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DART+ (DART Expansion)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,041 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    Here is a more recent update. The new DART+ trains made their way to Howth last month.

    They were doing gauging between Fairview & Howth on the 9th of June.

    The new trains also underwent speed tests on the 12th & 13th of June.

    Video is not mine btw. The credit goes to Irish Rail Trains on Youtube.

    Post edited by dublinman1990 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Surely Tara Street will have to be reconfigured anyway when metrolink passes through there? The same space constraints are an issue for an interchange with it after all. A bunch of buildings are going to be demolished to build the metrolink station and plaza to the west of the existing station. There is room to widen both platforms at Tara street and add circulation areas. I never assumed they were just going to leave Tara Street as it is with metrolink. That just won't work. That can't be the plan, can it??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,436 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    The curvature from Tara is only too tight if tying into the Northern Line to Docklands spur. With the new Spencer Dock station, that isn't going to be possible anyway. As you also say, the tunnel will almost certainly have to emerge north east of Docklands so including Tara on the route shouldn't be an issue. It will also save a good bit of tunnelling verses going via SSG (plus removing a station). Another poster said that Tara Steet station is tiny but post Metrolink, there will be space to expand it to be a major interchange station (I'm actually disappointed that Metrolink isn't doing more to expand Tara Street, they could at least have a lift running directly from DART platform level down to Metrolink platform level).

    TBH I don't see Heuston or anywhere around it being suitable for a tunnel portal given the disruption it would cause for rail and the increased difficulty working closer to the city centre. Adding in messing around with the road network and I'd be pretty certain it would be cheaper and easier to just tunnel a bit further.

    This is probably woefully off topic so I'll say no more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    There are no works to change Tara St in the Metrolink project, but that doesn't mean that something won't be done closer to the time.

    Tara St is a very small station, and that's why I think the Tara Metro station sends all passengers out onto the plaza rather than having an option to directly enter the DART station.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I guess DU could do the same, at least temporarily, in the unlikely event that Tara Street is not comprehensively modified/expanded to deal with the massive increase in passenger flows. There is room to widen the platforms and add a circulation area above the metrolink plaza. I strongly suspect the whole thing will be connected together in time, like it is planned to do at Glasnevin. It will almost certainly be the busiest station in Ireland by quite some margin once metrolink opens. It's unimaginable to me that the existing decrepit station would remain as is. It would be great to be able to change between all three high capacity rail routes at one point. The old reasoning against Tara Street to my mind was the desire to surface at Spencer Dock but I am really not sure there will ever be a DU docklands station now. A shorter route direct from Tara Street to Fairview (or somewhere around there) seems not altogether unlikely. Passengers heading to the docklands may have to take a DART to the new Spencer Dock station or Connolly shed and transfer to red line services to the Docklands.

    The DU tunnel would be a good bit shorter if built like that. We would not be replicating a station that will already exist at Spencer Dock and we save a station in the city centre (single interchange at Tara instead of two at SSG & Pearse). A further mined station should still be built around the Christchurch area, so two mined stations and one C&C one at Heuston. Full grade separation achieved at Heuston and Fairview ends. I think that would be something that could be financed sooner than the old plan, before metrolink was to interchange at Tara.

    I used to just accept the SSG & Pearse "requirement" for DU because it was not expected that metro north would interchange with DART at Tara. That changes the picture for me. Under the old plans for metrolink, building two DU stations to interchange with metro and DART was unavoidable. I think you either do it all at one station or do the "soviet triangle" design whereby all three lines intentionally avoid the centre a bit and create a triangle around it, with three interchange stations.

    Anyway, I think I've laboured this point enough and I guess it isn't really about DART+ so I'll drop it now :-)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,688 ✭✭✭Infini


    Honestly Tara St is in a dire state for the last several years and is badly in need of a major renovation and overhaul. Hasn't helped that the site next to Tara North is still in dispute either. Place needs to be gutted and rebuilt and South will definately need an overhaul too as it was originally designed as an overflow exit and has no wheelchair access at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I was sent that exact photo by a friend a few days ago!

    I seem to recall that the RPSI wooden-bodied set was stored in there for a long time too. Might have been after Rotem left.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 372 ✭✭PlatformNine


    A thought I had about an SD underground station is that when DU is opened, SD overground station is probably going to see much less use as services are shifted to Connolly through-services. The majority of services would hopefully be through-services to Bray meaning an underground SD station as a part of DU might have a smaller interchange potential. That's not to say SD will be underutilised post-DU, just that proportionally it will see less service than Connolly. I think Dropping SSG and SD in favour of Tara could also allow a much nicer curve and a much shorter tunnel reducing journey times.

    This actually makes me like the idea of dropping the SD and SSG stations in favour of a Tara Street station, especially since the tunnel would likely be shorter and have much nicer curves. I also believe Tara Street is going to have much better integration with BC. It would maintain B- and C-spine connections from Pearse and G-spine connections from SD if the G-spine is every routed over the Talbot Memorial Bridge (the route change would be required if DCC follows through with creating Custom House Plaza). However a Tara Street station would allow for closer conections with the D-spine being on the Quays, as well as being a shorter walk to connections with A, E, and F spines on Westmoreland and/or O'Connell street.

    Additionally what I like is that an alignment through Tara Street Station could allow for a Dame Street Station and a Connolly underground station. The Dame Street station I think would work very well with CG plaza. The Connolly station would take pressure off of interchanges with Tara Street as well as adding operational redundancy. It would also allow for a much better interchange with Enterprise and Northern line outercommuter services and additionally both stations are still very popular destinations for commuters so it may reduce the overall number of DART to DART transfers.

    That said, as a few others said Tara is a tiny station in comparison to Connolly or Pearse. It's already the 4th busiest station in the country and already desperately needs capacity improvements (platform widening mainly) let alone after ML is complete. I think if they were to try and build a third line at Tara Street there would be serious safety concerns from the platforms being too narrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,737 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Is there no existing thread for DU crayoning? Is not part of D+ and if it's ever built many of us will be long dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭gjim


    A thought I had about an SD underground station is that when DU is opened, SD overground station is probably going to see much less use as services are shifted to Connolly through-services.

    I think SD overground offers a lot of value post-DU.

    If we start DU in Clontarf (road or golf club), the this would give the opportunity to remove all up/down interactions/conflicts between IC and DART north of Connolly. All northern DART darts would enter/exit the tunnel without crossing the up/down path while at the other end it would join with a fully grade-separated alignments again avoiding all up/down crossing interactions with IC traffic.

    Then by sending Longford/Sligo IC traffic to terminate in SD overground via the Canal line, none of those trains would have any conflicts either with anything going into Connolly.

    And so DART+W would then have a completely clear path through Connolly via the Drumcondra alignment with no interaction/crossing/merging with IC traffic at all.

    Thus the Gordian knot of Connolly would be cut up for once and for all and you'd have completely free flowing DART services and Northern and Western IC services. Yes you'd have sharing of alignments but the capacity and reliability killer - having a mixture of IC and DART services crossing each other in opposite directions at grade at multiple points in the network - would be eliminated. This would completely transform the entire system to be resilient, reliable, high frequency.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭gjim


    This is a great idea but I don't think Pearse would be feasible at this stage.

    Grand Canal Dock would seem to be a much better candidate - there's far more room to widen the station and it already functions in that role to an extent.

    In fact I think it would make sense to have a two bay central terminus - which as you say would allow services to terminate there would out creating up/down crossing conflicts.

    This could act as a terminus for a selection of northern, western and southern (e.g. Rosslare) IC trains without creating conflicts. If we had DU we could also even consider using the now under-utilized PPT to allow occasional Cork services to terminate here.

    GCD is a dump anyway and needs a complete overhaul as it was originally built on the super-cheap but has since evolved with the surrounding area to be one of the most important stations on the alignment.

    It has dangerously narrow platforms, little/no cover from the elements, is grim with galvanized fencing and access is very poor - there should be entrances from the Clanwilliam side and access to all platforms should be from a single concourse under the platforms not via over-bridges.

    I think it should be a priority for DART++ or what ever the follow-up to DART+ is going to be called to completely overhaul and rebuild Tara and GCD stations to reflect their level of usage and importance (as well as DU of course!).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭OisinCooke


    While I love the idea of maximising rail catchment and connectivity within the city centre, overall I think stations at Dame Street and Connolly are quite a bad idea. The biggest advantage about the whole idea of the Tara Street routing is that you save money by eliminating two deep level mined stations at Pearse and SSG and save money on a much shorter tunnel. This would be fully put back to square one cost wise with what would need to be two mined stations on Dame Street and in Connolly. Even if built cut and cover, the stations would need to be deep enough to cross under the Metro and port tunnels respectively, so would still be extremely expensive).

    I know speed is not the overall goal of this line but I also think that 3 stations in a row in close proximity on Dame Street, Tara Street and at Connolly would hamper speeds on the line and their proximity would not likely pass a cost benefit analysis.

    While I appreciate that a Connolly station has merit in terms of a mainline link, the station does not have the capacity to deal with the added passengers this would bring and would need a serious overhaul to come close to this. Dame Street is much better served by Luas and even still it’s only around the corner from Tara Street where even present, one can make a 2 minute walk to D’Olier Street and get the 15 along most of Dame Street.

    Christchurch should definitely get a station as it is more or less halfway between Heuston and Tara catchment-wise, and can link with an SW-NE Metro and potentially another north-south and east-west Luas allignment.

    I also see your points with regard to Spencer Dock station but I think that an underground station at Spencer Dock is still viable and very worthwhile given the location in the middle of the IFSC, as well as its direct link with the Red Line and proximity to the 3Arena but if it comes to it, I don’t think it’s a necessity. I think Christchurch should take priority over it, if it’s a case of a limited number of stations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    There's actually probably enough room in the Connolly station car park and the waste land to the south of it to build a C&C station there, if one wanted to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,233 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    All sold off to developers, who appear to have run out of money to build



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,140 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,479 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Let’s buy it back at a loss from them. Critical piece of real estate sold off for a quick buck.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Madness, but par for the course. CIE has sold off far too much land of potential strategic importance to keep its senior people in the lifestyle they are accustomed to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,140 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Fck it.


    CPO it then.

    For the people or the few?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Cut-price tunnel options compared:

    1. 2019 proposal but cut the western end: Heuston-Stephen’s Green-Pearse-Docklands: 5.25 km
    image.png

    2. Drop SSG, Heuston-Docklands via Pearse: 4.89 km (360 m shorter)

    image.png

    3. Drop SSG, Heuston-Docklands via Tara St: 4.78 km (480 m shorter than #1, 120 m shorter than option #2)

    image.png

    Because you’re mostly travelling east, but have to be facing roughly north at the eastern end of the tunnel, the savings in tunnelling turn out to be negligible for these “shorter” options. Also, the Tara option involves more curves and theoretically could be slower from station to station than the Pearse one as a result.

    And it’s only the station build cost that’s being saved: the only significant saving on tunnelling cost is at the Western end of the project. Any change of routing through the city has a negligible effect. Personally, I think dropping SSG would not save enough of the project cost to compensate for the loss of passenger benefit from removing it.

    As an aside, the direct Heuston-Northern Line link with no intermediate stations was ruled out in both studies as being of very little passenger benefit: people don’t want to go to either of those places, they only get out there now because they have to: they actually want to go to Dublin centre. As far as I see it, the whole point of a DART tunnel from a passenger’s point of view is the provision of two new DART stations at SSG and Christchurch.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,431 ✭✭✭Consonata


    Station Build cost is most of the cost of these projects, if it was a simple TBM of keeping it underground for an additional 300m it would be kept, but mining out a massive station under two active railways is no small cost



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I wonder is there a broad idea about how fournorth will work. My gut instinct says that if DU was to proceed as originally planned at SD, it would make sense to make the slow lines the eastern pair and the fast lines the western pair. Everything DART would be sent through the tunnel. The Kildare Route could be reconfigured, such that the slow lines are the southern pair so they can peel off at Heuston (assuming a station under St. John's Road) with no need for complex grade separation, enter the tunnel and emerge east of the slow running lines of four north, continuing seamlessly onwards towards Drogheda, also with no requirement for grade separation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,258 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    If they were made the slow lines, it would significantly simplify the tie ins of the proposed fast line to Portarlington and the Sligo/Mullingar connector, though a train underpass out in the Kildare countryside probably wouldn't be too problematic...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 186 ✭✭OisinCooke


    I think that in the current climate, emerging from a tunnel at Spencer Dock is more or less impossible, Clontarf (Road or Golf Club) is far more likely so whatever tie-in is done will be fully graded separated anyway.

    I’m not sure what the plan is (I believe that is within the scope of the ongoing and appear soon-to-be-released report) in terms of what sides of the line trains will run on, it would certainly make sense for the slow lines (DART) to use the western two tracks - direct access to Howth and to Spencer Dock surface level station - and the fast lines (intercity) to use the eastern lines - direct access to a potential fast line to Drogheda.

    But, there are arguments for both for either side, like how if the slow lines were on the west, DARTs from the south could use the northern lines unimpeded (even though in a post DU X-style running pattern they may not need to regularly) and that a direct Howth connection isn’t necessary with the shuttle style service anyway, along with the western lines being the easiest to tie in with a tunnel (Fairview Park and the golf club are on this side of the line) but this is probably a discussion best left to the FourNorth thread and the planners.

    With regards to Heuston, the same applies with grade separation, I think a flying/diving fully grade separated diveunder should be used here again, given the grade separation required for a high frequency metro-style service, so I’m not sure it makes much of a difference which side they’re on but at Heuston, the slow lines will definitely be staying where they are, as they are the only 2 out of the 4 electrified and it keeps access to the PPT open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    That's exactly the point I was making. Seeking a “short” route through the city is mostly a waste of time. Once you’ve dropped one of the station from the plan, you have saved so much that you can basically bring the tunnel wherever you want. I don’t see any easy wins for building the city-centre stations either. Of the proposed stations, SSG could be cut-and-cover, but it would be the mother of all court battles to get permission to dig a huge pit in the Green (and/or closing SSG South or North to all traffic for three years); Christchurch could be dug down more easily, but it's closing a major traffic artery in the city (maybe not a bad thing in the long run, but a major headache during). Pearse will have to be mined, because there’s just no room nearby, plus the best routing of the tunnel is directly under Pearse station itself.

    The difficulty is compounded by Metrolink, which has placed its tunnel at 20 m below ground for the most part, which in turn makes it easy to dig out a station, as shown in the Metrolink plans. Twenty metres is the closest to the surface you can reasonably go, as it guarantees you won’t affect any modern basements or buried infrastructure that you didn’t know about (although ML did rediscover a Victorian-era sewer during planning!). So, because Metrolink is as high as it can be, wherever the two lines cross, the DART tunnel must go under Metro.

    Generally, heavy rail lines like DART are built at a gradient of 3.33% or less, with many operators preferring to keep things below 2.5%, but the shallower you make these gradients, the faster and cheaper the service will be to operate. ( IÉ doesn’t publish their specs on this, but maybe someone here knows?) That limit is the biggest problem with putting a DART station near to the planned Metrolink line if you want to use cut/cover construction for the DART station.

    The Tara Street option would be the most difficult interchange to construct, as it would need to be a very deep station (at least 35 m below surface), because it would be right next to the Metro structures which already extend down to around 30 metres depth here (parts of the Tara metro station themselves reach to 35 m below surface, although most of the main box sits approximately 26 m below surface):

    image.png


    At that depth, cut/cover in a tight streetscape really isn’t going to be any cheaper than mining.

    A direct-to-Pearse option is a little better in terms of depth, because the crossing point with the Metro tunnel would be at the end of Leinster St, south-east corner of Trinity, 350 m from Pearse, where the Metro tunnel itself drops to about 29 m below surface, so the DART tunnel would need to be at around 38 or even 40 m below surface. Climbing 20 metres in 350 is a 5% gradient - far in excess of the desired.

    Running the tunnel via St Stephen’s Green puts that Metrolink/DART crossing point 750 m from Pearse. The metro tunnel isn’t as deep here, and there’s enough of a run to come back closer to the surface, but in practice, the streetscape above would almost guarantee that this needs to mined. The only way it wouldn’t is if the box itself was dug down under Merrion Square, and connecting pedestrian ramps were mined out to Pearse station (250 m) - and to SSG Metro (300 m). I suggested this in passing as a cheapo option for dropping St Stephen’s Green before, but it’s really a “least bad” solution rather than a better one: it’s inferior to having a shorter direct link at Pearse.

    All that said, I would question the wisdom of dropping a station in the first place.

    [Depth information is from the MetroLink alignment plans, here: Metrolink General Arrangement - Dublin City Council ; Tara Street box diagram from Metrolink Structures - Dublin City Council I have assumed DART Underground would be a single-bore tunnel; if it's twin-bore, take about 4 m from the required DART depths, but it doesn’t change much]

    Post edited by KrisW1001 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,029 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I actually prefer the Merrion Square+ pedestrian tunnels to SSG + Pearse than dropping SSG. DU has to provide high quality interchange with ML. High quality, being defined as staying completely dry and warm/cool despite the weather outside. A 350m tunnel equipped with travelators fits that bill for me.

    Kris, is your gradient figure for heavy rail generally or heavy electrified rail or heavy electrified rail in a dry tunnel environment? I'm assuming the limits are higher where dryness of wheels and rails can be guaranteed. Wheel slip often only occurs on wet rails.

    With DU the trains will all be capable of regenerative braking so much of the energy required to climb a gradient can be recovered going back down the other side.

    I'd take any of the proposed options as long as DU interchanges with both Dart and ML. They are all a million times better than what we have now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    One minor annoyance about the Merrion idea is that the ML station has its entrance turned away from Merrion Square, and the corner of the station building that faces that way has the services in it, but it the will was there it's nothing that couldn't be worked around.:

    image.png


    My figure for gradient comes from trawling the internet, and I would assume it’s for electrified heavy rail (passenger) in all conditions, but each railway appears to have their own limit. Freight railways, especially outside of Europe, prefer extremely shallow gradients (0.25%). My limited studies of mechanical engineering would tell me that EMUs can take higher gradients than Locomotive-hauled trains as they have more driven wheels, and as you say, rain or leaves don't fall on rails that are in tunnels. There are some places, however, where you just can’t get around the problem of too high a climb in too short a distance and a cut/cover station at Tara is one.

    It’s not so much the energy used as the effect on service speed - you can’t accelerate as fast up a steep slope as a shallow one. Where stations are fairly close together, that difference may be significant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,436 ✭✭✭Pete_Cavan


    Come on lads, there is zero chance of Merrion Square being dug up and several hundred metres of tunnels being mined out under some of the most important Georgian buildings in Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,589 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    As I said, I don’t think this is a particularly good idea, but if people think that deleting a station from the plans is the only way to get DU built, then this is the least-bad option. I think removing the Christchurch station, or trying to place something between it and St Stephen’s Green would be a bigger problem for less utility.

    But if this is a difficult sell (and I agree that it is), what’s the chance of draining the lake in St Stephen’s Green and closing that park to the public for three years? Less than zero? The whole DART Underground is full of location requirements that make mining the only viable option for its stations, but Merrion Square is the only piece of open ground in this part of Dublin that has a hope of being used for a cut and cover excavation. It’s also worth noting that, unlike some of the other Georgian squares, Merrion Square belongs to Dublin City Council: It was originally bought from the residents by the Church as the site of a proposed cathedral for Dublin, but was passed back to the Corporation in the 1970s.

    A mined pedestrian tunnel to Pearse would largely avoid the buildings on Merrion Square North. Even if it didn’t, I don’t think there’s a single private residence on this side of the square, and commercial landlords tend to be much more rational when it comes to having major transportation built in front of their doors: that goes double for the institutional funds that own most of these buildings.

    A similar straight-line tunnel to SSG would go mostly under the garden of the Department of the Taoiseach’s buildings on Merrion St and the very clearly 20th century buildings at the western end of Merrion Row.

    It’s worth remembering that MetroLink will go under just as many important buildings - one of them being Leinster House itself, and yet it’s on the way to getting permission.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 98 ✭✭A1ACo


    Hi, I just posted below article for comparison over in the Dublin Underground - Options chat

    Station to station: first look at the Metro Tunnel set to revolutionise Melbourne travel | Melbourne | The Guardian

    …In terms of what can be done in tunnelling for (heavy) rail in city areas



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