DART+ (DART Expansion)

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123588769#Comment_123588769

If a service was about to open, then we should hope the provider would be giving indications of service levels. Dart plus appears to be happening. At least a few shiny trains have been seen on the tracks.

However, we have yet to get planning for metro, or even a date for planning. Then we have the prospect of a few JRs and hope they will be expedited. Then tendering, and construction. So a decade.

Perhaps we should concentrate on colour schemes for the carriages and stations - as these have to be decided before a single passenger gets to ride on a metro train or a Dart BEMU.

The details of how passengers manage interchanges is quite some time away.

murphaph

I wonder could an entrance to the Connolly circulation area be added at this door on Seville Place at a later date. That would extend the Connolly catchment area quite a bit.

https://maps.app.goo.gl/e3npRQDH3gKko1197

I'm wondering how with 12 tph from Clonsilla to at least Glasnevin Junction they will squeeze outer suburban and Sligo Inter City trains in there. There's no passing loops planned along that stretch are there?

Agree that this will be a game changer and hopefully re-awaken the general public's interest in rail based transport. If this and by some miracle Metrolink goes ahead, it will become something people expect rather than see as a gift from the Gods. Just like good roads are now expected rather than something other countries have.

I remember when Clonsilla was still a sleepy rural station and you'd need to carefully check the timetable before setting off to catch your train. The idea of a turn up at go metro-like frequency is quite a change. I do hope that the billions being spent on this sort of infrastructure sees local authorities compelled through legislation to increase permeability to widen the catchment areas of stations to their absolute limits. Still far, far too many high walls and palisade fences separating housing estates from each other, leaving one side with a much longer walk to their nearest stop/station. That nonsense has to end.

Zebra3

Empty fields adjacent to Clonsilla station too.

That needs to change too.

murphaph

Yeah for sure, we can't have land adjacent to these high density corridors not being zoned appropriately, mostly residential.

Former Former Former

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123589398#Comment_123589398

that land has been zoned residential for years and construction has recently started, will eventually have thousands of units there

GerardKeating

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123588769#Comment_123588769

Given the 'success' in recruiting drivers over the past decade, that might be wise…

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123589418#Comment_123589418

I think you'll find development is already planned for a lot of the areas close to the train stations close to Clonsilla. But as usually happens, land owners will hold out as long as they can, to push up the price of their land.

There's something like 3000 units going in beside Hansfield, including a Railway Quarter, beside the train station.

And a new development beside Dunboyne station is already well under way, the past number of months.

murphaph

An undeveloped zoned land tax set at the right level (with yearly increments) should "encourage" development of land banks I guess.

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123590779#Comment_123590779

It's one thing when people are just banking land. But a lot of the land around there is land that's been farmed for generations. You can't just force them to sell up.

murphaph

Of course you can, indirectly, through the tax code. There is a concept of the greater good. It's why things like CPOs exist. A farmer can be compelled to sell his or her land to build a motorway for the greater good, even if they don't want to. There is nothing stopping a tax regime that imposes a tax on undeveloped zoned land. It's actually quite common that undeveloped zoned land is taxed at a rate far higher than land zoned for agricultural use. That's certainly how it is in Germany. The property tax is based on the value and zoned land adjacent to a railway is worth a lot more so the tax on it is much higher.

Geuze

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123590779#Comment_123590779

The RZLT tax is 3%.

DubToDeise

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123586160#Comment_123586160

Maybe someone with a bit of a better understanding of this might be able to explain, but what's the point of the through trains to Bray? Surely you could just change at Connolly?

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592574#Comment_123592574

It's just a continuation of the service. Why change at Connolly if there's no need to?

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123591421#Comment_123591421

of course we can, that's how all linear infrastructure is built.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592675#Comment_123592675

In normal countries, that is how it is done. Unfortunately in Ireland, people quote the Constitution and our compulsory purchase legislation is not fit for purpose.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592574#Comment_123592574

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the dart coastal service capacity restricted by non-dart services running on the northern line, so in theory there's more capacity south of Connolly, hence the ability of the southern portion to accommodate through-services from Maynooth.

goingnowhere

Once a Maynooth train has reached Connolly there is no capacity cost to continue to Bray or Dun Laoghaire, terminating at Connolly has capacity impacts as you need to find a platform to hold the train for at least 7 minutes

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592792#Comment_123592792

well we built 1,000kms of motorway in less than a decade and that land came from CPO

murphaph

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592574#Comment_123592574

If IE could run the system exactly as it wanted I suspect most or all DART+ West trains would go to Bray and predominantly Northern Line trains would be terminated in Spencer Dock or Connolly as it would eliminate conflicting movements considerably.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592962#Comment_123592962

IIRC that was the Dart Underground plan; Bray-Maynooth and Drogheda-Hazelhatch (via the tunnel) with interchange at Pearse.

LastCall

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592962#Comment_123592962

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123592962#Comment_123592962

I think this will happen within a few years of D+.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123593208#Comment_123593208

Would create the conditions for pressure for Dart Underground.

riddlinrussell

It would be the next real 'gate' on further expansion of Dublins commuter rail, if you got the D+ team working out on the broader national schemes of rail improvement for a few years to continue the development ball you could build up steam for Dart+ Tunnel and hopefully keep some of the relationships and connections from Metrolink for further developing tunnel expertise etc.

cgcsb

Jacobs have been hired by IÉ to carry out a study of options to improve capacity and journey time on Dublin-Galway so we might see intercity projects kicking off while DART+ is still under construction. A decision to double track parts of the Galway line is the likely outcome of that exercise. There definitely seems to be momentum towards a more continuous stream of projects mentality with less emphasis on feast/famine style approach to infrastructure. Cork commuter rail is going to ABP in a few months, which hopefully should be straight forward and we'll have the first 25kV AC electrification in Ireland. My bet would be Drogheda-Newry to be next which would really cut down on the amount of diesel in Connolly. The momentum always makes things seem more 'doable'. I think for now DART+ Tunnel is a bit pie in the sky and might seem a bit fur coat and no-knickers in comparison to the current state of the railway generally.

riddlinrussell

Oh absolutely, I'd say Dublin is 'done' for a while after Dart+ and FourNorth when it comes to heavy rail. Getting reliable, frequent and faster journeys on the intercity routes will be the next big one there.

Ideally metro 2 would be starting to be looked at now to retain the expertise, aiming to be shovel ready when they finish Metro 1, then maybe the Tunnel can absorb that workforce after that.

loyatemu

Interview with Irish Rail's new COO from the Indo, mentions D+ and other stuff

https://archive.ph/Q3y5p

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123594056#Comment_123594056

From that, it seems that 33 of the 37 new trains have already been delivered..more good news for a timely introduction. (typo in the story: "335 car units" should read "33 5-car units")

gjim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123593535#Comment_123593535

I disagree - Dublin is not "done" in terms of heavy rail after DART+.

By not completing the network with DART-U we are wasting so much potential. The rest of Europe figured out how to run metro-style services (3 or less minute frequencies) over heavy rail decades ago - and there's nothing at all special about Dublin's heavy rail configuration - in fact it follows the classic pattern you see everywhere. This article give a good historical overview: https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-magic-of-through-running/

After DART+, the 4 DART branches will have the theoretical capacity to bring about 70 trains/hour into the centre. Except that capacity cannot be used as there's nowhere for these trains to go in the centre, neither in terms of through-running or terminal capacity.

FourNorth does nothing to help with the issue, the limit of 12 DARTs/hour arriving from the north isn't caused by the hourly train from Belfast, it's caused by the fact that that's the maximum rate that can be accommodated in the centre as effectively DART S, SW and N all have to share a single piece of through-running infrastructure which is capped at 20 DARTs/hour.

You could 8-track the northern coastal line, and you'd still be stuck at 12 DARTs/hour unless you want to cut services from DART-S or DART-SW.

murphaph

Exactly. The more we spend on network upgrades in the Dublin area, the greater the lost capacity becomes due to no through running of the vast bulk of the trains. DART+ actually improves the business case for DU if anything.

riddlinrussell

If you read my comment, I said Dublin would be 'done' except DART+ Tunnel but that the IR design teams will probably be spending a good few years working on the network beyond Dublin, and the Tunnel will likely be long fingered for a good while, but that doesn't have to be a disaster if the tunnelling expertise developed from metro projects, and the large project experience developed by IE doing a lot of national projects could synergise well to get the tunnel planned and built with minimal pain