Germans against bailing out Ireland

Darragh29

Riskymove wrote: »

we will probably never get back to that level of employment again, hardly anyone does, and ours was a house of cards with so many employed in one sector (construction)

but that does not mean we cannot have some jobs created, there are some being created as we speak so if we can get some even when things are that bad there is some hope

We can return to full employment no problem, once the political will and vision exists. There is no problem with creating 500,000 sustainable new jobs, but we won't be doing it any time soon because as a country, we have no concept of sustainable entrepreneurship. We think that we create sustainable jobs by wining and dining a few US multinationals, and they bring FDI here and we're all sorted! These jobs are not sustainable jobs, as we've found out in the case of Dell and other multinationals that have since upped tent and departed to Poland.

If we want to create SUSTAINABLE jobs, then we have to understand that we need to create them here, they start off as one, two and three people operations and they grow from there. Some won't grow but will fail, but that's all part of the cycle. We don't understand that here because we are always chasing the cheap, easy, fast buck and sustainable entrepreneurship is DAMN hard work.

We can sort ourselves out here, but we need to revisit our attitude to sustainable entrepreneurship!

The EU should say to us:

"Howya's lads, listen we want to throw you a life line here, but in all seriousness, you lads haven't a fu*kin clue what you are doing! So here's how we'll do it... We want to see 2,000 Irish private sector jobs being created a month, and your public sector current account expenditure, coming down by 250 million a month, PER month, for the next 12 months... When you can tick those two boxes, we'll lodge 550 million Euro in the first week of the next month into the current account for the Irish government! You lads let us know how you are getting on, give us a shout if you need any help on the job creation front, the public sector expenditure stuff, you could do with your eyes shut!"

d00gle

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

Darragh29

d00gle wrote: »

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

Very true... The thing is, say you look at a part time job, you could be working 20 hours a week on 10 Euro an hour. That's more or less the same income as the dole! So if you can't find a full time job, but you could find a part time one to get you by, sure why would you when you can get 207 Euro a week or whatever it is, for nothing???

Idbatterim

people shouldnt be having kids if they cant afford them, if you are relaying on child benefit to raise kids you shouldnt be having them in the first place! child benefit should be drastically reduced or completely gotten rid of!

Idbatterim

the smart economy! is that meant to be a joke?! coughlan would have problems with the economics of running a corner shop! once we have our smart economy, we can sell all our great ideas to the current idiot economies, Germany, France, Japan, United States, China etc... oh wait!

Darragh29

Idbatterim wrote: »

the smart economy! is that meant to be a joke?! coughlan would have problems with the economics of running a corner shop! once we have our smart economy, we can sell all our great ideas to the current idiot economies, Germany, France, Japan, United States, China etc... oh wait!

We are too fond of "soundbytes" here in this country and we are bigger saps for accepting PR generated coded bullsh*t like "knowledge economy", etc... We are no more near the creation of a knowledge economy here than the man on the moon, we have no concept of sustainable job creation, of risk taking, even if we had our heads around these key tenets of enterpreneurship, we don't have any access to capital to fund these start-ups, as banks are not lending and the state is not supporting enterprise creation.

P. Breathnach

Taltos wrote: »

... if it was up to me I would storm the dail right now and demand their total resignation.

And then what?

ejmaztec

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And then what?

Free accommodation in a seriously under-funded mental health facility.

FutureTaoiseach

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

ejmaztec

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

The German people will have a say in it in the September elections. I read somewhere that potential Euro-zone bailouts from their taxes isn't going down too well.

jmayo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

So do you reckon a German Chancellor would find it easier to excuse using the German voters taxes to bail out the irresponsible Irish, rather than bailout their own car industry ?
Just like in other countries the German government will have to face their voters and they ain't going to put their necks on the line to save a few incompetent paddies.

Or do you subscribe to the notion that they will roll over and donate the money to us to use as our government sees fit ?
IF and when they do have to give us money, there will be a hell of a lot of strings attached, probably just as many as if the IMF were holding the purse.

harsea8

Personally I can't blame them for not wanting to pay for our mistakes/greed. And even if the political elite in German ignore the will of their people (ie, voters) which is unlikely, any payment is likely to come with some strong T&Cs that will be akin to anything the IMF would demand (and quite right too!)

ei.sdraob

why would Germany bail us out (were not even East Germany and that reunification cost them alot)? the question posed to these people surveyed was based on a false premise in the first place

its not Germany's job to bail out other countries, they are not exactly doing well themselves

neither does Germany control the euro, ECB does, and ECB are helping quite alot by keeping the base rates at record lows and recently by purchasing corporate bonds

if ECB fails then IMF would step in, but imho IMF is already up to its ears bailing out likes of Ukraine

so to summarise

the survey is based on false premise > hence this thread is rather pointless as well

but i admit its entertaining watching how big headed some of the posters are thinking they are entitled to help

Ireland deserves no help we dug this ****hole were gonna roll in it now as well :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

people shouldnt be having kids if they cant afford them,

Crikey Idbatterim,you`re gettin dangerously close to the nub of things now....;)
Probably the biggest weight on this Gubbermint`s shoulders is the knowledge of just how large the cuts to the DSFA`s Budget need to be.

Mssrs Cowen,and co are in posession of "Advice`s to Cabinet" from various Senior Civil Service elements outlining the serious Public Order Fall-Out consequent upon the reductions which HAVE to be made.

Much of this iniquity nonsense comes dressed up in "Who`ll think of the Childer" wrapping as the realization slowly dawns that having a child is the supreme human statement which should NEVER be uttered without the persons involved having done some serious computing as to whether they have the ability to provide for THEIR offspring.

Instead we now have entire cities full to bursting with groups of feral youth each more savage than the other....was anybody REALLY surprised that the latest potential shooter taken in by the Gardai earlier this week was a 15 year old....a true Celtic Tiger Cub indeed.

Everywhere we travel in modern Ireland we see the all too obvious evidence of our generation of "Highly Educated,motivated and flexible english speaking youth"...most of that evidence consists of trails of wanton,wilful destruction as graffiti covered walls,skeletal glass-less Bus Shelters,burnt-out litter bins and rubbish strewn lairs emerge as the Logo of Modern Ireland.

The reasons,of course,are manifold and usually we end up being asked to accept that the "plight" of the modern misunderstood youth is all our own fault...as indeed SOME of it is.

The ease of availibility for multiple complimentary DSFA allowances and their add-on`s ensured a rapid growth in the dependency factor which few Employers would ever come close to equalling.

How could any employer equal a combination such as.
Single Parents Allowance.
Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.
Disablement Benefit.
Private Rented Accomodation Allowance.
Childrens Allowance.

Added to the above would be the Back to School Allowance,The Christmas Bonus(es) and perhaps a Medical Card,Free Transport Pass and whatever discretionary payments that could be wheedled and cajoled from the relevant DSFA Officer.

NO employee in ANY sector can compete with this amount of financial muscle and the above scenario is by no means unusual,even in today`s situation.

Make no mistake but any significant reduction or restructuring of this system will bring forth SERIOUS resistance which at some point will either have to be acceded to OR repressed.

None of this will be easy or nice for the people involved to bear,not least the Gardai/Military who will be expected to carry out their duty to protect and maintain Good Public Order.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and as i`m typing a long lost benefactor or fantastically wealthy maiden aunt will happen along with a skipful of €`s to keep all the Childer happy and their parents in Beer and Crisps.

It`s not that long ago since a former Minister for Justice proclamed that he did not want to see Ireland policed by European-Style Para-Military style Police (a-la the French CRS)...however the near future may yet see that ex-minister having to eat his wig as he screams out for that very style of policing !!!!

Just keep your children off the streets....or perhaps consider not having them in the first place ???

7mountpleasant

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey Idbatterim,you`re gettin dangerously close to the nub of things now....;)
Probably the biggest weight on this Gubbermint`s shoulders is the knowledge of just how large the cuts to the DSFA`s Budget need to be.

Mssrs Cowen,and co are in posession of "Advice`s to Cabinet" from various Senior Civil Service elements outlining the serious Public Order Fall-Out consequent upon the reductions which HAVE to be made.

Much of this iniquity nonsense comes dressed up in "Who`ll think of the Childer" wrapping as the realization slowly dawns that having a child is the supreme human statement which should NEVER be uttered without the persons involved having done some serious computing as to whether they have the ability to provide for THEIR offspring.

Instead we now have entire cities full to bursting with groups of feral youth each more savage than the other....was anybody REALLY surprised that the latest potential shooter taken in by the Gardai earlier this week was a 15 year old....a true Celtic Tiger Cub indeed.

Everywhere we travel in modern Ireland we see the all too obvious evidence of our generation of "Highly Educated,motivated and flexible english speaking youth"...most of that evidence consists of trails of wanton,wilful destruction as graffiti covered walls,skeletal glass-less Bus Shelters,burnt-out litter bins and rubbish strewn lairs emerge as the Logo of Modern Ireland.

The reasons,of course,are manifold and usually we end up being asked to accept that the "plight" of the modern misunderstood youth is all our own fault...as indeed SOME of it is.

The ease of availibility for multiple complimentary DSFA allowances and their add-on`s ensured a rapid growth in the dependency factor which few Employers would ever come close to equalling.

How could any employer equal a combination such as.
Single Parents Allowance.
Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.
Disablement Benefit.
Private Rented Accomodation Allowance.
Childrens Allowance.

Added to the above would be the Back to School Allowance,The Christmas Bonus(es) and perhaps a Medical Card,Free Transport Pass and whatever discretionary payments that could be wheedled and cajoled from the relevant DSFA Officer.

NO employee in ANY sector can compete with this amount of financial muscle and the above scenario is by no means unusual,even in today`s situation.

Make no mistake but any significant reduction or restructuring of this system will bring forth SERIOUS resistance which at some point will either have to be acceded to OR repressed.

None of this will be easy or nice for the people involved to bear,not least the Gardai/Military who will be expected to carry out their duty to protect and maintain Good Public Order.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and as i`m typing a long lost benefactor or fantastically wealthy maiden aunt will happen along with a skipful of €`s to keep all the Childer happy and their parents in Beer and Crisps.

It`s not that long ago since a former Minister for Justice proclamed that he did not want to see Ireland policed by European-Style Para-Military style Police (a-la the French CRS)...however the near future may yet see that ex-minister having to eat his wig as he screams out for that very style of policing !!!!

Just keep your children off the streets....or perhaps consider not having them in the first place ???

Read that post twice , still none the wiser as to whats going on

johnathan woss

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Read that post twice , still none the wiser as to whats going on

1) The dole / child benefit / etc has to be cut.

2) The dependent class will not accept it.

3) There'll be an upsurge in crime and social violence.


Seems pretty clear to me.

irish_bob

d00gle wrote: »

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

while the dole is too high , such was the level to which property prices reached , we have thousands of people who having lost thier jobs now rely on the dole to pay mortgages , the elephant in the room IMO is public sector pay , the source of revenue which allowed this country claim the title of europes highest paid public sector is gone and wont be returning , police in this country far out earn thier counterparts in other richer countries , they will have to take a pay cut as will teachers , nurses doctors and of course politicians , public opinion does not support a cut in wellfare and such is the fragile state of the country and while i detest the terms MOST VULNERABLE , i think cutting the dole for people with massive debt could tip us over , ive thought about this a lot in the last week and i believe now is not the time to cut the dole , the public sector will have to give up 1st , leave the dole the way it is for another year or two but by all means tackle wellfare in other area off people who dont need it , my mom for instance gets a widows pension of over 200 quid a week yet the woman has a half a million in the bank, she sold 60 acres of farm land at the height of the boom , people like her should not be on handouts , she has no debt and her kids are all working and shes still only 60

jmayo

irish_bob wrote: »

... my mom for instance gets a widows pension of over 200 quid a week yet the woman has a half a million in the bank, she sold 60 acres of farm land at the height of the boom , people like her should not be on handouts , she has no debt and her kids are all working and shes still only 60

Jeeze bob are you trying to marry her off talking like that.
I know a few builders who could do with a bit of cash injection about now.

irish_bob

jmayo wrote: »

Jeeze bob are you trying to marry her off talking like that.
I know a few builders who could do with a bit of cash injection about now.

ha ha , so much for old = poor eh

hiorta

Wouldn't 'bailing the Irish people out' just reinforce the very selfish thinking that brought all this about?
What's wrong with taking the medicine?

irish_bob

hiorta wrote: »

Wouldn't 'bailing the Irish people out' just reinforce the very selfish thinking that brought all this about?
What's wrong with taking the medicine?

most people dont like the taste

Fluffybums

bob, sadly I think the debt/mortgage time bomb is going to go off whether the dole is cut or not. Once the German and French economies start to pick up the ECB will raise interest rates to control inflation in these countries. Ireland will lag some considerable time behind so the economy will be down the tubes still, the unemployed will then be sat in homes with increasing mortgage rates..........
The reality is the country cannot afford to pay €200 + unemployment benefit to 500,000 people (about 1/4 of the potential workforce). I do think that Cowen et.al. should lead by example and be benchmarked to levels in countries of a similar population and economic status. This should proceed down the levels of the public sector and each person should have to justify their position. If the excess was cut from the top down, I suspect sizeable savings could be made with little effect on the numbers of frontline staff. The chances of this happening are extremely thin unfortunately.

Getting back on topic, why should the German's or any other country help out a country that pays its leader more that those os the G8 countries. Also, if the representatives of the people are dishonest, fraudulent, lazy, stupid etc. they take no responsibility and stay in their seats and are re-elected:rolleyes:.

irish_bob

Fluffybums wrote: »

bob, sadly I think the debt/mortgage time bomb is going to go off whether the dole is cut or not. Once the German and French economies start to pick up the ECB will raise interest rates to control inflation in these countries. Ireland will lag some considerable time behind so the economy will be down the tubes still, the unemployed will then be sat in homes with increasing mortgage rates..........
The reality is the country cannot afford to pay €200 + unemployment benefit to 500,000 people (about 1/4 of the potential workforce). I do think that Cowen et.al. should lead by example and be benchmarked to levels in countries of a similar population and economic status. This should proceed down the levels of the public sector and each person should have to justify their position. If the excess was cut from the top down, I suspect sizeable savings could be made with little effect on the numbers of frontline staff. The chances of this happening are extremely thin unfortunately.

Getting back on topic, why should the German's or any other country help out a country that pays its leader more that those os the G8 countries. Also, if the representatives of the people are dishonest, fraudulent, lazy, stupid etc. they take no responsibility and stay in their seats and are re-elected:rolleyes:.

ireland and new zealand have a population which are very similar yet the prime minister of new zealand earns under 100k per year

Fluffybums

irish_bob wrote: »

ireland and new zealand have a population which are very similar yet the prime minister of new zealand earns under 100k per year

Our TDs earn a bit more than that - lets see the savings start at the top.

RoryH

Reading this thread makes me relieved that we elect representatives to debate political issues, and make decisions on them. Can you imagine the dail with with 166 average people there

ei.sdraob

RoryH wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me relieved that we elect representatives to debate political issues, and make decisions on them. Can you imagine the dail with with 166 average people there

can you imaging the dail with 166 boards.ie politics forum members there