DART+ (DART Expansion)

McAlban

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

It is well worth looking at the population density maps to see how the population is spread.

http://airo.maynoothuniversity.ie/external-content/census-2011-national-mapping-viewer

Beyond Clongriffin, there is just very little population for every additional kilometre of rail that you electrify. There are pockets of density, but that is about it. Every extra kilometre you open up, the more money the railway will lose on operating costs.

If you want to use areas based on British Parlimentary Electroal Divisions then yes. There is very little density.

Change the View to Small Areas, and you can see the areas around the Train Line have very good density. Barring Rush And Lusk.

crushproof

McAlban wrote: »

If you want to use areas based on British Parlimentary Electroal Divisions then yes. There is very little density.

Change the View to Small Areas, and you can see the areas around the Train Line have very good density. Barring Rush And Lusk.

After Malahide there's no significant population until Balbriggan. I agree with antoinolachtnai that there is point in electrifying this section for such a low population mass. You can hardly justify spending millions on providing electric rail to towns with populations of 20,000 (Balbriggan) and 9000 (both Skerries and Rush). All this while ignoring areas to the west of the city with significantly higher population numbers.

antoinolachtnai

There is density around the stations sure. But around most of the length of the railway there is very little.

Every time the electric railway is extended the carryings per km of track go down. This seems crazy when there are underserved areas of the city.

A south city tunnel is certainly needed but the overall plan should increase overall ridership per km of track and so make it more sustainable. Not the opposite.

scouserstation

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The whole point of an electric railway is that it is more cost-effective than a diesel railway if the frequency is high. The problem is that Balbriggan doesn't really merit the frequency of an electric railway.




For sure, extending to North Blanch is a complicated undertaking. There are lots of people to liaise with and lots of decisions to be made.

There are lots of ways of doing an extension for blanchardstown .One of the easiest methods would be to branch off after the navan road parkway stop and run a line along the tolka valley where their is tons of land going to waste, you could run all the way up along Connolly hospital, blanch sc, corduff/blanch IT, mulhuddart etc.

scouserstation

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The whole point of an electric railway is that it is more cost-effective than a diesel railway if the frequency is high. The problem is that Balbriggan doesn't really merit the frequency of an electric railway.




For sure, extending to North Blanch is a complicated undertaking. There are lots of people to liaise with and lots of decisions to be made.

There are lots of ways of doing an extension for blanchardstown .One of the easiest methods would be to branch off after the navan road parkway stop and run a line along the tolka valley where their is tons of land going to waste, you could run all the way up along Connolly hospital, blanch sc, corduff/blanch IT, mulhuddart etc.

McAlban

They're not ignoring them. These High density areas (North Blanch, Mulhuddart, Corduff etc) are "under" served because there is no line or convenient station there. I could say the same about high density areas of Skerries and Balbriggan. and that is a result of bad planning by Fingal Co. Co. rather than DTTAS or Irish Rail.

I wait to see the figures of how much electrification to Balbriggan will cost. Because I can guess it's not as expensive as electrifying from Docklands to Pace, and then building a Spur to the Blanchardstown Centre as you advocate. Which as I already said, will be difficult with all the high density houses in the way.

FWIW I think we should have let Abercrombie carry out his plans after 1922. The man was a Genius, and the underground city centre link would have been finished 80 years ago!

mackerski

scouserstation wrote: »

There are lots of ways of doing an extension for blanchardstown .One of the easiest methods would be to branch off after the navan road parkway stop and run a line along the tolka valley where their is tons of land going to waste, you could run all the way up along Connolly hospital, blanch sc, corduff/blanch IT, mulhuddart etc.

The Tolka valley is full of Tolka and Tolka floodplain...

mackerski

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

About a million people go to the Zoo per annum, but even so, my point was more in reference to the above discussed issue with a turnback loop.

Surely you would also agree that you're actually also sarcastically stating an argument against DU? Another way to get from Heuston (included in my crayoning btw) to Connolly/Tara St (whichever the new plan considers).

I was going to disagree entirely, but perhaps I'll just mostly disagree instead. In theory what you propose would provide a city terminus that could enable greater frequency on the Maynooth line. I commute on that line, so believe me when I say that I understand how this would be a Good Thing.

However: this service would terminate under Tara Street, which sounds expensive to excavate. It would have to somehow tunnel from Parkgate Street along an alignment that naturally has to follow a big tidal river. Sounds expensive. Any (expensive) stops along the Quays would be handy, but the park stop still won't pay its way, zoo or no zoo. I guess it feels to me that this isn't that much cheaper than DU to be worth the compromise in usefulness.

scouserstation

mackerski wrote: »

The Tolka valley is full of Tolka and Tolka floodplain...

This is the sort of attitude that has us where we are now

murphaph

scouserstation wrote: »

This is the sort of attitude that has us where we are now

In fairness, it's not.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

This thread has lost its marbles. People discussing new fantasy solutions and variations and whatnot. The tunnel section that everything would depend on had been cancelled. It's a travesty and people arguing over dart to Balbriggan versus dart to Blanch is really quite sad. Fighting over the crumbs falling from the rural politicians' table....

First class post. I completely agree.

I don't know what level of historical knowledge can be credited to some posters here or their age group, but some of the stuff being posted in this thread recently is disheartening in the extreme. I respect that its a public forum and contributors are allowed to discuss all related matters, so I hope the same respect can be afforded to those who think that some of the reaction and contribution deserves the thread being referred to as losing its marbles.

Grandeeod

Idbatterim wrote: »

I think we are all pi**ed off with the situation, I am sure we will get DU, Dublin has to get DU, the question is when, the same question that has been on the table for years at this stage.

In terms of coming up with a cheaper solution or a number of cheaper options i.e. single bore tunnel, shorter tunnel, dropping stations, surely the costing for this, could be known in under a year?

I am confident that Dublin will not get DU in my lifetime. Variations of the project have been around for 40 odd years. I will keep ramming this point home. Irish politicians DO NOT get urban rail transport. This week they have insulted the intelligence of people who understand Public Transport. The Minister was quoted as saying the DU project as it stands isnt warranted because the "numbers" predicted aren't there. Herein lies the ultimate mistake, because future proofing and investing in the future is how you approach projects like DU. We have too many examples in Ireland of taking the most basic option and then paying the price years down the road.

DU as designed is fine. Any so called cheaper variation, even if built, would be redundant very quickly.

For the record. Running the DART to Balbriggan was part of the DU plan, although Drogheda was the original destination. The DART was also meant to run to Kildare town. This was scaled back to Hazelhatch. Maynooth to Connolly was also meant to be electrified. However, none of these work effectively without the tunnel and never will. The "cheaper" options are nothing more than reinventing the wheel, tactics that will delay us another 40 odd years, while consultants etc etc earn wasted bucks.

BS and more BS. History can teach us that nothing changes.

Lenton Lane

Grandeeod wrote: »

I am confident that Dublin will not get DU in my lifetime. Variations of the project have been around for 40 odd years. I will keep ramming this point home. Irish politicians DO NOT get urban rail transport. This week they have insulted the intelligence of people who understand Public Transport. The Minister was quoted as saying the DU project as it stands isnt warranted because the "numbers" predicted aren't there. Herein lies the ultimate mistake, because future proofing and investing in the future is how you approach projects like DU. We have too many examples in Ireland of taking the most basic option and then paying the price years down the road.

DU as designed is fine. Any so called cheaper variation, even if built, would be redundant very quickly.

For the record. Running the DART to Balbriggan was part of the DU plan, although Drogheda was the original destination. The DART was also meant to run to Kildare town. This was scaled back to Hazelhatch. Maynooth to Connolly was also meant to be electrified. However, none of these work effectively without the tunnel and never will. The "cheaper" options are nothing more than reinventing the wheel, tactics that will delay us another 40 odd years, while consultants etc etc earn wasted bucks.

BS and more BS. History can teach us that nothing changes.

I've got to stop agreeing with you GD but I can't help myself!

Dart Underground will never be built. The Department, successive ministers and the yes men who are Irish journalists will see to that.

Just look at the reaction of that clown Dan White in the Herald tonight, that is the mentality that we are dealing with in the Irish establishment. (Though I do agree we need heavy rail to Dublin Airport in addition to Luas or Metro North or whatever we are calling it this week).

murphaph

Yep. The current dead plan was by no means some gold plated version. I have actually criticised his it cheaps out with respect to station entrances.... Rather than a spider web of accesses to each station, they have the bare minimum, which effectively reduces the catchment area. I don't believe tunneling from Heuston would save anything significant, if at all. Any other more radical changes would fundamentally change what the project is designed to do.... But that's the problem still: so many people don't understand what it's supposed to do.

Lenton Lane

murphaph wrote: »

Yep. The current dead plan was by no means some gold plated version. I have actually criticised his it cheaps out with respect to station entrances.... Rather than a spider web of accesses to each station, they have the bare minimum, which effectively reduces the catchment area. I don't believe tunneling from Heuston would save anything significant, if at all. Any other more radical changes would fundamentally change what the project is designed to do.... But that's the problem still: so many people don't understand what it's supposed to do.

Because people believe the crap written in the papers that's why. We need more voices getting the message across what properly integrated public transport is and what it isn't.

Fundamentally good public transport shouldn't be a reward or a privilege given only to the minister of the days constituency.

Sam Russell

Lenton Lane wrote: »

Because people believe the crap written in the papers that's why. We need more voices getting the message across what properly integrated public transport is and what it isn't.

Fundamentally good public transport shouldn't be a reward or a privilege given only to the minister of the days constituency.

Perhaps that is the problem. It covers too many constituencies.

Didn't the Spanish crowd that did the Madrid Metro say they could do DU and MN for half the figures quoted.

Cameron was out looking for Chineese money to build HS2. Perhaps Enda might get onto his mate Xi Jinping and see if he would put a few bob into a tunnel.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

Perhaps that is the problem. It covers too many constituencies.

Didn't the Spanish crowd that did the Madrid Metro say they could do DU and MN for half the figures quoted.

Cameron was out looking for Chineese money to build HS2. Perhaps Enda might get onto his mate Xi Jinping and see if he would put a few bob into a tunnel.

It was Professor Manuel Maynar Melis and it was more than MN that he referenced. He was a very proven and enlightened person. But you know, we went to the bother of sitting him down in an Oireachtas Committee, only to basically tell him to **** off. But that our political method. Talk the talk and then fall over.

murphaph

Even if Kenny got the money for free they couldn't be seen to build DU by their mostly non Dublin voters. That's all thus sh!t comes down to.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

Even if Kenny got the money for free they couldn't be seen to build DU by their mostly non Dublin voters. That's all thus sh!t comes down to.

And remember that this epic failure attitude exists across all parties, due to a combination of our PR electoral system and a cultural/historical association with the car or bus. Someone said somewhere here or another related thread that if we had gained independence a few years later, the lads from over the pond would have put an underground in Dublin. Maybe. But we most likely would have flooded it on the basis that a tram was more economical and then caught up with ourselves by doing what with did to the tram system.

Mehapoy

Grandeeod wrote: »

And remember that this epic failure attitude exists across all parties, due to a combination of our PR electoral system and a cultural/historical association with the car or bus. Someone said somewhere here or another related thread that if we had gained independence a few years later, the lads from over the pond would have put an underground in Dublin. Maybe. But we most likely would have flooded it on the basis that a tram was more economical and then caught up with ourselves by doing what with did to the tram system.

Ya its depressing, its not just politicians either, the way the papers reported it shows they didn't understand it's aim either and how transformative it would be, not just for Dublin
But the rest of the train system. The parish pump wins out again in this country, same as the farce that the spatial strategy etc. became.

murphaph

Yeah I am not singling FG out. The system works against Dublin and Cork for sure. I don't know if it works for or against the smaller urban centres tbh. As other posters have mentioned though, far to many urban residents are more interested in the politics of wherever they come from, rather than where they actually live their lives. Those people deserve no better tbh.

Grandeeod

murphaph wrote: »

Yeah I am not singling FG out. The system works against Dublin and Cork for sure. I don't know if it works for or against the smaller urban centres tbh. As other posters have mentioned though, far to many urban residents are more interested in the politics of wherever they come from, rather than where they actually live their lives. Those people deserve no better tbh.

Cork is second best for sure, but do they care? While Dublin deserves things, what has Cork proposed? As for smaller urban centres like Galway etc. we can only justify investment like light rail after we have fixed the capital and Cork if its willing to go beyond the Midleton gig. Realistically everything needs to filter down from the top to the bottom. But thats not how its done in Ireland. Its disjointed, a mess and big infrastructural projects are proposed in a willy nilly fashion. Once again we come back to central Government that is based in the capital, but has in origins elsewhere.

Do it in Dublin and we can look at Cork etc. if we are willing and able to do it in a responsible fashion. I don't believe we are.

Muahahaha

murphaph wrote: »

Even if Kenny got the money for free they couldn't be seen to build DU by their mostly non Dublin voters. That's all thus sh!t comes down to.

I wouldn't mind but they seem to be great at telling us all how they got our bonds down from junk status to record lows of 1-1.5%. They seem well able to pat themselves on the back for that one but totally incapable at taking advantage of the situation by issuing more bonds and investing in long term infrastructure. The cost/benefit ratio stacks up so its a no-brainer to borrow the money now at some of the cheapest rates the State has ever had and at a time of lull in the construction industry.

Bray Head

Actually at the start of this Government's term a full 9 of the 15 cabinet members served Dublin constituencies. It is 7 now. This is still quite disproportionate.

The 2002-2007 government had 4 out of 15 ministers serving Dublin constituencies.

Bray Head

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is density around the stations sure. But around most of the length of the railway there is very little.

Every time the electric railway is extended the carryings per km of track go down. This seems crazy when there are underserved areas of the city.

A south city tunnel is certainly needed but the overall plan should increase overall ridership per km of track and so make it more sustainable. Not the opposite.

Here's the map so people can make up their own minds. Apologies but Balbriggan at the top has been chopped.

After Clongriffin much of what is walking distance to the track is sea or fields. Compare this to the southside Dart line to Bray where apart from the stretch after Shankill there is continuous, high-density population.

murphaph

Bray Head wrote: »

Actually at the start of this Government's term a full 9 of the 15 cabinet members served Dublin constituencies. It is 7 now. This is still quite disproportionate.

The 2002-2007 government had 4 out of 15 ministers serving Dublin constituencies.

Having more than half the cabinet has done Dublin no favours. The backbenchers have as much power as the cabinet and they know it. Time for a party from Dublin, for Dublin.

Lenton Lane

Bray Head wrote: »

Actually at the start of this Government's term a full 9 of the 15 cabinet members served Dublin constituencies. It is 7 now. This is still quite disproportionate.

The 2002-2007 government had 4 out of 15 ministers serving Dublin constituencies.

There is nothing in the constitution that says the cabinet should be based on a geographical spread. Doesn't stop people from commenting that for instance "Cork has no one at the cabinet table" etc.

Any Taoiseach worth their salt would pick a cabinet based on talent and ability alone, and not be afraid to recruit talent from outside the Dail and even politics itself. The constitution even allows for this with provision for Senators to be cabinet ministers and for the Taoiseach of the day to appoint Senators to the Seanad. The only time this happened was when Garret Fitzgerald picked Jim Dooge to be Minister of Foreign Affairs in the early 80s.

Transport and Infrastructure in this State are too important to be in the gift of politicians to promise baubles to their constituents just like Paschal Donohoe will make sure Dublin Central gets something bright and shiny in the Capital Investment Programme next week.

If I were Taoiseach, I would appoint people like David McWilliams to the cabinet. People who aren't in thrall to a constituency and who are prepared to challenge and deal with the stultifying hand of the Civil Service and our increasingly supine media. People who get things done rather than perpetuate the dead hand of Official Ireland.

FreudianSlippers

mackerski wrote: »

I was going to disagree entirely, but perhaps I'll just mostly disagree instead. In theory what you propose would provide a city terminus that could enable greater frequency on the Maynooth line. I commute on that line, so believe me when I say that I understand how this would be a Good Thing.

However: this service would terminate under Tara Street, which sounds expensive to excavate. It would have to somehow tunnel from Parkgate Street along an alignment that naturally has to follow a big tidal river. Sounds expensive. Any (expensive) stops along the Quays would be handy, but the park stop still won't pay its way, zoo or no zoo. I guess it feels to me that this isn't that much cheaper than DU to be worth the compromise in usefulness.

Fair enough if that was what I was suggesting, but it wasn't - I was simply saying that the whole conversation about terminating the DU at Heuston lacking a turnback loop could be solved by continuing it to a greenfield site at NRPW.

It would still join the main DU line - which for the sake of argument based on the new proposals mooted in the plan, is likely to terminate at Tara via SSG, Christchurch and Heuston.

McAlban

Lenton Lane wrote: »

If I were Taoiseach, I would appoint people like David McWilliams to the cabinet. People who aren't in thrall to a constituency and who are prepared to challenge and deal with the stultifying hand of the Civil Service and our increasingly supine media. People who get things done rather than perpetuate the dead hand of Official Ireland.

May have some Constitutional Issues there Lenton. Of course you could nominate who you want (11 Senators) to the Senate and then Appoint them to Cabinet but its's Capped at two Senators and You have to get their nominations through the Seanad and the Dail. In which you'd be contesting backbenchers bitter that they are not getting the portfolio after being elected...

Sometimes I think our laws are designed to get nothing done! One thing Kenny tried to do (and failed) was to reform that money wasting pit of vested interests.

D.L.R.

The best we can hope for now re Dart Underground is the go ahead of Metro North in some form, despite that fact that MN is really the lower priority. MN will make DU almost unavoidable in the long term esp if they facilitate the SSG station. And getting any underground line at all would be a minor miracle.

All depends on the world economy I suppose. We get a good run and DU could well happen. We don't and it won't. As always the weak link is the gravy train known as the Irish govt.