DART+ (DART Expansion)

Jack Noble

BluntGuy wrote: »

It wasn't going to start in 2012 anyway, so hardly a surprise.

MN will be next, because it'll be politically unacceptable and highly impractical to dig up the green twice.

The Green is not being dug up twice. The RPA is building the Dart Underground station box as part of Metro North. It will then be reimbursed for that from the DU funding. This is mentioned in the Metro North Business Case on the RPA and NTA websites.

Irish Rail are now quoting a completion date of 2019 for Dart Underground. Mentioned in IE documents before the ABP Oral Hearing this week so that suggest a delay as outlined in the Four-Year Plan.

And don't forget ABP took two years to deal with Metro Railway Order so don't be surprised if the DartU RO doesn't appear to mid-2012. Then you will have to deal with any changes ordered by ABP so I would not expect this to even be ready to start until late-2013/early-2014. Up to next govt to fund it.

BluntGuy

Jack Noble wrote: »

The Green is not being dug up twice. The RPA is building the Dart Underground station box as part of Metro North. It will then be reimbursed for that from the DU funding. This is mentioned in the Metro North Business Case on the RPA and NTA websites.

As far as I'm aware from the EIS, one of the ventilation shafts is being built by Dart Underground, and the station itself will have to be mined out, this will involve at least part of the green. I'm open to correction, but as far as I'm aware one of the key reasons the projects were designed to go ahead as closely as possible was to avoid prolonged disruption at the green. If prolonged disruption wasn't an issue, it would not have been so often cited as a reason.

Irish Rail are now quoting a completion date of 2019 for Dart Underground. Mentioned in IE documents before the ABP Oral Hearing this week so that suggest a delay as outlined in the Four-Year Plan.

2019 is rubbish. Doesn't matter when they get the railway order. It matters when the PPP procurement process begins (again), and that doesn't seem likely to be on this side of 2014. So even if it begins in 2014, the earliest they could close a contract and have the detailed design done would be some time in 2015. That would mean construction beginning in 2016, to be complete 2022 (going by their 6-year construction timeframe). And that's if the government have any interest.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dart Underground joined the ever-mounting scrapheap with the rest of CIE's ill-fated plans.

DWCommuter

BluntGuy wrote: »

As far as I'm aware from the EIS, one of the ventilation shafts is being built by Dart Underground, and the station itself will have to be mined out, this will involve at least part of the green. I'm open to correction, but as far as I'm aware one of the key reasons the projects were designed to go ahead as closely as possible was to avoid prolonged disruption at the green. If prolonged disruption wasn't an issue, it would not have been so often cited as a reason.



2019 is rubbish. Doesn't matter when they get the railway order. It matters when the PPP procurement process begins (again), and that doesn't seem likely to be on this side of 2014. So even if it begins in 2014, the earliest they could close a contract and have the detailed design done would be some time in 2015. That would mean construction beginning in 2016, to be complete 2022 (going by their 6-year construction timeframe). And that's if the government have any interest.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dart Underground joined the ever-mounting scrapheap with the rest of CIE's ill-fated plans.

Perfect summary.

But the real question is why are this out going, desperate Government that is FF lead, so keen to keep stressing that MN is going ahead?

Answer: It was all lead by development over 10 years ago. MN was never about providing public transport solutions for Dublin. It was always about developer buddies and right to the bitter end Fianna Fail will cling to this project to look like they did their best for their cronies. Its so ingrained in their mindset that they can't let go. A nice little project all the same but far too long and drawn out to be convincing in the world of honest public transport planning.

Judgement Day

Hopefully the cancellation of these grandeoise 'Pale Rail' projects will allow the savings thus made to be diverted to four tracking the WRC and the reconstruction of the Athenry/Collooney line.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

Hopefully the cancellation of these grandeoise 'Pale Rail' projects will allow the savings thus made to be diverted to four tracking the WRC and the reconstruction of the Athenry/Collooney line.

Troll of the year JD. Woo Hoo!

Alas the savings will just keep the country nearly afloat. What a fcuking mess we are in now. Time for some quick doses of reality (my word for the day).:D

Wild Bill

I assume I'm not the first to express disbelief that MN is going ahead and DART underground is axed? Bizarre decision.



And yeah; I reckon Athenry/Collooney is more important than either. Natch.

Godge

Wild Bill wrote: »

I assume I'm not the first to express disbelief that MN is going ahead and DART underground is axed? Bizarre decision.



And yeah; I reckon Athenry/Collooney is more important than either. Natch.

+1 Absolutely amazed. So Metro North won't connect anywhere with DART (Drumcondra is not DART). Unbelieveable. DU is so more important than MN.

There are several alternatives to MN in the short term, be it a spur from Malahide or a spur from Broombridge while DU joins all the dots.

bg07

Wild Bill wrote: »

I assume I'm not the first to express disbelief that MN is going ahead and DART underground is axed? Bizarre decision.



And yeah; I reckon Athenry/Collooney is more important than either. Natch.

I wouldn't worry about metro north going ahead before DU. Metro North has to make it through the following:-

• A change of Government
• Budget 2012 and the other emergency and annual budgets until construction would start
• Approval of the final business case for the project by the Government
• The financial backers of the winning PPP bid has to be able to come with the money
• A final go ahead from the ECB and the IMF seen as it will ultimately be paid for with loans from them

I don’t believe there is a snowball chance in hell in all these things going Metro North's way within the next 10 years. Its effectively on the scrapheap with DU for the foreseeable future, it just hasn’t been officially announced yet.

monument

Metro's next hurdle to jump over this budget. If Metro North's enabling works are included in the budget it's not a matter of Metro North is approved but if the budget is -- you pass all or nothing in a budget.

If enabling works are started, it's less and less likely that the project will be binned.

On PPPs -- the process with Metro is more advanced and has been dragged along for longer, if Metro is binned it'll likely do a fair bit of damage to the PPP process -- ie possibly messing up any chance of Dart Underground getting off the ground in the next 20 years even a further distanced memory, and messing up PPPs in general.

Wild Bill wrote: »

I assume I'm not the first to express disbelief that MN is going ahead and DART underground is axed? Bizarre decision.

It's not that bizarre.

In the recent poll here voting for only Dart Underground or Metro, I voted Dart. It is a more important project. But there's now a number of reasons Metro would go first.

Dart is still at planning and still hasn't got any kind of approval, while only a small section of Metro has to go back to planning (the depot) -- and studies have already been done on the new depot area for Metro West which will help speed it up. Dart PPP is also less advanced and so delaying it is easer than delaying Metro which is already delayed. Also, the required rolling stock for DU is outside of the PPP making it harder to fund in the shorter term than Metro.

Given Dart Underground is such a good idea, hopefully, is only postponed.

Godge wrote: »

So Metro North won't connect anywhere with DART (Drumcondra is not DART). Unbelieveable. DU is so more important than MN.

By no means as valuable as if / when Dart Underground is in place, but... Metro North at O'Connell Bridge is less 400m from Dart and Commuter services at Tara Street Station. Drumcondra has Commuter services, it may not mean a lot for you but it does for a lot of people. It connects to and -- for the foreseeable future -- connects the two Luas lines. That's not to mention all the bus stops between O'Connell Bridge and College Green.

DWCommuter wrote: »

Perfect summary.

But the real question is why are this out going, desperate Government that is FF lead, so keen to keep stressing that MN is going ahead?

Answer: It was all lead by development over 10 years ago. MN was never about providing public transport solutions for Dublin. It was always about developer buddies and right to the bitter end Fianna Fail will cling to this project to look like they did their best for their cronies. Its so ingrained in their mindset that they can't let go. A nice little project all the same but far too long and drawn out to be convincing in the world of honest public transport planning.

Real answer, two words: The Greens.

It's not a mystery, the Greens have been pushing -- realistically or not -- for Metro North. Really, this should not come as a shock. It was all over the place that they were pushing to retain it, while FFers were giving briefings to journalists that it would be scraped.

thomasj

Colm McCarthy was on prime time on rte tonight. When asked on his toughts on the budget the first thing he criticised was the metro saying it would not work even as ppp

etchyed

thomasj wrote: »

Colm McCarthy was on prime time on rte tonight. When asked on his toughts on the budget the first thing he criticised was the metro saying it would not work even as ppp

While under the changed circumstances I don't think Metro North should go ahead, Colm McCarthy really irritates me when he goes into his tirades against it. His stance against the metro doesn't seem to be based on any kind of economic thinking, but rather a "sure what would we need that for" attitude. I suspect if the economy was booming he'd still be against it.

dRNk SAnTA

etchyed wrote: »

While under the changed circumstances I don't think Metro North should go ahead, Colm McCarthy really irritates me when he goes into his tirades against it. His stance against the metro doesn't seem to be based on any kind of economic thinking, but rather a "sure what would we need that for" attitude. I suspect if the economy was booming he'd still be against it.

Economists hate trains. He said something to the effect of "haven't we just already built a tunnel to the airport".

dRNk SAnTA

To be honest, if Metro North does get built first (yeah big if), it will be because it was first to get planning permission and it has a much higher public profile.

I was listening to Matt Cooper the other night and when Ciaran Cuffe mentioned DART Underground, Matt Cooper sounded like he'd never heard of it before. Not only that, but he sounded incredulous at the idea of "another" rail tunnel.

The RPA have just done a better PR job I think.

loyatemu

it won't get built - while it may be PPP, we still have to pay the money back eventually and as we're going to owe ~€200bn by the end of the whole bailout process, there's no way the incoming FG/Lab govt will proceed with it, or any other major infrastructure projects.

Godge

monument wrote: »

/
By no means as valuable as if / when Dart Underground is in place, but... Metro North at O'Connell Bridge is less 400m from Dart and Commuter services at Tara Street Station. Drumcondra has Commuter services, it may not mean a lot for you but it does for a lot of people. It connects to and -- for the foreseeable future -- connects the two Luas lines. That's not to mention all the bus stops between O'Connell Bridge and College Green.




.

Eh, look at my location - Dublin 15. Will suit me to change at Drumcondra.

My view that DU is more important is based on my wider views of what is right.

Transportuser09

From Labour's point of view surely scrapping the project is a bad idea. Sure it will have to be paid back eventually, but in the mean time it would create jobs at no immediate cost to the taxpayer. Despite this I agree it's probably unlikely FG will continue with it though.

BluntGuy

Their press release strikes me as rubbish:

It will now not be possible to deliver the tunnel element of the programme in the immediate period. However, some of the re-signalling and associated works, which have capacity benefits in and of themselves, will proceed over the next four years and this will prepare the network for the delivery of the underground tunnel once financial resources permit.

The tunnel element of "the programme" is the only part of the programme that has been significantly progressed. Nothing has been done on KRP2 or electrification. The vital link between the KRP1 and Dart Underground isn't even provided for in the railway order application.

I personally think the government have known for a while that this wasn't going to happen, that there was no way they could raise finance for two big PPPs, if even one. The only reason MN has even half a chance is the ECB funding. With Dart Underground gone, I suspect it'll bring down Metro North with it.

A tranche of enabling works and then a complete halt is what I have predicted multiple times. It's looking more likely that is going to happen.

dynamick

what is krp2?

DWCommuter

You probably all know who I am. (If not then I'm glad:D)

In 2004 Platform 11 (now RUI, thanks to me;)) put the Interconnector/DART Underground on the media map via leaflet drops on trains/outside stations and press releases. Up until then it was a random item discussed on late night radio shows, supported by random newspaper articles. RTE had decided that Metro was sexier, despite DU being a project, at the time, that was far more beneficial because it actually fixed the existing network and opened up a myriad of commuting options that are not currently available. My own thinking at the time was that this project was being ignored by Government.

In 2003 I was inadvertently accosted to an Oireacthas transport committee meeting in Dail Eireann because they thought our proposal for the Phoenix Park Tunnel was a swift route out of building the interconnector. It wasn't and never was. It was a stand alone project to get rail capacity released in the short term. That still stands. But getting back to DU. IE were very alarmed by the P11 position re the PPT and warmed us up to the idea behind the interconnector. After examining the plan, it was impressive and P11 promoted it relentlessly to the media. Much coverage was given in the media and I'm quite at ease in saying that I, personally featured in that coverage as the P11 spokesperson. I had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that DU was far more important a project than MN. This was all circa 2004. Then the RPA started to get friendly with P11 and invited us to one on one consultations re Metro North because our PPT proposal clearly stated how MN should make a direct connection with the proposed DART line to Maynooth as per the O'Reilly Report. (believe it or not, the RPA wanted to route MN via the old Smurfit site in Phisboro/Glasnevin, and make no connection with the Maynooth line :eek:)

Why am I saying all this? Well its really to provide background and justify how utterly disgusted I am (but not surprised) by the recent announcement that MN will go ahead while DU is deferred. DU has always been the poor relation to MN. The Government cared and knew little about it. I believe it was only included in T21 because of an unrelenting internet campaign by P11, backed up by frequent media coverage. IE openly courted our support and I did many "love in" interviews with Barry Kenny throughout late 2004 and early 2005 re the project.

However, I never really believed that our Government were committed to it. MN was the "vanity" project. Even when we had money, they stumbled over themselves when discussing DU.

And now we find ourselves in 2010 (when it should be under construction) realising its deferral. Nothing new there. But with all this said, MN won't be built either. The ultimate point about DU and MN is the very simple fact that the FF lead Governments since 1997, never had any real intention of building any of this because the years of massive wealth didn't even afford us a start on these projects.

Irish politicians just don't do public transport. (unless its a cheap and meaningless bus.)

Amtmann

DWCommuter wrote: »

Irish politicians just don't do public transport. (unless its a cheap and meaningless bus.)

Great post. I wonder if you could share your thoughts on the above sentence a little more. I agree with it by the way, and I have my own suspicions as to why it is the case, but I'd like to read your views on it.

GizAGoOfYerGee

What's Fine Gael's position on these two projects?

dynamick

Neither project even gets a mention in Fine Gael's impossibly optimistic New Era capital investment plan:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf

FG have two transport policies on their web site: bus service privatisation and 100% electric cars by 2030 . Labour on the other hand does have reasonable public transport policies but the interests of the unions that represent workers in the public transport companies will always come first for them. In practice how can labour ever spend on capital projects rather than welfare and public pay?

Sponge Bob

It is not a priority in Longford but once their genius plan to fill their Ghost Estates "overnight" results in severe congestion as the new inhabitants try to escape the place they will finally come around to the inevitablity of it

With a political gene pool of this profundity what do you expect of them, eh ???

http://www.longfordleader.ie/news/Expats-could-fill-ghost-estates.6636555.jp

ClovenHoof

murphaph wrote: »

New propoganda here but it really whets the appetite.....who knows if we'll have the nerve to do it though....

Part of me wonders if this is because something messy has been uncorvered within Irish Rail and the Government do not want to be seen funding this project if this breaks?

It really isn't that expensive in the whole scheme of thing - so there has to be another reason? Could privatisation of Irish Rail be on the cards? They need to get that sorted first rather than Deco and Anto bringing the network to a standstill after investing in such a large piece of kits?

You do have to wonder alright if something behind the scenes is happening.

ClovenHoof

GizAGoOfYerGee wrote: »

What's Fine Gael's position on these two projects?

My guess would no public transport of any kind.

Zebra3

So can the PPT be opened up for the immeadiate future to allow commuters trains coming into Heuston to continue on to Docklands?

rumour

DWCommuter wrote: »

You probably all know who I am. (If not then I'm glad:D)

In 2004 Platform 11 (now RUI, thanks to me;)) put the Interconnector/DART Underground on the media map via leaflet drops on trains/outside stations and press releases. Up until then it was a random item discussed on late night radio shows, supported by random newspaper articles. RTE had decided that Metro was sexier, despite DU being a project, at the time, that was far more beneficial because it actually fixed the existing network and opened up a myriad of commuting options that are not currently available. My own thinking at the time was that this project was being ignored by Government.

In 2003 I was inadvertently accosted to an Oireacthas transport committee meeting in Dail Eireann because they thought our proposal for the Phoenix Park Tunnel was a swift route out of building the interconnector. It wasn't and never was. It was a stand alone project to get rail capacity released in the short term. That still stands. But getting back to DU. IE were very alarmed by the P11 position re the PPT and warmed us up to the idea behind the interconnector. After examining the plan, it was impressive and P11 promoted it relentlessly to the media. Much coverage was given in the media and I'm quite at ease in saying that I, personally featured in that coverage as the P11 spokesperson. I had absolutely no doubt whatsoever that DU was far more important a project than MN. This was all circa 2004. Then the RPA started to get friendly with P11 and invited us to one on one consultations re Metro North because our PPT proposal clearly stated how MN should make a direct connection with the proposed DART line to Maynooth as per the O'Reilly Report. (believe it or not, the RPA wanted to route MN via the old Smurfit site in Phisboro/Glasnevin, and make no connection with the Maynooth line :eek:)

Why am I saying all this? Well its really to provide background and justify how utterly disgusted I am (but not surprised) by the recent announcement that MN will go ahead while DU is deferred. DU has always been the poor relation to MN. The Government cared and knew little about it. I believe it was only included in T21 because of an unrelenting internet campaign by P11, backed up by frequent media coverage. IE openly courted our support and I did many "love in" interviews with Barry Kenny throughout late 2004 and early 2005 re the project.

However, I never really believed that our Government were committed to it. MN was the "vanity" project. Even when we had money, they stumbled over themselves when discussing DU.

And now we find ourselves in 2010 (when it should be under construction) realising its deferral. Nothing new there. But with all this said, MN won't be built either. The ultimate point about DU and MN is the very simple fact that the FF lead Governments since 1997, never had any real intention of building any of this because the years of massive wealth didn't even afford us a start on these projects.

Irish politicians just don't do public transport. (unless its a cheap and meaningless bus.)

I don't think it should be seen as scrapped. In the midst of our current difficulties the business case presented for DU is nothing short of poppy cock. With our IMF friends in town it doesn't stand up. That does not mean it is not required. The case for it is presented badly.
Look at the business cases in the NTA website...DU and MN

The critical distinction in the way these are presented is that MN arguably is a stand alone project. Build it and it works. The case for DU is electrify all the suburban lines (no idea where money is coming from) achieve 70% growth in public transport by 2030 and then building the tunnel for 2.5bn is justifable, so lets build the tunnel now. Its a bit like putting the cart before the horse building DU now.

In our current difficulties we'll be lucky to even see metro north let alone the dart. Both of these are supposed to be funded using the PPP model. Lets say MN needs 3bn min and DU needs 2 min. What are the chances of getting 5bn from private companies right now.

As with everything here I think we'll have to do it one labourious step at a time. Build MN (whilst still ambitious it is a smaller project than DU), slowly but surely get people to realise the benefits and then get the support for a proper overhaul of our rail network. This is how the roads were fixed.

Reading your post I think you must be enormously disappointed by the recent news however don't give up essentially our rail network needs investment. If it provides any solace the famous bidge at Milau:


Was concieved by a local engineer who campaigned for over 20years before it was agreed to construct it. Civil Engineering is thankless.

mgmt

DWCommuter wrote: »

Irish politicians just don't do public transport. (unless its a cheap and meaningless bus.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNixDlRoMvA

Pete_Cavan

dynamick wrote: »

Neither project even gets a mention in Fine Gael's impossibly optimistic New Era capital investment plan:
http://www.finegael.ie/upload/NewERA2010.pdf

I like 90% of FG proposals there. Its a pity they didnt apply the same logic to our public transport agencies. Surely they could amalgamate NRA/RSA/National Transport Authority/Irish Rail/RPA/CIE/Bus Eirinn/Dublin Bus (plus any others I am forgeting) into no more than 3 agencies.

KevR

mgmt wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNixDlRoMvA

GoSafe Safety Cameras :pac: