay 4.40 for the whole trip but maybe 3-4. I still maintain the best way to control traffic in Dublin is toll heavily those that make journeys in BOTH rush hours during the day; this allows for people who need to bring their car in for use during the day where the office is a base or whatever.

Unfortunately this would be unfair until capacity on the DART and LUAS is increased significantly.

The real problem with that sort of idea is that it can lead to serious reliability issues with the service. Merging the 41 and 46A would create a route that would be far too long, could have serious problems with reliability and would of course have more driver changes en route, which is another factor that passengers frequently complain about.

If you used a Travel 90 Ten Journey smart card for that trip the fare is already only EUR 1.80 per trip - not EUR 4.40.

Cool Mo D wrote: »

The problem with that idea is that it will be very difficult to set accurate departure times from the city centre, because that would be the middle of the route. It's a great idea for all high frequency routes you don't need a timetable for though - every 15 minutes or more say. The less regular long distance services could then terminate at a few termini - Ringsend, Broadstone, Summerhill, maybe around Connolly, or Parnell Square.

I think that there should be two main types of Dublin Bus services - frequent QBC services that only run the length of one QBC, then through town, and out another one, every 10 minutes or more. No detours through housing estates, no route variations - simple high frequency services.

These could be supplemented by long distance rapid-type services (long distance = outside the M50, Swords, Blanch, Lucan, Clondalkin, North Wicklow, and past the end of a QBC) The long distance services would stop far out, then run onto a QBC, make one stop at the start before running mostly non-stop into a city terminus. Local and suburb to suburb services would fill in the gaps for areas not near a QBC, or for Dublin bus travel not involving the city centre.

Also, while I'm dreaming, Dublin Bus would put a single map on their website showing all the routes of all frequent services across the capital, preferably with stops/stages also marked.

The whole rationale for city centre termini is to try to provide a reliable service. Cross-city routes tend to be the ones that get hit the most by major traffic snarl-ups. Having city termini enables buses to turn around and keep a reliable and predictable service operating all day. Long distance cross-city routes do not tend to work and it becomes increasingly impossible to predict when a bus will show up the further you are along the route, e.g. trying to predict when a 16A will arrive southbound in Terenure at rush hour using the departure times from the Airport is like searching for a needle in a haystack.

There is already a precedent for the sort of services that you suggest - the 128, 140, 145, 151, all operate directly along the QBC and continue a short distance through the city centre, but again there are limits as to amount of locations that buses can terminate at. Remember that already, Dublin Bus has lost a significant number of city termini:

- Middle Abbey Street
- Lower Abbey Street (South Side)
- D'Olier Street
- College Street
- Burgh Quay
- Wellington Quay
- Fleet Street

If the LUAS link up takes place they will lose Marlborough Street as well. There are serious problems with this. The garages at Summerhill and Ringsend are limited in terms of space, and as such are probably at capacity as it is in terms of terminating routes (46A Group/63/145 at Summerhill and 50/56A/77/77A at Ringsend).

I suspect that when the Beckett Bridge opens there may be scope for some routes that currently terminate in the city centre area to be extended to the Docklands.

Posters ask why so many buses serve O'Connell Street. The answer is simple. That is where people want to go. That area is where more people get on/off buses. Buses operating via Gardiner Street were re-routed via O'Connell Street because people asked Dublin Bus to do it.

The network review following the Deloitte report should see a redesigned network take shape with a core product of direct routes along the QBCs continuing a short distance across the city, supplemented by other routes that service the areas along each QBC.

Dublin Bus is in the process of developing spider maps for the network, similar to those used in London, the first high profile version being the one used in the City Centre fare leaflet. I would imagine these will be rolled out as the network is redesigned over the next 18 months.

zagmund

KC61 - it is arguable whether most people want to go to O'Connell Street or whether they go there because the bus brings them there. If the bus brought them somewhere else nearby and they still wanted to go to O'Connell Street then they would walk the extra distance, just like people who want to go to (say) Smithfield currently get off at O'Connell Street and walk up.

I still think that a large part of the problem is to do with the number of mostly empty vehicles passing through O'Connell Street. If there was an interchange (not very easy with the existing ticketing system) then a load of buses could terminate a little further out and (full) shuttles could bring people into and through the city centre. Instead of something like 20 slightly full buses you could have 5 full shuttles. Instant congestion relief.

Sure, people would have to wait a little, but done correctly the wait wouldn't be that bad and it would reduce the time spent in traffic jams in the central area.

z

KC61

zagmund wrote: »

KC61 - it is arguable whether most people want to go to O'Connell Street or whether they go there because the bus brings them there. If the bus brought them somewhere else nearby and they still wanted to go to O'Connell Street then they would walk the extra distance, just like people who want to go to (say) Smithfield currently get off at O'Connell Street and walk up.

I still think that a large part of the problem is to do with the number of mostly empty vehicles passing through O'Connell Street. If there was an interchange (not very easy with the existing ticketing system) then a load of buses could terminate a little further out and (full) shuttles could bring people into and through the city centre. Instead of something like 20 slightly full buses you could have 5 full shuttles. Instant congestion relief.

Sure, people would have to wait a little, but done correctly the wait wouldn't be that bad and it would reduce the time spent in traffic jams in the central area.

z

The reality is that it is a combination of bus termini being removed and results of customer surveys that see so many routes serve O'Connell Street.

The 7, 14/A and 46A terminating at Parnell Square/Mountjoy Square are a knock-on result of College Street and D'Olier Street no longer being designated as termini by Dublin City Council and also as a result of feedback from customer surveys that showed that O'Connell Street was where passengers would like the bus to go to!

As for shuttles - it is tough enough to persuade people to use the bus as it is without having to force them to take two buses rather than one.

DWCommuter

I had a peak at this thread to see what could be done and all I read was what couldn't be done.:D

KC61

The network review (following the Deloitte report) that has now started is (in all probability) going to address most of the inefficiencies in the network and schedules. The entire network of routes and schedules are up for review over the next 18 months.

Hopefully what we end up with is a far more user friendly network design.

However, that depends on everyone (Dublin City Council, DoT, Gardai etc.) playing ball and political interference being kept to a minimum.

spacetweek

Very disappointed at the media coverage this bus gate has been getting.
"Traffic chaos in College Green"
"Dubliners prepare for traffic chaos"

How about this for a headline....

"College Green now far more pleasant place to be at rush hour"

Run_to_da_hills

spacetweek wrote: »

How about this for a headline....

"College Green now far more pleasant place to be at rush hour"

Provided you are not riding a motorcycle, moped or scooter. :rolleyes:

seamus

Motorcycles and scooters wouldn't be on college green at rush hour, how would they know

Seriously though, I've ridden a motorbike in Dublin city. This is not a major hassle for them. Unless you're actually trying to get to Westmoreland St or D'Olier street, then the additional hassle caused by this is minimal if you just plan your route in advance.

Carawaystick

zagmund wrote: »

KC61 - it is arguable whether most people want to go to O'Connell Street or whether they go there because the bus brings them there. If the bus brought them somewhere else nearby and they still wanted to go to O'Connell Street then they would walk the extra distance, just like people who want to go to (say) Smithfield currently get off at O'Connell Street and walk up.

The other issue is the large blocks in the way of running services away from O' Connell St. There is a huge area between O'Connell St to Church St north to Western Way and the luas or Liffey on the South that is a major destination for people and has no public transport. Routing busses further away from here is not going to help the problem. The other issue is the smaller area between Dawson/Kildare St and St Great Georges St bounded by Dame St to the North and Hatch St at the south

Psephologist

Traffic in Fairview, Amiens St and Matt Talbot Bridge particularly heavy this (Tuesday) morning and yesterday too. This despite perfect weather, schools off and a lot of people on holidays.

I suspect it's the unintended consequence a lot of the College Green traffic being diverted east. There's no point making one little bit of the city flow smoother if you're only going to clog up other bits more I reckon.

markpb

Psephologist wrote: »

I suspect it's the unintended consequence a lot of the College Green traffic being diverted east. There's no point making one little bit of the city flow smoother if you're only going to clog up other bits more I reckon.

You're probably right but I wouldn't be overly worried - things will settle down, people will find new routes or make unnecessary journeys less often or just later on in the day. People think that less roads means more congestion for existing traffic but it's not that simple - traffic isn't a constant - it adapts to the road capacity available to it.

monument

Psephologist wrote: »

...There's no point making one little bit of the city flow smoother if you're only going to clog up other bits more I reckon.

There is when the bit been made smoother is the main public transport corridor.

faceman

Traffic was atrocious this evening

gurramok

It was indeed. I was later driving home down Amiens st than yesterday as i had to pop into to somewhere on the way.
I passed down Amiens st southbound at 6:30pm(50min later than yday) and the left 2 lanes which are normally bound for city quay were near empty but the most outer right lane heading for the right turn onto Georges quay was jammed, never saw that before so backed up at that hour.
Will report what it will be like tomorrow without any U2 concert as i should be in the area around 5:30pm which is real peak!

NewDubliner

faceman wrote: »

Traffic was atrocious this evening

Depends on your mode of transport.

AlekSmart

Posters ask why so many buses serve O'Connell Street. The answer is simple. That is where people want to go. That area is where more people get on/off buses. Buses operating via Gardiner Street were re-routed via O'Connell Street because people asked Dublin Bus to do it.

I would disagree somewhat with this assertion.

Bus Atha Cliath is not exactly renowned for doing what people ask of them and in the case of O Connell St it was not responding to some great cacophony of public demand either.

One must remember that Public Transport in Dublin operates by virtue of a constant yet uneasy truce between the various Statutory Bodies (Dublin City Council,An Garda Síochana,The Dept of Environment etc) and Bus Atha Cliath itself.

This constant state of beligerence ensures that no cohesive Public Transpoert strategy has ever been formulated,let alone implimented for Dublin as an entity in itself.

The unhealthy predominance of O Connell St has come about in recent times thanks to the DTO`s Quality Bus Network (QBN) plans and their implimentation by the QBN Office,a division of Dublin City Council.

Essentially the QBN`s decision to install Bus Lanes along O Connell St and it`s Northern Approaches essentially forced Bus Atha Cliath to flood the place with Buses.

Senior BAC Management did not wish to be portrayed as remaining aloof from this Bus Lane manna from heaven so they swiftly set about putting as many routes or part routes along the street as possible.....in my opinion,one gigantic mistake.

Most cross city routes stopping on OCS disgorge a vast number of passengers heading for Henry St/Mary St and Jervis St.
The remainder tend to head for North Earl St and Talbot St leaving a relatively small amount of persons actually doing business in OCS itself...Clery`s,Easons and Penny`s being the main attractions for this group.

It is little short of a gigantic scandal that BAC has decided to ignore alternative routings which would actually deliver passengers CLOSER to the main shopping zones.

For example,the Jervis Centre and Pennys on Henry St are substantially closer to Jervis St itself which could with little dificulty be transformed into a South-North Bus Corridor linking Ormond Quay with Parnell St

Much of Jervis St is given over to on-street car parking which could and should be sacrificed to facilitate better Public Transport useage.

Routes using Jervis Street could then take a number of new options to leave the city.
1.Turn Right onto Parnell St then via Parnell Square West.
2.Turn Left onto Parnell St then via Bolton St or North King St to disperse in differing directions.
3.Utilize the area around Loftus Lane-Kings Inn St as a layover area for whatever City Centre terminating routes require it.

Equally the Gardiner St corridor could provide some very welcome relief and an opportunity to bring some commercial footfall back into the eastern end of Talbot St.

We appear to have forgotten that the entire ethos of the City Centre Integrated Area Plan was to facilitate PEDESTRIAN movements with associated benefits for pedal cyclists and other eco-friendly modes of transport.

The obvious fact is that facilitating PEDESTRIANS entails some folks being required to WALK....it`s chicken and egg time....

I believe that Bus Atha Cliath`s fascination with the O Connell St corridor is probably the single greatest obstacle to devising a business plan which could be marketed to prospective passengers as a DIFFERENT answer to what is by now a VERY old problem.

angel01

faceman wrote: »

Traffic was atrocious this evening

I thought it was better than it was Monday