DART+ (DART Expansion)

MJohnston

Why do you think East Wall has poor transport links? There are buses, 3 train stations, and the Red Line within short walking distance. In addition, the city centre and the Docklands are well within 30 minutes walk from East Wall.

I really don't see why East Wall needs more transport than that when there are parts of the city utterly unserved by anything other than buses.

Zebra3

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Please forgive me. I grew up in Western Europe. I understood that 'integration' meant that the bus stopped right outside.

I did not realise that there was a 5-minute walk involved.

It's probably a five minute walk from Platform 7 to the Luas at Connolly.

L1011

Open the commuter entrance and the Sheriff Street gates at the Vaults and Connolly is suddenly a lot closer to lots of places.

The carpark redevelopment will make it more open to the north and east also

CatInABox

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's probably a five minute walk from Platform 7 to the Luas at Connolly.

It's also a five minute brisk walk between lines at some London Underground stations.

There's a lot of problems with public transport in Dublin and Ireland in general, but picking this as a reason to close a station down is silly.

strassenwo!f

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's probably a five minute walk from Platform 7 to the Luas at Connolly.

It's got to be at least that. It's a very poor connection.

[QUOUTE=D.L.R]East Wall is a low density ghetto that should really be redeveloped.

Clontarf Rd station really isn't ideal, I mean its in the middle of a park ffs. They built it there because it was cheap and easy. Same old story.

Ossary Junction has the potential to be a useful interchange location. Or at least it would be if this wasn't Ireland, where railways seem to be some sort of alien technology we haven't quite figured out yet.[/QUOTE]

I think the problem with anywhere around Ossory Road is that the DU project would be starting, or would be in the middle of, its' climb (or descent) to/from the connection with the Northern Line at that point - at least if anything like the original plan is implemented.

Building a station on a gradient would not be ideal, and we already know that things are tight enough, as they stand, to get the tunnel up from some metres under the river into a horizontal station at Spencer Dock up to a level which is around 5 metres above the canal at the junction of the proposed lines.

Along with Zebra3 in the previous post I view the use of the word 'ghetto' in relation to East Wall with considerable distaste. But there is no doubt that parts of it will be redeveloped in the coming decades. I also don't think it is entirely impossible that the city might eventually decide to sell that small chunk of Fairview Park along the Tolka to raise a bit of cash.

marno21

MOD:

Lads can we put an end to the discussion about the affluency of the East Wall area. It's not really relevant to the expansion of DART.

marno21

D.L.R. wrote: »

Its fair comment discussing the profile of areas DU may possibly serve.

Some parts of Dublin are deprived, that's the reality of this city and most cities.

People talk about MN and how it can improve areas it serves. No different.

MOD:

We can talk about how it'll improve areas but can we discuss them that way rather than calling them "ghettos" or the like.

I have no issue with talking about how DU will improve areas, because there's no doubt it will, but there's a point as well where the conversation is no longer about DU and I didn't want it to go that far.

Sam Russell

Mod: Can we leave East Wall, not to mention North Strand.

All of it is within 1 km of Docklands Station so not much of an issue. Connolly Station is only 600 m, the East Link is less than 1 km, Croke Park is 1,25 km. There is plenty of brown field land around it to allow huge development of both housing and commercial use. It has a lot of old low density housing as well, but that does not limit the area.

I have deleted the offending posts as they add nothing to the discussion of expanding the Dart.

McAlban

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One of the concerns mentioned about the DART Underground project on its Wikipedia page is that it fails to provide fairly direct access to residents of the East Wall area, even though these are people living very near the proposed line, and will be among the most disrupted if its construction happens.

Citing Wikipedia, Which in turn cites an unavailable article from 2010 is not ideal. The "Opposition" section seems very anecdotal.

strassenwo!f wrote:

Nevertheless, East Wall is an area with plenty of people, and thus plenty of potential passengers.

True, But they can access Bus Services 53 and 151 and access North Strand Road, East Wall Road and East Road by foot. Due to the 150 year old Rail line to Alexandra Road they have always been cut off from The Seville Place area.

We don't know what the review of this project will bring, but in the event that the DART Underground project emerges at Spencer Dock, or somewhere close by, and then connects with the Northern Line north of Connolly,



The second step to make this 'bridge' plan even more effective would be to remove the Clontarf Road station, entirely. It doesn't have much integration with buses from around the area: Many buses stopping there? Any houses in the vicinity? (At present, there is the bus 32X (around 2 buses in each direction per day) and the 130 (a bus about every 10-15 minutes)).

Without any very immediate residential areas, or large numbers of buses passing by, Clontarf Road's main selling point - at the time of its construction -
was that it was halfway between Connolly and Killester, on the DART's original 6-minute gap between those two stations, and that it was close to the emerging East Point Business Park.

You wouldn't remove it immediately, of course, but it might, and maybe would, eventually go as part of the DART Underground plan.

The Clontarf Road station was also created because it was able to be be created easily. Not because it was the best place, or because it had the best integration with other public transport. It is currently a key point for company buses linking it with the East Point Business Park, but this function could be moved to a new East Wall station at or near the Tolka Bridge, as suggested above.

I think, if the DART Underground project is to deal with its issues in the Fairwiew/East Wall/Clontarf Road area of town, as part of the DART Underground project, then it should look at scrapping the Clontarf Road Station entirely and aim to relocate that station to somewhere nearer to a halfway point between Killester and the station I am suggesting at East Wall.

Perhaps somewhere around the junction of the real Howth Road and the Railway line. Unlike the original Clontarf Road station, there would be many people living in the area, and many more buses passing by. You might have to take a very small junk out of Mount Temple School, but I hope not.

We'll have to see how it pans out, but that scenario would create a nice distance between the Docklands station, an East Wall station, A 'Clontarf' station somewhere around the Howth Road/Railway Junction and the existing Killester station on the current line.

It would obviously cost extra money, I'm sure, somewhere, but wouldn't that be an alignment that would keep many more people happy?

The Station will be under North Wall Station according to the original Plans and the line would Emerge on the CIE land off Sheriff Street a couple of hundred meters east of Docklands where the old Freight line was.

The Original Clontarf Station (ON Howth Road) was closed in the 50's due to low usage. There has not been much of development or population explosion in the area since. The reason it was not re-used in the 90's is because it's worth a hell of a lot more than CIE Sold it for when the station closed and they could build Clontarf Road cheaper. I don't buy that it's got low population density in the Fairview or Marino area compared to East Wall or Clontarf. Unlikely there'll be selling of parts of Fairview Park or Large Scale Building on it, it is a former landfill after all.

BonnieSituation

In fairness to Mr Wolf, I remember around the time that Paschal Donohoe cancelled DU, being that the locals in East Wall, who were going to be the most affected by its construction would not benefit from a new station.

I remember nearly throwing my phone out the window when I read it. Almost certain it was mentioned in the IT at the time. I’ll try have a root in a couple of hours when I get a chance.

jd

BonnieSituation wrote:

In fairness to Mr Wolf, I remember around the time that Paschal Donohoe cancelled DU, being that the locals in East Wall, who ...

Are his constituents

BonnieSituation

jd wrote: »

Are his constituents

Exactly

lucernarian

The Original Clontarf Station (ON Howth Road) was closed in the 50's due to low usage. There has not been much of development or population explosion in the area since. The reason it was not re-used in the 90's is because it's worth a hell of a lot more than CIE Sold it for when the station closed and they could build Clontarf Road cheaper. I don't buy that it's got low population density in the Fairview or Marino area compared to East Wall or Clontarf. Unlikely there'll be selling of parts of Fairview Park or Large Scale Building on it, it is a former landfill after all.

The current clontarf road is surrounded by parks, car parking and the dart depot itself on all sides. If you could pick anywhere with the lowest population density along it, that would be the place. That's partly why the Fairview dart depot is there in the first place.

A station near the depot, on the East Wall Rd. side, would also allow driver handovers at the station's platform, possibly in both directions. It makes for a smoother operation compared to the frequent stoppages between Connolly and Clontarf road.

It's also much closer to Eastpoint business park along with a densely-populated part of Dublin nearby (far more dense than Clontarf itself).

To me, the biggest obstacle would be underground, especially if a station building would be placed over where the port tunnel is basically cut and cover.

The traffic issues in that area are grim and I don't see much improvement any time soon. Permeability from the south and west are still quite poor and need to be addressed. Mind you, nimbyism has gotten in the way of a bridge being built for cycling purposes.

Sam Russell

Mod: This thread is about Dart Expansion. It is not about the trouble the residents of East Wall have. If you want to discuss East Wall issues take it some place else. Warning over.

roddney

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's probably a five minute walk from Platform 7 to the Luas at Connolly.

It's got to be at least that. It's a very poor connection.

[QUOUTE=D.L.R]East Wall is a low density ghetto that should really be redeveloped.

Clontarf Rd station really isn't ideal, I mean its in the middle of a park ffs. They built it there because it was cheap and easy. Same old story.

Ossary Junction has the potential to be a useful interchange location. Or at least it would be if this wasn't Ireland, where railways seem to be some sort of alien technology we haven't quite figured out yet

[/quote]

To be honest.  First thing they should think about is 3 or 4 track the line.
Then move the stations that are in the wrong locations and add new one at the same time.
Clontarf -> Howth Road (Closer to Clontarf houses)
New East Wall Road Bridge (Closer to East Wall, North Strand & East Point Business Park)
Killester -> Collins Ave Bridge (Closer to Main Road and Killester Village)
Harmonstown -> Brookwood Ave (Closer to Main Road)

Also, foot bridges in Clontarf & East Wall Rd should be tunnels under, not cheaper over bridge that requires scaling about 4 normal flights.

Brian CivilEng

roddney wrote: »

Killester -> Collins Ave Bridge (Closer to Main Road and Killester Village)
Harmonstown -> Brookwood Ave (Closer to Main Road)

I've always thought Harmonstown station is what public transport would look like if it was illegal. Looks well connected on plan view, but on the ground it is well hidden down alleys.

Killester station really should have an entrance to Collins Ave bridge, the end of the platforms are less than 150m from the bridge, but if you are in the wrong end of the train it could be a 650m walk to Collins Ave. Considering they say the catchment of a station is 1km from the entrance, it would bring a few more housing estates within range. The DART is a brilliant system in the limited fashion it operates today. I do think they could sweat the asset more.

murphaph

Poor access to stations is a general problem, IMO largely caused by the requirement for barriers to prevent fare evasion.

We could go with the German model where all stations are open (like Irish tram stops!) but revenue protection inspection is taken more seriously.

minikin

murphaph wrote: »

Poor access to stations is a general problem, IMO largely caused by the requirement for barriers to prevent fare evasion.

We could go with the German model where all stations are open (like Irish tram stops!) but revenue protection inspection is taken more seriously.

Someone in Irish Rail read your post:

bk

ROFLOL, finally that is the ticket inspectors we need

strassenwo!f

I can see, Rodnney, that you broadly agree with me about possibly making some alterations to the location of DART stations in the East Wall/Howth Road area, in order to expand the reach of the DART service.

I imagine that such changes would only make proper sense within the context of a DART Underground project actually happening, where the costs of rejigging adjacent station possibilities would be relatively small, but could be very effective.

Without the project the costs would probably be seen as quite large, and it's hard to see how any change would come about.

I don't yet know enough about the other stations you mentioned in your post to have any insight as to how they might be improved. But we do know that Irish Rail's KRP project involved removal of a station - which had no obviously unremediable defects - and its replacement at a more 'convenient' location a few hundred metres away but with the same name. The precedent is there.

I am also intrigued by McAlban's suggestion, on the previous page, that Fairview Park's location on a former dump might preclude some of its riverside frontage ever being sold off for development.

Some of the highest land prices paid during the era of the Tiger were for development land on the Poolbeg Peninsula, mostly an ex-dump. That, of course, didn't work out terribly well for the initial investors, but it appears as if it's going to happen now. People will pay anything for a view of a bit of water, ex-dump or not.

McAlban

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I can see, Rodnney, that you broadly agree with me about possibly making some alterations to the location of DART stations in the East Wall/Howth Road area, in order to expand the reach of the DART service.

I imagine that such changes would only make proper sense within the context of a DART Underground project actually happening, where the costs of rejigging adjacent station possibilities would be relatively small, but could be very effective.

Without the project the costs would probably be seen as quite large, and it's hard to see how any change would come about.

I don't yet know enough about the other stations you mentioned in your post to have any insight as to how they might be improved. But we do know that Irish Rail's KRP project involved removal of a station - which had no obviously unremediable defects - and its replacement at a more 'convenient' location a few hundred metres away but with the same name. The precedent is there.

I am also intrigued by McAlban's suggestion, on the previous page, that Fairview Park's location on a former dump might preclude some of its riverside frontage ever being sold off for development.

Some of the highest land prices paid during the era of the Tiger were for development land on the Poolbeg Peninsula, mostly an ex-dump. That, of course, didn't work out terribly well for the initial investors, but it appears as if it's going to happen now. People will pay anything for a view of a bit of water, ex-dump or not.

Poolbeg was planned reclamation, resulting from the building of the South Wall which prevented Dublin Bay from silting up and the need for a power station close to the port. The North Lotts area (Basically anywhere east of the North Strand Road) was also planned reclamation. Fairview park was landfill converted to a park.

The Issue there is not only the engineering solution to building on landfill, but also re-zoning public green space as development land.

Sam Russell

McAlban wrote: »

Poolbeg was planned reclamation, resulting from the building of the South Wall which prevented Dublin Bay from silting up and the need for a power station close to the port. The North Lotts area (Basically anywhere east of the North Strand Road) was also planned reclamation. Fairview park was landfill converted to a park.

The Issue there is not only the engineering solution to building on landfill, but also re-zoning public green space as development land.

The Irish Glass Bottle site is landfill. So problems are going to be experienced on the development of that site.

McAlban

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Irish Glass Bottle site is landfill. So problems are going to be experienced on the development of that site.

Yes, But there are engineering and design solutions to such problems.

My Point was that there's unlikely to be development on Fairview Park because of those issues, in addition to the likely resistance by locals to having their amenity area turned into a housing development.

bk

Yes, ZERO charge of Fairview Park being developed on! Building on city parks simply isn't the done thing in Western European cities these days, it is a complete non starter, put the thought out of you head.

We need more green space in our cities, not less!

What we should be doing is densifying. Buy up and knock idiotic 2 storey houses just a few meters from the river (see the whole East Wall area) and build large apartment buildings and/our increase the heights of existing 3 storey apartment buildings to 6 storeys, etc. as you are seeing all over Paris, etc.

Keep the parks for people to use and enjoy, but have more people living near the parks to enjoy them.

BTW Clontarf Road is the perfect example of what we should be doing all over the city. Frequent free bus service carrying people to the station (from the business park), so that it is heavily used, despite not being surrounded by houses (though there are houses right across the road, even apartment buildings within 60 seconds walk, just not all around it).

lucernarian

The bus service is used because the station is not where it needs to be. It's a failure of Clontarf Road, not a success. There's a large amount of land to the east of the train line that's basically wasted and scarcely-used grassland also.

Similar could be said of Clongriffin but I presume there's a plan for the east of that station at least.

McAlban

lucernarian wrote: »

The bus service is used because the station is not where it needs to be. It's a failure of Clontarf Road, not a success. There's a large amount of land to the east of the train line that's basically wasted and scarcely-used grassland also.

Similar could be said of Clongriffin but I presume there's a plan for the east of that station at least.

You mean the all weather pitches in Fairview Park that are used almost every day? or the reclaimed grass area between Clontarf Road and and the seafront?

Because I can tell you, the residents of Clontarf Road or Fairview are never going to let DCC change the zoning on this. Even when flood defences were planned for the area they objected on the grounds the loss of view would devalue their properties...

markpb

I haven't seen anyone claiming we should build on Fairview park. People area saying that Clontarf road is poorly located because there only things around it are a park (which is unlikely to attract transport trips) and some reclaimed land beside the estuary coast.

CatInABox

markpb wrote: »

I haven't seen anyone claiming we should build on Fairview park. People area saying that Clontarf road is poorly located because there only things around it are a park (which is unlikely to attract transport trips) and some reclaimed land beside the estuary coast.

And there's no where you can really move it to make it any better. The far end of the park will suffer from the same issues, while also being a lot closer to another station. It would be closer to East Point, but the park would still probably run a shuttle service to it.

It's fine where it is. It really shouldn't inspire pages of debate over it's future, particularly as there's not really a clear, better option.

plodder

lucernarian wrote: »

The current clontarf road is surrounded by parks, car parking and the dart depot itself on all sides. If you could pick anywhere with the lowest population density along it, that would be the place. That's partly why the Fairview dart depot is there in the first place.

A station near the depot, on the East Wall Rd. side, would also allow driver handovers at the station's platform, possibly in both directions. It makes for a smoother operation compared to the frequent stoppages between Connolly and Clontarf road.

It's also much closer to Eastpoint business park along with a densely-populated part of Dublin nearby (far more dense than Clontarf itself).

To me, the biggest obstacle would be underground, especially if a station building would be placed over where the port tunnel is basically cut and cover.

The traffic issues in that area are grim and I don't see much improvement any time soon. Permeability from the south and west are still quite poor and need to be addressed. Mind you, nimbyism has gotten in the way of a bridge being built for cycling purposes.

I work in East point and took the DART yesterday. It took me 15-ish minutes to walk from the office to Clontarf rd. stn. I was surprised the courtesy bus left its stop at the same time but arrived after me. It can be slow, but I wouldn't have expected it to be that slow this time of year.

Separately, would it not be possible to provide pedestrian access to the station from Fairview park? Between Westwood and the depot there seems to be enough space. It would only take a very small corner of the park out of use. I think an additional station at the edge of the Tolka would make sense also, serving North Strand/East wall/Croke park. No need to close Clontarf rd.

CatInABox

plodder wrote: »

I work in East point and took the DART yesterday. It took me 15-ish minutes to walk from the office to Clontarf rd. stn. I was surprised the courtesy bus left its stop at the same time but arrived after me. It can be slow, but I wouldn't have expected it to be that slow this time of year.

That road can be at a total standstill at times, very frustrating. It's been a while since I've worked in East Point, so I can't remember at all, but does the Bus pick people up from multiple points in the park?

plodder wrote: »

Separately, would it not be possible to provide pedestrian access to the station from Fairview park? Between Westwood and the depot there seems to be enough space. It would only take a very small corner of the park out of use. I think an additional station at the edge of the Tolka would make sense also, serving North Strand/East wall/Croke park. No need to close Clontarf rd.

Access is a problem for most of the Dart stations, another very frustrating problem. An access point that ran between the tracks and Westwood would be ideal, essentially adding two access points on the other side of the tracks.