DART+ (DART Expansion)

riddlinrussell

"The Legal System" gets altered all the time in fairness, the planning courts are an example of that, but a wholesale scrapping of the common law system in favour of a European style system isn't happening outside a total government system change (I.e. revolution/extreme left or right wing party in total control/invasion by a foreign power)

Our best shot was when Napoleon tried to invade, the European legal code is probably his longest lasting and most significant impact on the continent.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123516199#Comment_123516199

I think that there's potential for a mixed planning/legal inquiry route, which, if more disciplined than the time that they used it for the Luas, could result in a faster process.

If the person running the project was used to dealing with planning cases, and outside of the politics of it, they could avoid the pitfalls that really caused delays in the process for the Luas, i.e. look into all the options in a non-statutory process before hand, so you don't stop the inquiry to look into something.

Justice Humphreys, head of the planning court, would be ideal for something like this.

Former Former Former

In fairness, the Railway Order process is about as streamlined as it's ever going to get.

PH0NER

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123512279#Comment_123512279

My comment was in regards to the one above me.

Meanwhile other EU countries that are signed up to the same planning rules and regulations as us just quickly, quietly and cheaply build out their metros. Copenhagen is adding a 5th metro line after some months of planning and Madrid is finally extending its line 5 to the airport for a mere €180mil for 1.7km. Roughly 10% of the metrolink costs on a per km basis.

They mentioned other EU countries are doing similar project quickly, quietly, and cheaply.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123518830#Comment_123518830

Well there are two points:

Firstly while we all sign up to the same regulations, how those rules get implemented in local law differs depending on the legal system used and how it interacts with various other laws, constitution and judicial systems in each country.

So an international regulation transposed into a country with a civil law legal system like Spain will practically speaking end up looking quiet different from those transposed into a common law legal system like Ireland.

Secondly Copenhagen and Madrid already have multiple Metro lines and are experienced at rolling them out. They have learned from their mistakes and gotten good at building them and the companies who bid on their contracts know that they actually follow through on those projects.

Unfortunately doing something big like this for the first time is just going to be harder and more expensive then in a country with lots of experience of doing it.

Not that we can't, I'd point to the massive intercity Motorway building of the 2000's as a great example of us doing it right. However the finical disaster of 2007 devastated us and we lost most of that expertise and experience to other countries and now are trying to rebuild it.

Former Former Former

Just to note, the Copenhagen Metro Line 5 was originally proposed in 2018 and is due to open in two stages in 2036 and 2045. That's 27 years from start to finish.

As bad as our planning and infrastructure delivery might be, I'm always skeptical of people pointing to how other countries can do XYZ much more quickly and cheaply.

Kermit.de.frog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480779#Comment_123480779

There is not one major transport project under construction anywhere in the country at the moment and hasn't been for over a decade. All stuck in the bureaucratic planning and political circus we have running here.

The whole system needs to be completely overhauled. We can't get anything done.

AngryLips

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123520038#Comment_123520038

Yea ultimately, from a distance, you only really observe the end result so how qualified are any of us to comment on other countries' planning systems?

riddlinrussell

N5 is under construction as we speak is it not?

Birdhill-Killaloe bypass just opened?

What is your criteria for a major construction project?

DART+ has actually progressed fairly quickly (yes obviously significant speed improvements could and should be made for future projects).

I do remain mystified why tendering etc (at least to some extent) cannot take place in tandem with awaiting approval or at least JR. Anyone preparing a tender who "doesn't make the cut" is as put out as anyone making a tender and the plan getting rejected, I'd look at it as the difference between approval/JR completion being followed by maybe up to 6 months of finalising the contract/tendering process and it being 6 months till we see an initial tender document