DART+ (DART Expansion)

Thunder87

Is there any plan for Hueston West beyond just stopping more trains at the existing half arsed 'station'?

I've never actually used it but looking at the connection path on Google maps it's a long open air walk through a grim looking car park, and forces people to walk all the way up the side of the building instead of just allowing entrance at the back of the main station

https://maps.app.goo.gl/Kei4TehP6Aam7Spc9

Citizen Six

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122987016#Comment_122987016

There’s an entrance 100m past your google image.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122986306#Comment_122986306

I was confused about that so I have been trying to find anything, and I think he misread Clongriffin as Connolly. From memory Clongriffin and Drogheda are the only stations getting new platforms as a part of D+, and I don't think there have been any recent plans to add a new platform to Connolly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122986314#Comment_122986314

like DrivingSouth said, good phasing will help a lot, but truthfully I think it will still be capacity restricted. DARTs will likely have a much quicker turnaround time than an IC services, so while freeing the 4 hourly DARTs from Heuston with DU will help, long term I still don't think it's enough. It's little off topic so I don't want to get too much into into the discussion about IC services here, but after D+SW is complete, IE wants to take full advantage of the completed four-tracking. The DARTs are of course the obvious service increases, but I have been reading through their other plans and IE wants to massively increase core IC services out of Heuston. Then AISRR's reccomendations are only going to further increase the number of services, not just with the Sligo services to Heuston, but also Wexford services to Heuston using the Waterford-Rosslare line.

cgcsb

DART+ is really all about DART+ West. The other projects are side shows with tight budgets, DART+ West is the one with all the bells and whistles. The deficiencies in the other schemes will have to be addressed in later projects such as 4North and new stations on the south west line.

I suppose they couldn't let the DART+ programme get too big, it is basically 50+ years of neglected upgrades rolled into one investment programme. Compare the largesse of building a new Spencer Dock Station underground to replace Docklands while building a 'Heuston West' with substandard pedestrian access to the main station.

KrisW1001

South-West has the most extensive (and expensive) track works: it's the only one of the four projects where an additional track will be provided.

The location of the PPT relative to Heuston pretty much guarantees that Heuston West will be an inconvenient interchange.

loco_scolo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122987904#Comment_122987904

A decent solution to this (at least until DU is built, and even after) is to expand a Dart station further out like Clondalkin-Fonthill or Hazelhatch and have all Intercity trains stop there. Clondalkin-Fonthill would be great as it will also interchange with a future MetroWest.

At least 6, or likely 8, platforms would be needed for it to function correctly but it would be a huge benefit for passengers alighting and boarding. Think connections to Tallaght and Blanch, as well as all stations on Dart SW, without needing to go to Heuston then double back.

cgcsb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122987904#Comment_122987904

South West isn't nearly as expensive as west. The south west line has actually seen some upgrades and maintenance in the past 20 years, the Maynooth line is decrepit, the signalling infrastructure is some copper wire burried under ballast. The DART West scheme also includes some serious budget bursters like Spencer Dock Station, the Ashtown underpass, the Barberstown Road bridge etc. all mega structures in their own right in an Irish context. plus you have many bridge reconstructions, 4 level crossing schemes and new ped bridges and at least a dozen track lowers. It's a different scale of project to south west.

A proper pedestrian link from HW to the main station would do fine, the distance isn't that great compared to the set up in similarly aged large stations across Europe.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122986314#Comment_122986314

Well bear in mind that you can have two trains in most of the Heuston platforms at any one time (excluding the Mark 4 sets) so I think that allows plenty of flexibility.

goingnowhere

There is passive provision for a 9th platform at Heuston if needed

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122982171#Comment_122982171

Connolly is the busiest station by default.

Always very overrated by people with the bias of having their train end up there.

I think Tara will overtake it once Metrolink starts running and I’d expect that Cross Gunns will take a huge amount of intercity traffic if Sligo trains (for example) stop there.

It’s better located than Heuston but I am not sure what that has to do with it. Heuston is good enough for more intercity trains so why not Sligo? If it improves overall services, I’m not going to lose sleep over Connolly stopping.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988123#Comment_122988123

How can it be busiest by default when most of the busier intercity services arrive at Heuston.

If there was any point to DART Underground at all, it was to get passengers where they don't want to be (Heuston) to where they want to be (Connolly/Tara/Pearse) .

Cross guns will be great when it opens but mostly by virtue about how comparatively well connected it will be with the rest of the city. It'll also facilitate transfer onto trains bound for GCD, or Spencer Dock either which are major trip generators. Heuston is a fantastic rail yard, a pretty bleak destination for travellers.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988416#Comment_122988416

Sorry, but to say that the point of Dart Unteerground was to get people from where they didn't want to be to whare they wanted to be (i.e from Heuson to Connolly, Pearse,etc) is totally wrong. The point was generally to improve connectivity, including running commuter trains from the Southern main line direct through to much of the city centre.

As for stopping Sligo trains at Cross Guns, as well as Drumcondra and Broombridge, I wonder what's the point. If there are Dart+ EMUs from Maynooth every few minures, why not terminate SLigo trains at Maynooth, a bit like what is proposed fro Greystones?

I can only imagine the outrage!

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988454#Comment_122988454

Vastly different scenarios though, the Sligo line would be double track for all of the dart sections, with no real issues with running an intercity service through on the gaps. The Wexford line has single track between two of the stations resulting in a massive bottleneck, which has no real prospect of getting solved anytime soon.

In saying that, I wouldn't support the Intercity trains stopping at more than one station at stations served by DART, which should almost certainly be Glasnevin to interchange with Metrolink.

Economics101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988502#Comment_122988502

There is a problem with running Sligo trains between DART+ trains. Maynooth-Connolly with Dart+ will be close to 40 minutes, Non-stop Sligo trains should be less than 30 minutes. So unless the Sligo train crawls along there would ne large gaps in the DART+ timetable.

Even if Greystones to Bray were double track there would be similar problems on the South-eastern line.

DrivingSouth

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988793#Comment_122988793

This is why the idea of connecting the sligo line to Heuston is out there. While south West and north have plans for 4 tracking, that will never be possible for West or south east. But if we move the IC traffic to Heuston, problem solved.

Now, how easy it will be to build those connecting tracks, that's another days work.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988416#Comment_122988416

Because it is the only north city centre DART station.

It isn’t particularly well located. Now Heuston isn’t either, that’s accepted.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988454#Comment_122988454

One mode change to the city core (OCS to SSG).

Two I think is unfair.

CatInABox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988793#Comment_122988793

If you're looking for a clue as to how the NTA and Irish Rail think on this, you need look no further than what they've already implemented on South East line. The wexford trains now "crawl" along in between the reduced gap between Darts, and despite many complaints from users, there's been no moving them.

They have clearly decided that they should prioritise the service that moves the most amount of people, and I'd expect them to make the exact same decision on the Sligo line as well.

Also, Merry Christmas everyone!!!

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122989130#Comment_122989130

They have to run directly behind a DART to Greystones as that DART then heads back north from Greystones when the Rosslare train arrives there.

There is no other way of scheduling the Rosslare trains around Bray Head.

Otherwise you’d lose frequency in Greystones.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122989240#Comment_122989240

Could the South bound rosslare train over take the South bound dart at bray daly station by going on the middle road and not having it as a stop for the rosslare train, of it does currently stop there. Seems like a fairly simple thing to schedule and cater for.

Consonata

If Metrolink ever reached Bray in future, there would be a strong case for Wexford services terminating there given the speed of each service to the city centre.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122989506#Comment_122989506

No because the DART would then not be able to make the turnaround at Greystones.

highdef

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122989965#Comment_122989965

Can you explain why? I'm not familiar with the trackwork at greystone so I don't know the specifics of the particular approach method required to allow it be able to turn back there.

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122990685#Comment_122990685

The pathing around Bray Head is very tight.

Currently on weekdays during the day, the single track around Bray Head is occupied by DARTs as below:

xx:01 - xx:12 - Northbound DART

xx:13 - xx:22 - Southbound DART

xx:31 - xx:42 - Northbound DART

xx:43 - xx:52 - Southbound DART

The DART driver needs time to switch ends plus you also need recovery time in the event of the southbound train running late - turnaround time is typically 9-10 mins which is really the bare minimum.

You would halve that by holding the southbound DART at Bray to let the Rosslare overtake, even using the benefit of the split signals which allow two trains in the same direction follow one another once the first has cleared the signal section, and that’s simply not enough time to allow for a turnaround. It would make maintaining the half hourly DART service at Greystones service impossible.

There are only two slots each hour available to Rosslare trains and they are the two that are unoccupied above.

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122988028#Comment_122988028

With a large chunk of the ICR fleet being extended to 6-car sets (about a third I think), its going to be more difficult to have 2 trains at the same platform. The platforms are 45-50m too short for 2x 6-car sets. And a number of the 3-car and 4-car sets are also joined to form 7-car trains. Of course a 6- or 7-car set can share a platform with a 4-car or 3-car set, but it could be a problem if during the busiest times of the day half the fleet can't share platforms with eachother.

Additionally like you mention the mk4s are too long to share platforms, but I also think full length D+ sets might also be too long to share platforms with even another half length D+ set.

There is definitely some flexibility with the platform lengths, but as the fleet expands to accomodate the number of passangers, we will loose some of that flexibility. And depending on what IE picks for the Enterprise and if that same unit gets selected to supplement/replace the rest of the fleet, it could further restrict the capacity at Heuston.

scrabtom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122990969#Comment_122990969

Is there space to extend the platforms?

LXFlyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122990969#Comment_122990969

Well then there may have to be increased shunting of trains when the station is busiest.

Regardless, there’s plenty of track capacity available.

roadmaster

A spur for sligo intercity trains to heuston is that an actual thing or is it just based on a suggestion by a local sligo Cllr?

If they did built a spur would there be in the future as the GDA expands that the future locals demand a dart service on the line and then in turn that would cause delays to the new sligo intercity line and we end up with the same issue 25 years down the line?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122991685#Comment_122991685

Its in the AISRR.

Any potential loss of direct connection to Maynooth and hence MU, Drumcondra and DCU and even now Broombridge/TUD would actually cause uproar in Sligo; so that idea won't ever come from the Sligo end!

PlatformNine

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122991021#Comment_122991021

Its hard to say. I read through the SW RO again and I noticed that there are some platform works planned for platforms 6-8. Generally it looks like they are just simple modifcations to the platform ends to go along with the track improvements on the approach into Heuston. Though, they may be planning some extensions to allow 6, 7, and 8 to accomodate 3x DART units, even if just for overnight stabling. I think they only need 15-20m to be able to practically accomodate 3 units. And it might also be possible to further extend 7 and 8 to accomodate 2x 6-car ICRs as the points are being shifted much further away from the platform than they are now, however it would be very close so its difficult to say if its possible. Otherwise without getting the crayons out to realign the entire Heuston yard I think only platform 3 could be extended, though like platforms 7 and 8, if its possible it would be very close to the point ahead of the platform.