Germans against bailing out Ireland

gurramok

We are on our own or is it IMF intervention?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0717/breaking44.html?via=mr

Opinions?

Can't really blame them to be honest.

If it was the other way around and it was us been ask to bail out another country, what do you think the people here would say.

gurramok

So there goes the EU bailout?

Sea Sharp

I wonder could the European Central Bank print off bailouts for EU nations such as ourselves?

Dob74

Hardly a surprise. Why should the German's bail out countries that acted irresponsibly?
We have been one of the worst countries for personal borrowing over the last few years, egged on by our government of course.
So what's in it for the German's in giving us money. They have been quite generous to us for the last 20 years. So I dont think they have any moral or practical reasons for giving us a cent.

Sand

This all assumes that what the average German thinks is important. Their government will not allow the Euro to be undermined by the incompetence of Cowen and Company.

I am waiting for the boards poster to show up and talk about how the Germans have no right to dictate to anyone given their history. I reckon that boards poster should be appointed ambassador to Germany for maximum hilarity.

Martyr

who might that be now?

johnnyskeleton

gurramok wrote: »

We are on our own or is it IMF intervention?

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0717/breaking44.html?via=mr

Opinions?

Good on them. Whether at crunch time they do bail us out or not is another thing, but I'm glad that they are making it clear that we have to sort out our own mess. Puts pressure on the government to get its act in order, and on the people to get realistic. Also lets us know that Lisbon is not a game and we can't use it to extort money from the EU. German government ministers have said similar things before, but need to come out and specifically say that they will not be bailing out Ireland in any shape or form.

irish_bob

why would they bail out a country that pays its hospital consultans twice as much as thier german counterparts , countries in need of bailouts dont do that

the_syco

German people != German government / EU government, tbh.

oppenheimer1

The real question is would the German Government be willing to pay €1.5bn/yr in order to save the integrity of their currency. What the german people would like really doesn't come into it, the bailout would be the lesser of the two evils I would imagine in the eyes of the germans. €1.5bn isn't much in the German governments budget, their federal budget spend for 2010 €327.7bn with a deficit of €86.1bn

A german bailout would probably be worse than an IMF one in terms of the swinging cuts that it would impose. In order for the german people to be able to digest it, the bailout would have to be seen as addressing fundamental flaws in our cost base, and then Germanising it. This would be in order to protect the parties that approved of it at the german ballot box.

I hope it won't come to it though and we are able to get our affairs in order on our own.

FGR

Well.

We might get excellent public transport out of it.

peasant

What do you expect from a public poll ?

Go around Irish streets and ask the people if Ireland should spend a billion on bailing out the Faroer Islands, what do you think the answer would be?

No effen way ...that would be it .

What the EU bureaucracy will decide to do once they realise that the basket case that is the Irish finances severly threatens the integritiy of the Euro, that is an entirely different matter.

One thing you can be sure of though ...they won't ask us either if we agree or disagree with the severe cuts in public spending they are going to impose in exchange for any bailout.

iseethelight

Our chancellor will make the correct decision for the glory and good of our 4th Reich.

jmayo

the_syco wrote: »

German people != German government / EU government, tbh.

That is true, but some people around here, and probably government, think that an EU/ECB bailout would be much more preferable to the IMF.
I have my doubts because at this stage the EU, the ECB just like all foreign investors view Ireland as a very badly run corrupt tinpot country, that blew their economy on a spending spurgle, both in personal and state terms.
All they have to do is look at the mess we made of our regulatory authorities and the fact we still haven't imposed sanctions on the ones responsible for the meltdown.
In fact we rewarded them with early retirement and lump sum payouts.

Why should EU/ECB offer us better terms than the IMF ?
Why should they tolerate us spending huge amounts of money on social welfare, on high state employees salaries and on bailing out the incompetence of our bankers and developers ?

It would be a very brave Chancellor that told their people we are going to use your taxes to bailout another country's bunch of ungrateful, incompetents who want to continue to live in the manner they became accustomed to during the days of cheap credit. :rolleyes:

creeper1

The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.

We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

kevteljeur

creeper1 wrote: »

The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.

Are you serious? The little island of 4m inhabitants, in in a dire and rapidly deteriorating economic situation is going to try and blackmail the powerful German economic machine over it's Euro? The little country with a debt-based economy telling the much larger country with the export-based economy which way is up in the EU?

You might recall that Brian Cowen went over to Germany a few months ago, promising the Irish electorate that he would negotiate funds and bailouts from the EU (And we really mean Germany). One short meeting with Angela Merkel later, he was back home with a sheepish look on his face and the harshest budget we've seen here in many long years. Don't think for one second that Ireland holds the cards here. It's safe to say that he he was told that if he didn't come back with a Lisbon treaty approval and savage cuts in expenditure, he needn't show his face there again.

The Euro did as much for Ireland as for any other EU state, and don't forget the many long years of EC/EU subsidies. It hasn't been forgotten in those wealthier countries, even by the 'man on the street', that Ireland happily absorbed a lot of money over the years. Certainly that isn't lost on Germany and France.

Could it even be possible that Ireland will be forced to leave the Euro zone altogether? It's unlikely, but if Ireland is the biggest danger to the Euro zone while bringing very little to the table, could it happen? (I direct that to any of the regulars here who might know more about the ins and outs of that scenario). If Ireland deteriorated much further and refused to stabilise the economy, and particularly didn't raise corporate taxes and introduce more regulation, it might be a possibility, although I imagine it would be effectively tabled overnight.

creeper1 wrote: »

We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

In about 10 to 15 years. Very few countries have ever built an economy around 'knowing stuff'. At the end of the day, you need to make products and sell them, to have a unique proposition. I agree that Ireland could do it, but only as long we understand that this will be a country with low wage levels and low costs (at the '80s levels)), and that the innovation comes from within. It certainly won't come from the current government, and I very much doubt from the current opposition either, but that's personal opinion.



.

SkepticOne

kevteljeur wrote: »

The Euro did as much for Ireland as for any other EU state.

I disagree with this. We benefited from the removal of variable exchange rates like the other countries but we suffered from ECB base rates that were almost the precise opposite from what we should have had given our overheating economy. Rates were set for Europe as a whole but one of the problems with this is that you are going to have exaggerated booms and busts in peripheral economies.

I agree, though, with other points that we can't use this to blackmail Germany, whose attitude will be, quite rightly, that if the Euro does not suit us, we should get out.

Galen

Well we keep putting the people who got us into this mess in the first place, who in their right mind would this country money.

Fat_Fingers

Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..

irish_bob

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..

like dunnes stores , the difference is were irish seems to be the view many of us hold

craichoe

irish_bob wrote: »

like dunnes stores , the difference is were irish seems to be the view many of us hold

I have absolutely no clue what that means...........

7mountpleasant

Fat_Fingers wrote: »

Why should Germany save Ireland? EU membership means nothing. I really do mean why, its not a rhetorical question.
EU/Germany didn't save Latvia. They let IMF go in and literally destroy them. 40% pay cuts for the public service, pensions and social welfare cut etc..

If only the public sector unions would wake up and smell the coffee and have a look at Latvia maybe then they might stop holding this country to economic ransom and at the same time actually keep some of the special position there members have in society as opposed to external diktat which brings them into line with reality.

irish_bob

craichoe wrote: »

I have absolutely no clue what that means...........

we think the rules of going bankruptcy are different for us and that we dont have to accept cuts so as to avoid such bankruptcy , we also believe germany or someone else will bail us out without us changing the way we do things

97i9y3941

germans would know we woundnt spend the money wisely anyway,they have a good economy still regardless of the recession,the euro is victim of its own success aswell,its too strong for small countries like ours,not much favour been done across the water in england where they had the power to devalue their currency and encourage spending again/moving business out of here up to north/uk because its cheaper to do business

Idbatterim

Bail us out and what? spend the money on the most overpaid staff, inefficient public service and bloated social welfare bill! No way should they bail us out!

kmick

Two points
1. Who asked them to bail us out? Its only hypothetical and is like asking a German to spend money on rainbows asking them to give money to Ireland. In general they despise the Irish.
2. They are already bailing us out in the form of very low interest ECB loans to our banks which the banks are availing of liberally. While its not directly coming from the German exchequer it might as well be.

Taltos

I think they are dead right.

We really have to get ourselves out of this - and there are a lot of hard decisions to make. Pity we are not tackling them all.

> Government wages
> Pensions of elected officials - think it is a great idea - but how can you get a pension now in your 20s or 30s etc - why not wait until normal pensionable age.
> Mess of the health system - how is Mary still there?
> Mess of public finances
> Buying our votes over the last few years - why wasn't that money saved

I don't think I am the only one but think the only real way out of this mess is a complete overhaul of not only the government - but also our method of government - if it was up to me I would storm the dail right now and demand their total resignation.

Darragh29

creeper1 wrote: »

We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

Where do you think 500,000 jobs are going to come from??? Just leave 3rd level research and all the "smart" talk aside for a minute... Who do you think is going to be going down to the CRO (Companies Registration Office), on Parnell Street over the next 36 months and starting up businesses that will create jobs for the 500,000 people who will be unemployed by the end of this year???

It is going to take us at least 20-30 years, a whole generation, to create those jobs, assuming that we start doing the right things now, and there is still no sign of that happening!

I'm honestly amazed and breathtaken and the pure naievity of your post above, as if there is some kind of plan or program somewhere to create all these jobs?!?!? If there is a strategy in place (and I'm not aware that there is), how come we are still seeing 10,000 job losses a month, 12 months into a recession???

Riskymove

Darragh29 wrote: »

Where do you think 500,000 jobs are going to come from???

we will probably never get back to that level of employment again, hardly anyone does, and ours was a house of cards with so many employed in one sector (construction)

but that does not mean we cannot have some jobs created, there are some being created as we speak so if we can get some even when things are that bad there is some hope

jmayo

creeper1 wrote: »

The Germans must bail out Ireland if necessary or their project of the euro will go down the tubes. Ireland joined the euro - it didnt have to and we expect some payments in return for doing them this favour.

David McWilliams has written and spoken about this on radio. He sees it as a war situation. You must use all weapons at your disposle. He recommends no "yes" vote on Lisbon unless there is substatial help given to Ireland. No 'yes' vote will mean the Germans and their European project is stalled. I don't even think Ireland approves of an enlarged EU. What dawm right do the Germans have of forcing this down our throats?

I repeat - What right do they have to enlarge the EU and take on these backward semi third world countries in the east? That's where the problem lies.

We will be able to repay any debts soon enough anyway once the "smart economy" programme starts to pay off.

Are you for real ?
We did them a favour by joining the EURO, FFS ahhhhh :eek:
Who exactly do you think we are, we are a tiny portion of both the overall population and the economy of the EU.
Talk about having dillusions of grandeur :rolleyes:

In case it has slipped your mind (???) the EU, and Germany in particular has being pumping money into this country for the last 30 odd years and you appear to think they should make even more payments to us.
Talk about a feeling of entitlement.

A No vote will not mean the EU project is stalled, it will probably mean they will find a way forward without us and at this stage what exactly would the EU be missing ?

It is a bit rich of Ireland and Irish people to spout on about taking on backward and semi third world poor nations when we were one of the worse and benifited most from EU memebrship.
Why not check out a few archives and see what Ireland was like pre EEC and then come back to us.

Smart economy me ar**.
Are you parrotting the cr** that useless bent coughlan is always spouting.
She was at it again yesterday.
Take a look at our broadband infrastructure and you will see how good the basic infrastructure is for our smart economy :rolleyes:

PS mobile broadband does not count as high speed reliable internet and you can tattoo that on the ar** of that other muppet eamon ryan.

The more I read and listen to some Irish people the more I take on baord what my father used to say ...
"all the smart ones left, leaving the connected lucky few and gobdaws who didn't know their ars* from their elbow"

irish_bob wrote: »

we think the rules of going bankruptcy are different for us and that we dont have to accept cuts so as to avoid such bankruptcy , we also believe germany or someone else will bail us out without us changing the way we do things

Ah but we are different. Remember our bubble economy was different to all the others in the eocnomic history of the world.

Darragh29

Riskymove wrote: »

we will probably never get back to that level of employment again, hardly anyone does, and ours was a house of cards with so many employed in one sector (construction)

but that does not mean we cannot have some jobs created, there are some being created as we speak so if we can get some even when things are that bad there is some hope

We can return to full employment no problem, once the political will and vision exists. There is no problem with creating 500,000 sustainable new jobs, but we won't be doing it any time soon because as a country, we have no concept of sustainable entrepreneurship. We think that we create sustainable jobs by wining and dining a few US multinationals, and they bring FDI here and we're all sorted! These jobs are not sustainable jobs, as we've found out in the case of Dell and other multinationals that have since upped tent and departed to Poland.

If we want to create SUSTAINABLE jobs, then we have to understand that we need to create them here, they start off as one, two and three people operations and they grow from there. Some won't grow but will fail, but that's all part of the cycle. We don't understand that here because we are always chasing the cheap, easy, fast buck and sustainable entrepreneurship is DAMN hard work.

We can sort ourselves out here, but we need to revisit our attitude to sustainable entrepreneurship!

The EU should say to us:

"Howya's lads, listen we want to throw you a life line here, but in all seriousness, you lads haven't a fu*kin clue what you are doing! So here's how we'll do it... We want to see 2,000 Irish private sector jobs being created a month, and your public sector current account expenditure, coming down by 250 million a month, PER month, for the next 12 months... When you can tick those two boxes, we'll lodge 550 million Euro in the first week of the next month into the current account for the Irish government! You lads let us know how you are getting on, give us a shout if you need any help on the job creation front, the public sector expenditure stuff, you could do with your eyes shut!"

d00gle

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

Darragh29

d00gle wrote: »

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

Very true... The thing is, say you look at a part time job, you could be working 20 hours a week on 10 Euro an hour. That's more or less the same income as the dole! So if you can't find a full time job, but you could find a part time one to get you by, sure why would you when you can get 207 Euro a week or whatever it is, for nothing???

Idbatterim

people shouldnt be having kids if they cant afford them, if you are relaying on child benefit to raise kids you shouldnt be having them in the first place! child benefit should be drastically reduced or completely gotten rid of!

Idbatterim

the smart economy! is that meant to be a joke?! coughlan would have problems with the economics of running a corner shop! once we have our smart economy, we can sell all our great ideas to the current idiot economies, Germany, France, Japan, United States, China etc... oh wait!

Darragh29

Idbatterim wrote: »

the smart economy! is that meant to be a joke?! coughlan would have problems with the economics of running a corner shop! once we have our smart economy, we can sell all our great ideas to the current idiot economies, Germany, France, Japan, United States, China etc... oh wait!

We are too fond of "soundbytes" here in this country and we are bigger saps for accepting PR generated coded bullsh*t like "knowledge economy", etc... We are no more near the creation of a knowledge economy here than the man on the moon, we have no concept of sustainable job creation, of risk taking, even if we had our heads around these key tenets of enterpreneurship, we don't have any access to capital to fund these start-ups, as banks are not lending and the state is not supporting enterprise creation.

P. Breathnach

Taltos wrote: »

... if it was up to me I would storm the dail right now and demand their total resignation.

And then what?

ejmaztec

P. Breathnach wrote: »

And then what?

Free accommodation in a seriously under-funded mental health facility.

FutureTaoiseach

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

ejmaztec

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

The German people will have a say in it in the September elections. I read somewhere that potential Euro-zone bailouts from their taxes isn't going down too well.

jmayo

FutureTaoiseach wrote: »

Note that this is the opinion of the German people, who don't have a direct say on the issue. They elect representatives who decide for them. Hence, I wouldn't be too worried. There is a common stake for all Eurozone members in the stability of the Eurozone financial-system.

So do you reckon a German Chancellor would find it easier to excuse using the German voters taxes to bail out the irresponsible Irish, rather than bailout their own car industry ?
Just like in other countries the German government will have to face their voters and they ain't going to put their necks on the line to save a few incompetent paddies.

Or do you subscribe to the notion that they will roll over and donate the money to us to use as our government sees fit ?
IF and when they do have to give us money, there will be a hell of a lot of strings attached, probably just as many as if the IMF were holding the purse.

harsea8

Personally I can't blame them for not wanting to pay for our mistakes/greed. And even if the political elite in German ignore the will of their people (ie, voters) which is unlikely, any payment is likely to come with some strong T&Cs that will be akin to anything the IMF would demand (and quite right too!)

ei.sdraob

why would Germany bail us out (were not even East Germany and that reunification cost them alot)? the question posed to these people surveyed was based on a false premise in the first place

its not Germany's job to bail out other countries, they are not exactly doing well themselves

neither does Germany control the euro, ECB does, and ECB are helping quite alot by keeping the base rates at record lows and recently by purchasing corporate bonds

if ECB fails then IMF would step in, but imho IMF is already up to its ears bailing out likes of Ukraine

so to summarise

the survey is based on false premise > hence this thread is rather pointless as well

but i admit its entertaining watching how big headed some of the posters are thinking they are entitled to help

Ireland deserves no help we dug this ****hole were gonna roll in it now as well :rolleyes:

AlekSmart

people shouldnt be having kids if they cant afford them,

Crikey Idbatterim,you`re gettin dangerously close to the nub of things now....;)
Probably the biggest weight on this Gubbermint`s shoulders is the knowledge of just how large the cuts to the DSFA`s Budget need to be.

Mssrs Cowen,and co are in posession of "Advice`s to Cabinet" from various Senior Civil Service elements outlining the serious Public Order Fall-Out consequent upon the reductions which HAVE to be made.

Much of this iniquity nonsense comes dressed up in "Who`ll think of the Childer" wrapping as the realization slowly dawns that having a child is the supreme human statement which should NEVER be uttered without the persons involved having done some serious computing as to whether they have the ability to provide for THEIR offspring.

Instead we now have entire cities full to bursting with groups of feral youth each more savage than the other....was anybody REALLY surprised that the latest potential shooter taken in by the Gardai earlier this week was a 15 year old....a true Celtic Tiger Cub indeed.

Everywhere we travel in modern Ireland we see the all too obvious evidence of our generation of "Highly Educated,motivated and flexible english speaking youth"...most of that evidence consists of trails of wanton,wilful destruction as graffiti covered walls,skeletal glass-less Bus Shelters,burnt-out litter bins and rubbish strewn lairs emerge as the Logo of Modern Ireland.

The reasons,of course,are manifold and usually we end up being asked to accept that the "plight" of the modern misunderstood youth is all our own fault...as indeed SOME of it is.

The ease of availibility for multiple complimentary DSFA allowances and their add-on`s ensured a rapid growth in the dependency factor which few Employers would ever come close to equalling.

How could any employer equal a combination such as.
Single Parents Allowance.
Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.
Disablement Benefit.
Private Rented Accomodation Allowance.
Childrens Allowance.

Added to the above would be the Back to School Allowance,The Christmas Bonus(es) and perhaps a Medical Card,Free Transport Pass and whatever discretionary payments that could be wheedled and cajoled from the relevant DSFA Officer.

NO employee in ANY sector can compete with this amount of financial muscle and the above scenario is by no means unusual,even in today`s situation.

Make no mistake but any significant reduction or restructuring of this system will bring forth SERIOUS resistance which at some point will either have to be acceded to OR repressed.

None of this will be easy or nice for the people involved to bear,not least the Gardai/Military who will be expected to carry out their duty to protect and maintain Good Public Order.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and as i`m typing a long lost benefactor or fantastically wealthy maiden aunt will happen along with a skipful of €`s to keep all the Childer happy and their parents in Beer and Crisps.

It`s not that long ago since a former Minister for Justice proclamed that he did not want to see Ireland policed by European-Style Para-Military style Police (a-la the French CRS)...however the near future may yet see that ex-minister having to eat his wig as he screams out for that very style of policing !!!!

Just keep your children off the streets....or perhaps consider not having them in the first place ???

7mountpleasant

AlekSmart wrote: »

Crikey Idbatterim,you`re gettin dangerously close to the nub of things now....;)
Probably the biggest weight on this Gubbermint`s shoulders is the knowledge of just how large the cuts to the DSFA`s Budget need to be.

Mssrs Cowen,and co are in posession of "Advice`s to Cabinet" from various Senior Civil Service elements outlining the serious Public Order Fall-Out consequent upon the reductions which HAVE to be made.

Much of this iniquity nonsense comes dressed up in "Who`ll think of the Childer" wrapping as the realization slowly dawns that having a child is the supreme human statement which should NEVER be uttered without the persons involved having done some serious computing as to whether they have the ability to provide for THEIR offspring.

Instead we now have entire cities full to bursting with groups of feral youth each more savage than the other....was anybody REALLY surprised that the latest potential shooter taken in by the Gardai earlier this week was a 15 year old....a true Celtic Tiger Cub indeed.

Everywhere we travel in modern Ireland we see the all too obvious evidence of our generation of "Highly Educated,motivated and flexible english speaking youth"...most of that evidence consists of trails of wanton,wilful destruction as graffiti covered walls,skeletal glass-less Bus Shelters,burnt-out litter bins and rubbish strewn lairs emerge as the Logo of Modern Ireland.

The reasons,of course,are manifold and usually we end up being asked to accept that the "plight" of the modern misunderstood youth is all our own fault...as indeed SOME of it is.

The ease of availibility for multiple complimentary DSFA allowances and their add-on`s ensured a rapid growth in the dependency factor which few Employers would ever come close to equalling.

How could any employer equal a combination such as.
Single Parents Allowance.
Jobseekers Allowance/Benefit.
Disablement Benefit.
Private Rented Accomodation Allowance.
Childrens Allowance.

Added to the above would be the Back to School Allowance,The Christmas Bonus(es) and perhaps a Medical Card,Free Transport Pass and whatever discretionary payments that could be wheedled and cajoled from the relevant DSFA Officer.

NO employee in ANY sector can compete with this amount of financial muscle and the above scenario is by no means unusual,even in today`s situation.

Make no mistake but any significant reduction or restructuring of this system will bring forth SERIOUS resistance which at some point will either have to be acceded to OR repressed.

None of this will be easy or nice for the people involved to bear,not least the Gardai/Military who will be expected to carry out their duty to protect and maintain Good Public Order.

Of course I could be entirely wrong and as i`m typing a long lost benefactor or fantastically wealthy maiden aunt will happen along with a skipful of €`s to keep all the Childer happy and their parents in Beer and Crisps.

It`s not that long ago since a former Minister for Justice proclamed that he did not want to see Ireland policed by European-Style Para-Military style Police (a-la the French CRS)...however the near future may yet see that ex-minister having to eat his wig as he screams out for that very style of policing !!!!

Just keep your children off the streets....or perhaps consider not having them in the first place ???

Read that post twice , still none the wiser as to whats going on

johnathan woss

7mountpleasant wrote: »

Read that post twice , still none the wiser as to whats going on

1) The dole / child benefit / etc has to be cut.

2) The dependent class will not accept it.

3) There'll be an upsurge in crime and social violence.


Seems pretty clear to me.

irish_bob

d00gle wrote: »

I met a guy the other week, he's opening up two subway shops and believe it or not is having difficulty in getting Irish staff. I couldnt believe this considering the hours are fairly good, dont find many drunks in Subway and he is paying a little over minium wage ie just under €10-00 euro per hour. He says the reason he keeps getting is the dole pays more.......... how can this be?????
Well I found my reason the other day, according to Irish Indo a one earner family with three kids has to earn €55k to beat the equalivilent guy on the dole. This is CRAZY!
I agree there has to be painful cuts, I have no doubt about this, on all sides, (I'm a Garda). Everything has to drop but lets not forget the elephant in the room...... the dole has to drop drastically. This is unfortunate I know, but we're paying everyone and I mean everyone with any connection to the government exchequer too much from the Taoiseach to the dole man/woman. All needs to be cut. When the dole gets cut, only then can the minium wage come down and so on up. This needs to be done across the board.

while the dole is too high , such was the level to which property prices reached , we have thousands of people who having lost thier jobs now rely on the dole to pay mortgages , the elephant in the room IMO is public sector pay , the source of revenue which allowed this country claim the title of europes highest paid public sector is gone and wont be returning , police in this country far out earn thier counterparts in other richer countries , they will have to take a pay cut as will teachers , nurses doctors and of course politicians , public opinion does not support a cut in wellfare and such is the fragile state of the country and while i detest the terms MOST VULNERABLE , i think cutting the dole for people with massive debt could tip us over , ive thought about this a lot in the last week and i believe now is not the time to cut the dole , the public sector will have to give up 1st , leave the dole the way it is for another year or two but by all means tackle wellfare in other area off people who dont need it , my mom for instance gets a widows pension of over 200 quid a week yet the woman has a half a million in the bank, she sold 60 acres of farm land at the height of the boom , people like her should not be on handouts , she has no debt and her kids are all working and shes still only 60

jmayo

irish_bob wrote: »

... my mom for instance gets a widows pension of over 200 quid a week yet the woman has a half a million in the bank, she sold 60 acres of farm land at the height of the boom , people like her should not be on handouts , she has no debt and her kids are all working and shes still only 60

Jeeze bob are you trying to marry her off talking like that.
I know a few builders who could do with a bit of cash injection about now.

irish_bob

jmayo wrote: »

Jeeze bob are you trying to marry her off talking like that.
I know a few builders who could do with a bit of cash injection about now.

ha ha , so much for old = poor eh

hiorta

Wouldn't 'bailing the Irish people out' just reinforce the very selfish thinking that brought all this about?
What's wrong with taking the medicine?