DART+ (DART Expansion)

Van.Bosch

My real worry about this redesign is our friend on the other thread!

FreudianSlippers

In paragraph 9.2.6:

In order to understand the potential impact of a larger public transport network in the GDA on the economic case for the DART Expansion Programme, a sensitivity analysis has been carried out. For the purposes of this sensitivity, four key rail developments that were included in the previous Business Casehave been assumed to be in the Do Minimum, namely:

• Metro North;
• Metro West;
• Luas from Lucan to the city centre; and
• Luas Green Line extension to Bray.

Although the report isn't considering cost-viability of the projects, are they effectively saying that those 4 projects must go ahead even in the "Do nothing" plan outlined previously in the report? That is, the business case for not proceedings with DU (or proceeding with it as a stand-alone project more appropriately) is predicated on the 4 above projects going ahead?

Middle Man

Ren2k7 wrote: »

There's an election next year so voice your disapproval for this monumental cock-up by voting for alternatives to FGLAB. It doesn't have to be the Shinners, the SD's or even Renua would be a welcome alternative to this bunch of wasters.

Cock up indeed!!!

Of course, the ordinary people will continue to be blamed for using their cars and the powers that be will wonder why the M7 keeps clogging up!!!

Irish politicians! :rolleyes:

Winters

BoatMad wrote: »

actually it shows good engineering sense, engineers are always being asked for alternatives

The entire project since it was first envisaged in the 80's went through an exhaustive process of planning and route selection. The preferred route was arrived at after report after report. It is the best and only route.

I have read all the studies. The alternatives presented today were probably drawn up this morning by Paschal himself.

Ren2k7

1huge1 wrote: »

I'm slightly more positive after reading this, better deferred than cancelled, though I don't know how you could build one that is more efficient. Also, where is the €3 billion cost of the tunnel coming from

Dart to be extended to Balbriggan by 2022 (via @IrishTimes) http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dart-to-be-extended-to-balbriggan-by-2022-1.2361505

DU is dead and buried. An alternative might be presented in a year or two but it'll bear little resemblance to the current proposal. The sooner we recognise that this govt simply doesn't care for public transport in Dublin the sooner we can start looking for a govt that does care about making Dublin into a truly modern capital city.

MrMorooka

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

In paragraph 9.2.6:



Although the report isn't considering cost-viability of the projects, are they effectively saying that those 4 projects must go ahead even in the "Do nothing" plan outlined previously in the report?

You'll note those are all nice, privatisation-friendly RPA projects. There's politics involved here, even though DU is the best project, it came from Irish Rail so the department is doing its best to airbrush it away.

MrMorooka

Ren2k7 wrote: »

DU is dead and buried. An alternative might be presented in a year or two but it'll bear little resemblance to the current proposal. The sooner we recognise that this govt simply doesn't care for public transport in Dublin the sooner we can start looking for a govt that does care about making Dublin into a truly modern capital city.

There is no such party though. I would vote for a party that committed to DU and other projects, changing tax law to give Dublin its own budget and real executive power, and other such measures aimed at treating it as a city and not a town, but that party doesn't exist, to my knowledge.

Ren2k7

Banjoxed wrote: »

At this stage I'll be voting for the Social Democrats.

I'll vote for whoever is serious about capital investment in Ireland........So I suspect I might not be votingf at all. This country! :roll:

Grandeeod

Van.Bosch wrote: »

My real worry about this redesign is our friend on the other thread!

A few years ago it was mentioned on this forum that the Government would take a "reinvent the wheel approach". Historically this has been the approach taken to DU, luas and previous incarnations of DU. Its a political way of kicking the can down the road while appearing to be proactive. You may yet see it routed under College Green, so it can be kicked down the road yet again.

This is cyclical.

FreudianSlippers

MrMorooka wrote: »

There is no such party though. I would vote for a party that committed to DU and other projects, changing tax law to give Dublin its own budget and real executive power, and other such measures aimed at treating it as a city and not a town, but that party doesn't exist, to my knowledge.

I'd be very interested in that party as well!

Godge

MrMorooka wrote: »

There is no such party though. I would vote for a party that committed to DU and other projects, changing tax law to give Dublin its own budget and real executive power, and other such measures aimed at treating it as a city and not a town, but that party doesn't exist, to my knowledge.

The Greens are the best bet for public transport issues.

Middle Man

When it came to the Crossrail project in London (their east-west inter-connector), British politicians deliberated on whether or not to proceed given the huge cost back around 2008/2009- well they got up off their backsides despite the recession and all the mainline tunnels are dug at this point in time and the track work is now underway. London will reap the rewards in 2019 while we continue to suffer the consequences of spineless Irish politics - Dublin needed the Dart Underground so badly.

cgcsb

Winters wrote: »

As a transport engineer involved in this since 1999 today fills me with more dismay. The alternative is congestion. Today's decision has set Dublin back at least 50 years.

To countenence any other project as an alternative to the Interconnector plan (or DART Underground as it was also known) shows a complete lack of foresight, leadership and common sense.

Shame on any engineers that put forward those alternative tunneling plans. You are an embarrassment to the profession.

AECOM are the governments favourite consultants, didn't they produce a report on the western rail corridor that said it 'may be feasible' through gritted teeth. They aren't true consultants they just put what the government wants into fancy language in a 100 page droning report of utterly stupid 'analysis'. The revised DART underground business case is beyond a joke. They make the project 'not economically viable' by separating it from the surface elements of the project :rolleyes:

BoatMad

Godge wrote: »

The Greens are the best bet for public transport issues.

and for absolutely nothing else

cgcsb

Middle Man wrote: »

When it came to the Crossrail project in London (their east-west inter-connector), British politicians deliberated on whether or not to proceed given the huge cost back around 2008/2009- well they got up off their backsides despite the recession and all the mainline tunnels are dug at this point in time and the track work is now underway. London will reap the rewards in 2019 while we continue to suffer the consequences of spineless Irish politics - Dublin needed the Dart Underground so badly.

The UK population is touching on 90% urban. Ireland is about 60% urban. London also has an assembly with powers akin to that of Wales. If the Healy Reas and other like minded individuals can't benefit, it won't happen. Also remember that Ireland is a dumb country, we exported the smarty pants people for generations where as places like London have consistently imported talent over centuries. The remaining population was divided along gombeen and parish pump lines by the political parties and promised things, a pothole fixed here, an IDA funded non profitable factory there etc.

Middle Man

cgcsb wrote: »

The UK population is touching on 90% urban. Ireland is about 60% urban. London also has an assembly with powers akin to that of Wales. If the Healy Reas and other like minded individuals can't benefit, it won't happen. Also remember that Ireland is a dumb country, we exported the smarty pants people for generations where as places like London have consistently imported talent over centuries. The remaining population was divided along gombeen and parish pump lines by the political parties and promised things, a pothole fixed here, an IDA funded non profitable factory there etc.

Hate to say it regarding Ireland, but I'd have to agree with a lot of the above!

BoatMad

Middle Man wrote: »

When it came to the Crossrail project in London (their east-west inter-connector), British politicians deliberated on whether or not to proceed given the huge cost back around 2008/2009- well they got up off their backsides despite the recession and all the mainline tunnels are dug at this point in time and the track work is now underway. London will reap the rewards in 2019 while we continue to suffer the consequences of spineless Irish politics - Dublin needed the Dart Underground so badly.

crossrail is a project that has ten times more setbacks then DU, proposed in 1974, rejected multiple time on finance grounds, re-designed, rejected by parliament, approved but not funded, rejected by a tory Gov, finally given go ahead in 2008, yet had budget reduced in 2010 and some re-designs

Im sure DU isn't dead, just theres no money , just like cross rail

plodder

Godge wrote: »

The Greens are the best bet for public transport issues.

I thought Labour would have been more behind this. It should have been down to them to make the case for it at government.

Dr_Bill

We should be investing in a heavy rail solution for Dublin which should also include a link to the Airport.

What we will get instead is a band aid solution will work for a while in the form of a LUAS link to the Airport which will become a success (politicians happy & win votes) but ultimately will become overcrowded and hit capacity until we wake up in 10 years time or so and then decide we need a Metro North/Dart Underground call it what you like so we can pay for it twice.

Is Ireland dumb? At times yes it is... The smart economy? Get on a Ryanair outta the place and join the smart people!

BoatMad

cgcsb wrote: »

The UK population is touching on 90% urban. Ireland is about 60% urban. London also has an assembly with powers akin to that of Wales. If the Healy Reas and other like minded individuals can't benefit, it won't happen. Also remember that Ireland is a dumb country, we exported the smarty pants people for generations where as places like London have consistently imported talent over centuries. The remaining population was divided along gombeen and parish pump lines by the political parties and promised things, a pothole fixed here, an IDA funded non profitable factory there etc.

nonsense

actually the fittest stayed at home, cause they were the ones that rose to the top of the pile and got work. Most of the emigrants till recently were manual labours and the like.

The UK population is touching on 90% urban. Ireland is about 60% urban

nonsense numbers, because the absolute figures have a huge difference

If the Healy Reas and other like minded individuals can't benefit, it won't happen. Also remember that Ireland is a dumb country,

There are healey rays in every constituency , remember Dublin and CJH and .....

in a multi seat preference vote politicians will always curry local favour is how they get elected

as for a dumb country, only paddies run down their own country , dumb my ass


DI lost, get it, other projects won, the capital plan will be announced next week, it will considerably better then previously thought , with a possible LUAS and heavy rail link to the airport etc , there will be other rail investment as well

remember , kicking the dog, is useless, its make you foot hurt and annoys the dog.

BoatMad

Dr_Bill wrote: »

We should be investing in a heavy rail solution for Dublin which should also include a link to the Airport.

I understand that is the preferred option and may get the go-ahead

What we will get instead is a band aid solution will work for a while in the form of a LUAS link to the Airport which will become a success (politicians happy & win votes) but ultimately will become overcrowded and hit capacity until we wake up in 10 years time or so and then decide we need a Metro North/Dart Underground call it what you like so we can pay for it twice.

from pronouncements rexcently , it seems its accepted that LUAS is not a solution to the airport in itself, but may be a solution to MN.

Is Ireland dumb? At times yes it is... The smart economy? Get on a Ryanair outta the place and join the smart people!

Ill hold your coat and slam the door after you , go join the millions of paddies that laid blocks and dug ditches abroad

Brian CivilEng

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

In paragraph 9.2.6:

In order to understand the potential impact of a larger public transport network in the GDA on the economic case for the DART Expansion Programme, a sensitivity analysis has been carried out. For the purposes of this sensitivity, four key rail developments that were included in the previous Business Casehave been assumed to be in the Do Minimum, namely:
Metro North;
Metro West;
Luas from Lucan to the city centre; and
Luas Green Line extension to Bray.

Although the report isn't considering cost-viability of the projects, are they effectively saying that those 4 projects must go ahead even in the "Do nothing" plan outlined previously in the report? That is, the business case for not proceedings with DU (or proceeding with it as a stand-alone project more appropriately) is predicated on the 4 above projects going ahead?

No, what was going on there was a sensitivity analysis. They said that in the previous Appraisal it was assumed that those projects would be delivered, and in the current one it is assumed that they wont be. So they checked if those projects would have a significant impact on the business case if they were to be delivered at a later date. The difference was negligible.

Dr_Bill

BoatMad wrote: »

Ill hold your coat and slam the door after you , go join the millions of paddies that laid blocks and dug ditches abroad

Thank-you for holding my coat, mind the door thou, the hinges mightn't be all that great, at least I won't have to pay an effective tax rate of 54% but it won't be from laying blocks or digging ditches.

crushproof

The Irish Times leads with "DART to be extended to Balbriggan by 2022"

Says it all, the majority of the public / media / politicians havn't a clue about how critical to Dublin the DU is. And yet they swallow up the usual gombeenism. Why does no one question this?
Balbriggan in 2022???? I though it was meant to be 1992.....2002....2012......ARGGHHHH!!

Lenton Lane

There's only one way that Paschal can get himself out of this mess and that's to announce heavy rail to the Airport and Swords in conjunction with the Airport Luas.

A rail connection to Navan would be ideal as well. With the City Centre signalling in place an Interim Navan service via Drogheda down the freight line would be a start.

Brian CivilEng

I just spent 30 minutes reading the AECOM report (it is related to my job so that was acceptable to do on work time. What do you mean posting on boards isn't acceptable? We'll ignore that bit).

OK, am I wrong or did the Minister miss the point in the conclusion? The report concluded that building DART Underground alone does not make business sense, it needs all the associated works involved in the expansion plan. That spending €3billion would only have a BCR of 0.9, but spending the extra billion means the BCR rises to 1.6.

At no point was the question answered as to what are the economic benefits of the non-tunnel sections of the DART expansion project alone.

The report basically said that you would not get the benefit of the tunnel without building the entire scheme, so don't cheap out on it.

Was the question ever asked about the economic benefits of the wider DART expansion scheme without the tunnel backbone to support it? For all we know what the Minister now proposes is more money down the drain.

cgcsb

well obviously there isn't much benefit of separating the tunnel from the other elements of the DART plan, is that not obvious? is this bizzaro world.

We were hardly going to just build a tunnel and have Inchicore to Clontarf road trains now were we.

Van.Bosch

abitofacomedian wrote: »

I just spent 30 minutes reading the AECOM report (it is related to my job so that was acceptable to do on work time. What do you mean posting on boards isn't acceptable? We'll ignore that bit).

OK, am I wrong or did the Minister miss the point in the conclusion? The report concluded that building DART Underground alone does not make business sense, it needs all the associated works involved in the expansion plan. That spending €3billion would only have a BCR of 0.9, but spending the extra billion means the BCR rises to 1.6.

At no point was the question answered as to what are the economic benefits of the non-tunnel sections of the DART expansion project alone.

The report basically said that you would not get the benefit of the tunnel without building the entire scheme, so don't cheap out on it.

Was the question ever asked about the economic benefits of the wider DART expansion scheme without the tunnel backbone to support it? For all we know what the Minister now proposes is more money down the drain.

The first line of your post is probably more than the minister personally read. Its a valid question but i suspect the government response would be that we are not building the prepatory stages without the tunnel, we are building the with a view to building a cheaper version of the tunnel in 2022.

Haithabu

1huge1 wrote: »

I'm slightly more positive after reading this, better deferred than cancelled, though I don't know how you could build one that is more efficient. Also, where is the €3 billion cost of the tunnel coming from

Dart to be extended to Balbriggan by 2022 (via @IrishTimes) http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/dart-to-be-extended-to-balbriggan-by-2022-1.2361505

If the cost of the DU tunnel would be €3 billion then it's probably the right thing not to build it. Especially if the Phoenix Park tunnel can be activated for regular commuter services from Conolly/Docklands to Parkwest/Clondalkin or Portlaoise.

DART to Balbriggan would be nice but DART to Airport would be better even if the taxi drivers of Dublin would disagree.

BoatMad

OK, am I wrong or did the Minister miss the point in the conclusion? The report concluded that building DART Underground alone does not make business sense, it needs all the associated works involved in the expansion plan. That spending €3billion would only have a BCR of 0.9, but spending the extra billion means the BCR rises to 1.6.

The report in the independent of the ministers statement clearly says that the Giv remains committed to the project and that the spending is 3bn plus an additional 1 bn in associated works