DART+ (DART Expansion)

Aard

@Jack Noble:
I myself know that you won't need a seperate ticket, but everyone I've spoken to about it has thought so. I'd wager that most people in the city think that too.

Jack Noble

Aard wrote: »

@Jack Noble:
I myself know that you won't need a seperate ticket, but everyone I've spoken to about it has thought so. I'd wager that most people in the city think that too.

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

Wild Bill

Jack Noble wrote: »

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

That would be the integrated ticketing that was originally planned to be in place by 1997?

BrianD

Jack Noble wrote: »

I would expect the RPA to ramp up marketing Metro North when the final PPP bid is in, when construction begins and when the finished line is about to become operational.

And the same for Irish Rail when it comes to Dart Underground.

Integrated ticketing will in common use by then - 2017-2020.

Well aren't do doing a wonderful job! Perhaps the real reason that they are unwilling to bring further attention it and awkward questions may arise. I'm in favour of public transport and would be generally be favourable towards new initiatives but can see that this ones a dud. Despite their clout, They have been unable to persuade the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald. They want to ramp up their marketing and public information pretty fast or they'll lose the general public.

The RPA don't have a great record in project delivery (Green and Red line construction) and they've been kicking about this integrated ticketing for 9 years. We should have this already but HP are only getting a sniff at it since last April. In the RPA FAQ they state "there is no system in existence that meets the requirements of the Irish market. " WTF? If there are "ecumenical issues" they should publicly state this, suspend the project and hand it back to the responsible minister.

It makes far much more sense and delivers more utility and value to Dublin to maximise our existing rail network through the construction of the DU and related projects (e.g.signaling). Then we can move onto other projects.

In the interim, Dublin Airport is well served by bus routes which can be expanded. Swords and Lissenhall are 5km from existing rail lines. It wouldn't take much to devise a local bus network feeding into the northern line from Swords. Not unlike that happens in Germany to outer suburbs served by S Bahns. Ballymun and DCU could be served by a surface tram route. Plenty of available options without spending on a white elephant that is Metro North.

Wild Bill

the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald.

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

Jack Noble

BrianD wrote: »

Well aren't do doing a wonderful job! Perhaps the real reason that they are unwilling to bring further attention it and awkward questions may arise. I'm in favour of public transport and would be generally be favourable towards new initiatives but can see that this ones a dud. Despite their clout, They have been unable to persuade the two most prolific and informed writers on thos topic in the papers - Myers and McDonald. They want to ramp up their marketing and public information pretty fast or they'll lose the general public.

It is the govt's job to sell Metro North through the RPA. There is no need to do that yet until the final PPP bids are in and the price of the project is known. That will begin this summer/autumn when the cost details are known and the CBA updated. Only then will a decision be taken on whether the project proceeds or not. If it goes ahead, then expect the major PR offensive, not before. Plenty of information is available on RPA and T21 websites for anyone interested in understanding Metro and Luas projects.

The idea that McDonald and Myers are essential to that is laughable. McDonald has taken a dogmatic stance on the project since the start and cannot be persuaded - it would be like trying to persuade Ruairi Ó Bradaigh to accept the Good Friday Agreement. Myers is an eccentric loon who will never be taken seriously by anyone other than eccentric loons.

The RPA don't have a great record in project delivery (Green and Red line construction) and they've been kicking about this integrated ticketing for 9 years. We should have this already but HP are only getting a sniff at it since last April. In the RPA FAQ they state "there is no system in existence that meets the requirements of the Irish market. " WTF? If there are "ecumenical issues" they should publicly state this, suspend the project and hand it back to the responsible minister.

The RPA has delivered Red and Green Luas lines and two extensions with a third under construction, while also bringing Metro North to RO stage and Metro West and Luas BXD to RO application stage before ABP. All were delivered on time and on budget.

I agree that the Integrated Ticketing project is a fiasco but much of that is down to govt failure to knock heads together at RPA, Dub Bus and IE to ensure the project is delivered. Govt policy and lack of direction is as much to blame as petty game-playing by various state agencies. But we should see IT later this year. Better late than never, I say.

It makes far much more sense and delivers more utility and value to Dublin to maximise our existing rail network through the construction of the DU and related projects (e.g.signaling). Then we can move onto other projects.

DU is not ready to proceed and won't be for at least two years thanks to Irish Rail. It has had DU/Interconnector on drawing board since 1995 but only decided two years ago to completely redesign the entire project. That is what has caused the delay to DU.

In the interim, Dublin Airport is well served by bus routes which can be expanded. Swords and Lissenhall are 5km from existing rail lines. It wouldn't take much to devise a local bus network feeding into the northern line from Swords. Not unlike that happens in Germany to outer suburbs served by S Bahns. Ballymun and DCU could be served by a surface tram route. Plenty of available options without spending on a white elephant that is Metro North.

Metro North will not be a white elephant. What evidence have you to support that frankly daft statement? It will serve more major trip generators than any other line in the city. And given the success of the two Luas lines, it will be even more successful and popular as Luas given that it serves areas hitherto unserved by rapid rail.

Two generations of transport planners have recommended a rapid rail system to serve North Dublin city and the northern suburbs (1975 and 2001), yet random geniuses on the internet seem to know better. Guess what? You don't and the last 10 years have proved that.

On street Luas was a mistake and a very expensive one at that. It simply does not have the capacity to serve demand-led growth. Both lines are now at peak capacity and there is no scope for expansion.

There is also no room for surface Luas lines in north Dublin city - that is why the Ballymun Luas line was abandoned in 1999/2000. And that is why Luas is going underground in the city centre as Metro North. But because it is totally segregated from all other traffic, there is plenty of scope for expansion as demand dictates. The system is being built for the future - not just now.

Metro North will be ready to begin construction this time next year - that is why it will go ahead if the final PPP tender is deemed affordable and acceptable by govt.

When will Dart Underground - which I agree is the most important single transport project for Dublin - be ready to proceed to construction?

Jack Noble

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

I did laugh at that line too.:rolleyes:

BrianD

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. Tell me you're taking the piss? Seriously.

Will I wouldn't put Myers down as a regular transport writer but has been quite vocal on the topic. McDonald is a correspondent on this topic and is well versed.

Point is that if both of these individuals are so "misguided" on the topic you'd think that the RPA would go out of their way to educate them on the myths and facts. Two people, that's all and many more could be on side if they did.

I would tend to agree that Myers is ranting and happens to have hit the nail on the head. I've a lot of time for McDonald and particular his investigative work in the past.

So, seriously, I'm not taking the piss!

BrianD

Jack Noble wrote: »

It is the govt's job to sell Metro North through the RPA. There is no need to do that yet until the final PPP bids are in and the price of the project is known. That will begin this summer/autumn when the cost details are known and the CBA updated. Only then will a decision be taken on whether the project proceeds or not. If it goes ahead, then expect the major PR offensive, not before. Plenty of information is available on RPA and T21 websites for anyone interested in understanding Metro and Luas projects.

Yes usual old "wel'll have to wait for this and that " excuses. When can we have the facts from the body tasked in doing this?

The idea that McDonald and Myers are essential to that is laughable. McDonald has taken a dogmatic stance on the project since the start and cannot be persuaded - it would be like trying to persuade Ruairi Ó Bradaigh to accept the Good Friday Agreement. Myers is an eccentric loon who will never be taken seriously by anyone other than eccentric loons.

In my view mcDonald is right and Myers is a loon who happens to have got it right.

The RPA has delivered Red and Green Luas lines and two extensions with a third under construction, while also bringing Metro North to RO stage and Metro West and Luas BXD to RO application stage before ABP. All were delivered on time and on budget.

I don't agree with that and I don't believe the facts support this either. Leaving money aside, their delivery off the Red and Green lines was a fiasco.

I agree that the Integrated Ticketing project is a fiasco but much of that is down to govt failure to knock heads together at RPA, Dub Bus and IE to ensure the project is delivered. Govt policy and lack of direction is as much to blame as petty game-playing by various state agencies. But we should see IT later this year. Better late than never, I say.

Of course it was and they seemed to be in no rush to implement it. We've still got to wait till 2017?

Metro North will not be a white elephant. What evidence have you to support that frankly daft statement? It will serve more major trip generators than any other line in the city. And given the success of the two Luas lines, it will be even more successful and popular as Luas given that it serves areas hitherto unserved by rapid rail.

I would have though it was glaringly obvious why it's a white elephant. It will cost too much and will never achieve the passenger numbers that it is capable of doing. There are cheaper and better value alternatives.

Two generations of transport planners have recommended a rapid rail system to serve North Dublin city and the northern suburbs (1975 and 2001), yet random geniuses on the internet seem to know better. Guess what? You don't and the last 10 years have proved that.

Unfortunately, 2 generations of politicians with their short term thinking combined with corruption have made this recommendation impractical. Look at a map and look at the densities. I'm sure you're familiar with the route and even you must scratch your head and say how on earth will this ever justify itself.

On street Luas was a mistake and a very expensive one at that. It simply does not have the capacity to serve demand-led growth. Both lines are now at peak capacity and there is no scope for expansion.

I thought that they were delivered under budget? At capacity? Definitely not. Busy at rush hour, quiet otherwise on the Green line at least. Expansion? There is little scope for any serious expansion along the original lines. Any future capacity issues are going to come from the RPA's, frankly stupid policy, of allowing the lines to lengthened to suit property developers who pay levies.

There is also no room for surface Luas lines in north Dublin city - that is why the Ballymun Luas line was abandoned in 1999/2000. And that is why Luas is going underground in the city centre as Metro North. But because it is totally segregated from all other traffic, there is plenty of scope for expansion as demand dictates. The system is being built for the future - not just now.

I beg to differ. Plenty of opportunity. For example, old Broadstone alignment can be used with on street. In any case, irrespective of MN there are still plans to introduce more tram lines into the city centre.

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

Metro North will be ready to begin construction this time next year - that is why it will go ahead if the final PPP tender is deemed affordable and acceptable by govt.

When will Dart Underground - which I agree is the most important single transport project for Dublin - be ready to proceed to construction?

I presume DU will go ahead when they get the dosh. Pretty similar situation to MN.

Jack Noble

BrianD wrote: »

Yes usual old "wel'll have to wait for this and that " excuses. When can we have the facts from the body tasked in doing this?

It is a competitive PPP tender - when the process is in we will know the figures. That has always been the case since the day the project was launched. If the project is affordable it will proceed, if not it won't. Why will people not accept the concept of a competitive tender process?

In my view mcDonald is right and Myers is a loon who happens to have got it right.

McDonald is wrong on practically every count re Metro. He has never been able to back up his assertions with hard facts. He is a fanatic and his dogmatic views have clouded Irish Times coverage of Metro. Myers ranting in Indo is embarrassing it is so inaccurate. The only fact he had in four columns was the name of the project.

I don't agree with that and I don't believe the facts support this either. Leaving money aside, their delivery off the Red and Green lines was a fiasco.

The facts do support it. Delays and cost runs to the original Luas lines were down to govt dithering and changing aspects of the project - not the RPA. It did it's job. How exactly where their delivery of the lines a fiasco?

Of course it was and they seemed to be in no rush to implement it. We've still got to wait till 2017?

Again govt (DoT) ballsed up IT. CIE as much responsible as RPA.

I would have though it was glaringly obvious why it's a white elephant. It will cost too much and will never achieve the passenger numbers that it is capable of doing. There are cheaper and better value alternatives.

Of course it will meet passenger demand. The same was said about Dart and Luas before they were built. The naysayers were proved spectacularly wrong on all accounts. And still they never learn.

Unfortunately, 2 generations of politicians with their short term thinking combined with corruption have made this recommendation impractical. Look at a map and look at the densities. I'm sure you're familiar with the route and even you must scratch your head and say how on earth will this ever justify itself.

Metro North travels through areas with higher densities than either the existing Dart line, the ttwo Luas lines and the proposed Dart lines. FGS, half of Dart's current catchment area is Dublin Bay. Again, Metro naysayers ignore that.

I thought that they were delivered under budget? At capacity? Definitely not. Busy at rush hour, quiet otherwise on the Green line at least. Expansion? There is little scope for any serious expansion along the original lines. Any future capacity issues are going to come from the RPA's, frankly stupid policy, of allowing the lines to lengthened to suit property developers who pay levies.

Luas is at peak capacity on both lines. That is when capacity is required. The whole point of these systems is to move people around when they need to be moved around - morning and evening rush hours. Luas is at capacity during those times. That is why there is no room for growth.

I beg to differ. Plenty of opportunity. For example, old Broadstone alignment can be used with on street. In any case, irrespective of MN there are still plans to introduce more tram lines into the city centre.

So the idea is find somewhere we can put a surface line rather than serve areas that need high capacity rapid transit? That approach makes no economic or transport sense. A crayon and a map do not make for good planning.

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

I would expect to see it within 10 to 20 years once the economy is back on track. So do the planners.
[
QUOTE]
I presume DU will go ahead when they get the dosh. Pretty similar situation to MN.[/QUOTE]

DU is being delivered the exact same way as Metro North - PPP. And the process will involve the same confidentiality as the Metro PPP - unless the next govt decides to fund it direct from the exchequer coffers. Anyway, it will be up to the next govt to decide whether to bring DU back inside the 2011-2014 funding envelope once DU gets a railway order from ABP sometime in mid to late 2012.

DWCommuter

How exactly where their delivery of the lines a fiasco?

I'll give you one example Jack. When they assumed control of the luas project, they must have known that 30 metre units on the red line was a bad joke. While they eventually ordered the extensions, they blatantly and stubbornly insisted that 30 metre units were fine. They did this in the print media and on radio.

Mr. Ger Hannon of the RPA called any suggestion that 40 metre units were needed on the red line, "nonsense". When the units were lengthened he still insisted that he was right at the time. Now thats a fiasco. Thankfully we don't here much from him these days.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

I'll give you one example Jack. When they assumed control of the luas project, they must have known that 30 metre units on the red line was a bad joke. While they eventually ordered the extensions, they blatantly and stubbornly insisted that 30 metre units were fine. They did this in the print media and on radio.

Mr. Ger Hannon of the RPA called any suggestion that 40 metre units were needed on the red line, "nonsense". When the units were lengthened he still insisted that he was right at the time. Now thats a fiasco. Thankfully we don't here much from him these days.

DWC

Fair point. I remember that at the time - RPA claimed too many twists and road junctions on Red Line for longer trams and that usage would be lower than on the Green Line. They were proved wrong on both counts and changed tack - although the handling of it was appalling. It shows that they were too conservative in their passenger predictions for Luas - something some people claim RPA are still doing with growth and usage predictions for Metro North (Fingal and Dub City councils, for example).

From what I can see the lessons have been learned from the initial Luas projects and RPA does things a lot differently now. One of the reasons there is so much growth and expansion potential in the two Metro projects is that the lessons of Luas capacity constraint have been understood and taken on board by RPA.

To be fair to RPA - which people are - there were many problems with the initial Luas lines, most of which where not of there making, some of which were - but the projects were still delivered on time and within budget. Operations have been pretty smooth since, despite the odd clitch, the lines are profitable and the extensions have also come in on time and within budget.

The RPA has grown into the role over the last decade and is proving itself to be an efficient and effective organisation - unlike Irish Rail which is only now beginning to get things rights but is still moving at torturously slow pace.

IR has one major project to deliver in Dublin while RPA has half a dozen of varying scales - which in your opinion is doing the better job?

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

IR has one major project to deliver in Dublin while RPA has half a dozen of varying scales - which in your opinion is doing the better job?

As much as I don't need to restate my criticism of Irish Rail, I think it's a little unfair to be drawing parallels between them and the RPA. It was this mindset that created the RPA in the first place and ultimately pushed us in the direction of the disjointed mess we have. Creating the RPA did not solve the problem. It exasperated it. The creation of the NTA even added to the problem. Nobody seems to know who's responsible for anything.

Lets be realistic. The RPA have one major project. The others are no hopers who's various stages of planning, design etc. keep the RPA in jobs. That one major project, MN, is a Government pet project. DU isn't and never was. In 2003, while the Government were creating the RPA and salivating over a Dublin Metro, DU or the interconnector as it was known then wasn't on the Government radar even though they were accutely aware of it.

The problem ultimately boils down to a situation where the development of Dublins public transport projects has now turned into a competitive game. In that scenario to say that IR or the RPA are better than the other is distasteful and symptomatic of the underlying problem in the city.

Jack Noble

DWCommuter wrote: »

As much as I don't need to restate my criticism of Irish Rail, I think it's a little unfair to be drawing parallels between them and the RPA. It was this mindset that created the RPA in the first place and ultimately pushed us in the direction of the disjointed mess we have. Creating the RPA did not solve the problem. It exasperated it. The creation of the NTA even added to the problem. Nobody seems to know who's responsible for anything.

Lets be realistic. The RPA have one major project. The others are no hopers who's various stages of planning, design etc. keep the RPA in jobs. That one major project, MN, is a Government pet project. DU isn't and never was. In 2003, while the Government were creating the RPA and salivating over a Dublin Metro, DU or the interconnector as it was known then wasn't on the Government radar even though they were accutely aware of it.

The problem ultimately boils down to a situation where the development of Dublins public transport projects has now turned into a competitive game. In that scenario to say that IR or the RPA are better than the other is distasteful and symptomatic of the underlying problem in the city.

DWC

Can't disagree with much of that but this is all a massive failure of government - or more accurately, Bertie Ahern's style of government where everything was farmed out to a quango or kicked to the long grass, vested interests were indulged instead of taken on, and every sector or interest group was bought off with a little here, a little there.

We are all paying a very high price for this now and Dublin transport is only a small fraction of that.

I would disagree with you that all other RPA projects are 'no hopers'. They will get ROs and I would expect as things improve economically, that they will be built but probably in the 2015-2025/30 timeframe with DU built 2014/15 to 2020/21. But everything hangs on Metro North going ahead.

On DU, it really is up to IR and other backers to convince the new govt of the absolute necessity of the project. If Metro North goes ahead, I believe it will strengthen the case for DU rather than weaken it. If Metro is axed later this year by the new govt, then I believe it will also sound the death knell for DU and every other project.

Ultimately, CIE/IR are the authors of their own misfortune here because they dumped Dart in favour of LRT, then lost Luas to the RPA because of their internal problems, then brought Dart back on the agenda, got it approved by govt and then went back to design from scratch again, delaying it even further and giving a future govt the opportunity to kill it off if it so desires.

With hindsight - useless as it is - CIE/IR would have been much better resurrecting Dart in the mid-1990s with north-south and east-west lines underground through the city along the corridors now planned for MetroN/LuasGreen and Dart Underground. Dart would have been easier to sell to the public and politicians during the boom years as they would simply have seen it as an extension of what we have rather than a massive new project with a name (Metro) that conjours delusions of granduer in some minds.

But, like in the 1980s, another opportunity was lost due a combination of dogmatism, dithering, cute-hoorism and a lack of ambition and vision. I just hope it won't be lost again due to more short-sighted political decisions and mickey-swinging by various politicians, civil servants and RPA/CIE officials.

DWCommuter

Jack Noble wrote: »

But, like in the 1980s, another opportunity was lost due a combination of dogmatism, dithering, cute-hoorism and a lack of ambition and vision. I just hope it won't be lost again due to more short-sighted political decisions and mickey-swinging by various politicians, civil servants and RPA/CIE officials.

Unfortunately I draw the wrath of people because I hold the belief that the opportunity will be lost. The reason? I have seen absolutely no change in the political attitude, the dealings with CIE or the creation of quangos. Despite the wealth very little was achieved. Railway orders and planning and design are easy when you have the money to throw at them. They create an illusion that we couldn't afford to create in the 80s. However delivering the projects looks increasingly beyond the ability of the Irish political brain. The planned DTA has turned into the farce that is now the NTA. Its all fudging and theres a lot more ahead. A lot of what we did get was driven by developers and their hosing estates and office blocks. Luas extensions and Clonsilla - Pace are prime examples.

I hope I'm wrong and if the TBMs go into the ground for MN, I'd be the first to stand up and admit I was wrong even though personally I wanted to see DU done first or even in tandem and would retain the fear that MN would exhaust any semblance of political will and render it an incomplete system. For generations this country has been wronged in terms of public transport. We now stand at the precipice of another potential disaster. Another chapter in the horror story of Dublin transport.

FreudianSlippers

I'm sorry, but I thought MN construction was beginning April this year? Or is that preliminary groundworks?

donvito99

BrianD wrote: »

As far for the future? They say a railway line will change the area along it for 100 hundred years. Looks like we'll have to wait 100 years to see the type of numbers the RPA are stating they can carry on MN.

I wouldn't mind.

MN should be viewed upon completion, after we're through the preliminary stages of this mess. I'd like to know the population of Dublin in not even 100 years, more like 25. By then we'll be back on our feet, and demand for a route like this will be substantial.

Wild Bill

Mr McDonald is an ideologue, as is Myers.

The former a Greenie elitist and the latter an anti-Irish troll.

McDonald is a religious fundamentalist in his opposition to rail underground or roads overground; is a nitwit who can eulogise Barcelona centre vis a vis Dublin without once mentioning it's vast network of motorways that make the centre possible...etcetera etcetera. (I could write a book on his flawed analogies).

Myers is a twit who have mined a seam of Unionist/Blueshirt populism way past the point of exhaustion.

Neither is an advocate of building any worthwhile physical infrastructure in this country.

Cool Mo D

Some of you might be interested in this, just released by Irish Rail: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

DWCommuter

Wild Bill wrote: »

Mr McDonald is an ideologue, as is Myers.

The former a Greenie elitist and the latter an anti-Irish troll.

McDonald is a religious fundamentalist in his opposition to rail underground or roads overground; is a nitwit who can eulogise Barcelona centre vis a vis Dublin without once mentioning it's vast network of motorways that make the centre possible...etcetera etcetera. (I could write a book on his flawed analogies).

Myers is a twit who have mined a seam of Unionist/Blueshirt populism way past the point of exhaustion.

Neither is an advocate of building any worthwhile physical infrastructure in this country.

With respect Wild Bill, I appreciate your opinion, but why don't you offer some definitive opinion on matters? Merely expressing an opinion on two particular commentators is hardly constructive in the absence of your own views on the matters at hand. Personally I'd love to hear what you have to say that is contrary to Myers and McDonald.

FreudianSlippers

donvito99 wrote: »

I wouldn't mind.

MN should be viewed upon completion, after we're through the preliminary stages of this mess. I'd like to know the population of Dublin in not even 100 years, more like 25. By then we'll be back on our feet, and demand for a route like this will be substantial.

To expand on this, I think it's silly to not build this type of infrastructure now - it's creating jobs that we need and building the infrastructure we will need in the near to long-term future when we are recovered.

Wild Bill

DWCommuter wrote: »

With respect Wild Bill, I appreciate your opinion, but why don't you offer some definitive opinion on matters? Merely expressing an opinion on two particular commentators is hardly constructive in the absence of your own views on the matters at hand. Personally I'd love to hear what you have to say that is contrary to Myers and McDonald.

Well, I've given my views way earlier - but I suppose that's lost in the background by now.

I think DU is the single most important public transport project in Ireland. It joins up all the existing and proposed lines; greatly expands the Dart; eliminates the Loop line bottleneck and would give Dublin the same quality of transport infrastructure as most other European capitals already have ahs, in many cases for a very long time.

What else can I say? (Other than that the objections I've heard so far are a load of b****x). Which would be unconstructive! (albeit accurate).

Chris_5339762

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Some of you might be interested in this, just released by Irish Rail: http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

I'm not familiar enough with the area, but does this fix the gulley?

Jehuty42

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

I'm not familiar enough with the area, but does this fix the gulley?

It appears to be about fixing the "gap" between the end of the current 4-tracking and the eventual DU tunnel portal at Inchicore that Sponge_Bob has talked about before.

Sponge Bob

It bypasses the gulley, the KRP2 project is what I called the "Missing Link" for a long time around here.

It was to my mind completely pointless building the tunnel in its absence and KRP2 should be progressed along with the tunnel to completion at the same time .....it can start 2 or 3 years after the tunnel does and still finish at the same time. It will not be very costly as a necessary side project to the Tunnel...in fact it is probably the cheapest of the myriad side projects.

All of my concerns are addressed fully in the Project Description I am glad to say.

Project Description
It is proposed to

* Install two new railway tracks in parallel to existing tracks between Cherry Orchard and Inchicore
* Electrify the route from Inchicore to Hazelhatch in order to deliver DART services. The route distance is approximately 15 kilometres
* Upgrade two bridges at Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road
* Provide a new junction at Inchicore to separate DART services from Intercity and regional services bound for Heuston

This project is a key component in the Greater Dublin Integrated Rail Network. Its delivery is a prerequisite to the full utilisation of the proposed DART Underground commencing at Inchicore.

Thank God for that. But it must be fully funded either upfront along with or within the same PPP as the tunnel project. Possibly as 'enabling' works.

Telchak

Would it not be wise to electrify Inchicore to Heuston as well? At least if the tunnel ever had to be closed for a short period (these things happen) then DARTs could be sent there instead of only being able to go as far as Inchicore

KC61

Sponge Bob wrote: »

It bypasses the gulley, the KRP2 project is what I called the "Missing Link" for a long time around here.

It was to my mind completely pointless building the tunnel in its absence and KRP2 should be progressed along with the tunnel to completion at the same time .....it can start 2 or 3 years after the tunnel does and still finish at the same time. It will not be very costly as a necessary side project to the Tunnel...in fact it is probably the cheapest of the myriad side projects.

All of my concerns are addressed fully in the Project Description I am glad to say.



Thank God for that. But it must be fully funded either upfront along with or within the same PPP as the tunnel project. Possibly as 'enabling' works.

Amazing that isn't it - a rather "Paul like" conversion on the road to Damascus on your part.

I find it incredible that you actually thought that no planning had gone in to this and pretty much rubbished my suggestion that this was actually going to be addressed, when I suggested it here and in several subsequent posts seven months ago.

My own comments were based on an informal off-the-record discussion at one of the open evenings that they held, a course of action that I suggested to you, but you did seem rather dismissive of that....

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is better to take a more softly-softly approach than running around like the proverbial bull in a china shop. Often times you can learn far more that way.

Sponge Bob

Softly softly gettee trainee ...is that what I am supposed to have learnt :nin ???

Do you have the slightest idea of how utterly ludicrous a public hearing on the tunnel would be absent hearing the KRP2 case in parallel with that for the tunnel.

The sheer arrogance of IE who were fully prepared to go to hearings this year with no public case published for KRP2 is breathtaking.

Evidently they did not want issues around land take in Ballyfermot/Cherry Orchard to arise at the Tunnel hearings. So they suppressed KRP2 for years.

In fact ALL the publicity material on the KRP2 project carefully avoids the land take issue even now but the residents of Landen Road and similar areas remain entitled, as always, to know exactly what IE plan to do with their back gardens and houses...if anything.

Remember this map ??

noelfirl

Oh give it a rest. Bad publicity or not you were harping on here adamant that they had somehow forgotten about the two tracks leading into nowhere at the end of that map, when it's quite clear that nothing of the sort had happened.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

All of my concerns are addressed fully in the Project Description I am glad to say.

Don't give yourself so much bloody credit, you're not the Emir of infrastructure planning.

Sponge Bob

Looks like I stirred up a right hornets nest in IE when All I Was doing (Honest) was Being Nice to them. Hopefully Wild Bill will ride in presently to rescue me