countmeout.ie

branie

have church authorities expressed any concerns about this website?

PDN

I would be concerned only in that they seem somewhat confused.

Which do they want - people to defect from the Catholic Church, or separation of Church and State? The two are entirely different issues.

Helix

PDN wrote: »

Which do they want - people to defect from the Catholic Church, or separation of Church and State? The two are entirely different issues.

they see the former as a means to the latter

the more people who defect the less numbers on the catholic church's books, the less power they would have

in an exceptionally watered down summation

ive to meet with a reverend fintan gavin in the next week or so to confirm my defection, which is a bit of an inconvenience but i suppose its their way of making sure youre not just doing it for the craic which is fair enough

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

I would be concerned only in that they seem somewhat confused.

Which do they want - people to defect from the Catholic Church, or separation of Church and State? The two are entirely different issues.

I think they want the count of "Catholics" to closer reflect actual believers, thus producing a more accurate image of the influence of the Catholic church in Ireland and challenge the view that it has the mandate it once had due to the number of believers

Or something.

crotalus667

Helix wrote: »

ive to meet with a reverend fintan gavin in the next week or so to confirm my defection, which is a bit of an inconvenience but i suppose its their way of making sure youre not just doing it for the craic which is fair enough

Hmmmmm thats not the norm some one having to meet some one to defect , may be they are doing it in an atempt to put people off defecting :rolleyes:

Helix

crotalus667 wrote: »

Hmmmmm thats not the norm some one having to meet some one to defect , may be they are doing it in an atempt to put people off defecting :rolleyes:

some dioceses like to meet people, some dont

im not sure its completely essential, but he requested it in his letter to me, and ive no problem with it so ill pop along and see what he has to say

dvpower

PDN wrote: »

I would be concerned only in that they seem somewhat confused.

Which do they want - people to defect from the Catholic Church, or separation of Church and State? The two are entirely different issues.

Not entirely different. Both are reasonable goals. But the chances of making progress on one are enhanced by making progress on the other.

Coriolanus

Only anecdotal for now, and the fella from countmeout said he'd check into it but apparently the baptismal register is only one of several that's referred to to compile numbers of Catholics.

On a corollary, the head of the site had a discussion with Waters on Tom McGurks show that was worth a listen. Should be on the 4fm site.

wolfsbane

branie wrote: »

have church authorities expressed any concerns about this website?

I'm sure they are concerned, but I haven't read it.

The group give some good reasons for a formal defection:
Church Abuse Scandals - Formally defecting from the Catholic church is one way of letting church authorities know how you feel about these scandals.


Church/State Relations - Formally defecting from the Catholic church sends an unambiguous message that you no longer wish to be counted in a statistic used to justify the church's role in the state's social services.

A Clean Break - Some may argue that simply being a "lapsed" Catholic (i.e. not going to mass, not praying etc.) is enough of a step. There are others that feel this does not go far enough for them, it does not provide the emotional satisfaction they require. Formally defecting from the Catholic church is the best means possible to make a decisive break with the church.

If I were an Irish Catholic, the first two of those would be big factors for me.

philologos

I don't think it's a major threat. It's not a huge number of people who are taking an interest in this kind of thing. I'm of the mindset that the figures are relatively accurate maybe with a margin of 100,000 error for Catholicism.

ocianain

branie wrote: »

have church authorities expressed any concerns about this website?

Let's see we survived, the Arians, Peligians, Luther, Calvin, Good Queen Bess, Cromwell, WWI, WWII, I don't think this web site is on their radar

Coriolanus

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think it's a major threat. It's not a huge number of people who are taking an interest in this kind of thing. I'm of the mindset that the figures are relatively accurate maybe with a margin of 100,000 error for Catholicism.

Depends on who you ask. I thought Il Pape was on record in Version: Ratzinger as saying that "al a Carte Catholics" aren't really Catholics, the church shouldn't claim them and they shouldn't be allowed to claim to be Catholics or something. Something about your status being linked to actions as well as beliefs or along those lines?

Overblood

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm of the mindset that the figures are relatively accurate maybe with a margin of 100,000 error for Catholicism.

Which figures are you talking about? The 2002 census which states that 90% of Ireland's population is catholic? Are you saying that those figures are correct up to a margin of error of 100,000? Would ja goway!

90% of Ireland's poulation is definitely not catholic. I like to ask people about their religion... if I dare! I ask lots of questions. Most times people get offended because I expose their actual non-catholicism, not through criticism, but by asking questions that scream obvious logical connotations and answers which they cannot, or more likely do not want to, answer. They don't want to say the evil words (there is no santa)...

The level of ignorance towards reality out there is astounding.

Here's a sample from one "discussion" I had with a guy (~40yrs old with 2 kids) in work. We were arguing about the creation of the universe, and he was arguing for the case of god. It was his last ditched effort:

Guy at work: Ok, so, the big bang, how the hell are we made out of an explosion? How do you explain that? How are flowers made out of an explosion? And how is the earth round? If I blew up a big rock with a load of C4, would the bits that fly off it be nice and round? NO THEY WOULDN'T! So nya nya!"

I gave up straight after that.

Anyway, the thing is, I had him shaved down to just a bare human that was ignorant of science, ignorant of his own bible, ignorant of catholicism, but yet believed in some sort of creator. The only bit of catholicism that remained was probably that "ontological bond" thing from his baptism.

After telling me that he never goes to mass or he doesn't believe in transubstantiation or jesus's divinity, he doesn't pray or confess, basically he doesn't do jack shit that a catholic is supposed to do, he will still tick the Catholic box on the census. Either that or his wife will tick "catholic", or his mammy will...

"Well you have to believe in something" is what they are winnowed down to. The have zero confidence in catholicism. "Something" is all they believe in. Their catholicism is nothing more than a tradition and a bare belief taken for granted without question. Yet they would still write "catholic" down on the census form because "well I suppose Ireland is a catholic nation, my mammy is catholic, sure feckit I'll throw myself down as catholic." It's as if they think they're a race that can't be changed. "I was born of catholic parents, baptised catholic, I must be catholic."



100,000 margin of error? Nah. They're not really catholics. I'd say a million, but neither of us have evidence so....

And check this out:

According to a survey conducted by the Catholic Bishops Conference, 63 percent of the 3.46 million Roman Catholics in the country attended mass once a week

Is there really room for 2,200,000 arses in the churches of Ireland?

ocianain

So people who identify themselves as Catholic really don't know they are not? You argue you know better then themselves what Faith they are? Kind of bold of you don't you think? And yes, I would hazard there is enough room for all those arses, I would imagine each church celebrates more than one Mass each Sunday.

ocianain

What is your explanation for the Big Bang by the way? Your co-worker confronted you with the problem of First Cause, no phenomena can create itself, it must have a creator. Even the BB. If you want to reply on another thread that would be cool

Stercus Accidit

Is catholicism then less about true belief in its faith, the divinity of the creator, and the eternal heaven reward for doing what it says in the good book, and more about a numbers game?


If countmeout.ie helps non-catholics take themselves off the catholic registers, isn't that a good thing?

Don't catholics want a true reflection of the numbers of their true believers, rather than a figure large enough to bludgeon their morality on the people politically?


People who don't pray, who don't attend confession, who don't believe in any of the bibles teachings, but only consider themselves catholic by birth, as though it were the defining point, they aren't getting into heaven, they aren't true believers but just babies with water splashed on them who grew up to be normal human beings. I mean, these people will tick the catholic box in the census, they will call themselves catholic and maintain your numbers, losing numbers of people who legitimately don't believe in your god is the least of your loss, if the apathetic free style catholics keep ticking your box on the form, and are considered valid followers of your faith and teachings.


Surely, providing an opt out website such as countmeout.ie is a good thing, I mean, you don't want to claim members by not giving them any choice in the matter, right?

Stercus Accidit

ocianain wrote: »

What is your explanation for the Big Bang by the way? Your co-worker confronted you with the problem of First Cause, no phenomena can create itself, it must have a creator. Even the BB. If you want to reply on another thread that would be cool

Who created god?

Apply your own logic to your own statement, and it will get nowhere.

What you put forward is a self defeating argument.

ocianain

Stercus Accidit wrote: »

Is catholicism then less about true belief in its faith, the divinity of the creator, and the eternal heaven reward for doing what it says in the good book, and more about a numbers game?

No. I don't see how one could even posit this. Remember the reformation? It was all about true belief. It's just that outside of someone starting a revolution in Bohemia or Germany it's next to impossible to read the heart of another.

If countmeout.ie helps non-catholics take themselves off the catholic registers, isn't that a good thing?

I don't see how a non-Catholic can get on the register. Don't register at the parish and your not on any "list" the premise of the site is flawed, anyone could register (which is probably the purpose of it) any number of times. It's bogus through and through.

Don't catholics want a true reflection of the numbers of their true believers, rather than a figure large enough to bludgeon their morality on the people politically?

The bias inherent in your question is obvious, and rather shocking for the 21st century I might add. Why wouldn't agitating for making a Protestant/secular sensibility the dominant view be viewed as "bludgeoning their morality on the people politically?"

People who don't pray, who don't attend confession, who don't believe in any of the bibles teachings, but only consider themselves catholic by birth, as though it were the defining point, they aren't getting into heaven, they aren't true believers but just babies with water splashed on them who grew up to be normal human beings. I mean, these people will tick the catholic box in the census, they will call themselves catholic and maintain your numbers, losing numbers of people who legitimately don't believe in your god is the least of your loss, if the apathetic free style catholics keep ticking your box on the form, and are considered valid followers of your faith and teachings.

You know alot about people, judging their heart and knowing the are not going to Heaven and all, who gave you that authority, that power? Are you God? If not, you are in a serious need of humility. Protestantism continues to fracture into smaller and smaller sects, the last I saw there were some 40,000 Bible only Churches, ever wonder why? Are there 40,000 different TRUTHS? I don't think so, perhaps instead of pointing out the splinter in someone elses eye you should be removing the log from your own? That is, put your own house in order.

Surely, providing an opt out website such as countmeout.ie is a good thing, I mean, you don't want to claim members by not giving them any choice in the matter, right?

You make the Church sound like the Mafia, it's really pretty easy, if one doesn't want to be Catholic, go to another Church, the corrollary would be, if one doesn't go to another Church, one doesn't want to. Catholics are a family, I'm unaware of any familiy with unwavering unity. Protestants certainly don't have it.

Stercus Accidit

ocianain wrote: »

No. I don't see how one could even posit this. Remember the reformation? It was all about true belief. It's just that outside of someone starting a revolution in Bohemia or Germany it's next to impossible to read the heart of another.

This whole thread is about the "threat" a website offering advice on how to leave your church poses, why is the choice a threat to true believers unless it is a numbers game?

I don't see how a non-Catholic can get on the register. Don't register at the parish and your not on any "list" the premise of the site is flawed, anyone could register (which is probably the purpose of it) any number of times. It's bogus through and through.

ROFL.

You splash infants heads with water and declare them catholic before they can even walk, and brainwash them right up until they leave school.
Some people having been subjected to this still manage to think for themselves, and want to leave your church. How does a non-believer get on the register? By systematically indoctrinating infants of course.

The bias inherent in your question is obvious, and rather shocking for the 21st century I might add. Why wouldn't agitating for making a Protestant/secular sensibility the dominant view be viewed as "bludgeoning their morality on the people politically?"

The catholic church has had political influence over this country for many years, how in the 21st century you find this acceptable is shocking.

You know alot about people, judging their heart and knowing the are not going to Heaven and all, who gave you that authority, that power? Are you God? If not, you are in a serious need of humility. Protestantism continues to fracture into smaller and smaller sects, the last I saw there were some 40,000 Bible only Churches, ever wonder why? Are there 40,000 different TRUTHS? I don't think so, perhaps instead of pointing out the splinter in someone elses eye you should be removing the log from your own? That is, put your own house in order.

Yeah, I'm God. This is what YOUR religion teaches, no less this forum. Don't believe in/worship our god, go to hell. It is one of the fundamental teachings of your religion. There have been threads on this very subject on this very forum, this is one of the fundamental teachings of your religion.

You make the Church sound like the Mafia, it's really pretty easy, if one doesn't want to be Catholic, go to another Church, the corrollary would be, if one doesn't go to another Church, one doesn't want to. Catholics are a family, I'm unaware of any familiy with unwavering unity. Protestants certainly don't have it.

Another church? How about no church, and a total disregard for religion. People who were baptised, ie, forced to join the church against their will, and then never attend again and don't believe in your god, they are still on catholic numbers lists, used as a way to measure the importance and influence of the catholic church.

ocianain

I see I struck a nerve. Here comes more, on the one hand you posit the Catholic Church as this all powerful, evil institution, on the other hand you believe it may be threatened by some band width? Does this make sense? Of course not.

Infant baptism has been the norm for 20 centuries, even longer as it follows on the Jewish rite of circumcision (which had to be done before the 8th day). This is how one entered the Jewish covenant, under the Christian covenant all were covered (obviously only males were circumcised). I take it you're against infant baptism? Given your tendency to demand conformity of thought (as seen in the above post), I take it you're a Calvinist?

The C of E has influence in England, the Queens the head of it, does this offend you? Do you rail against it? I think I smell hypocrisy.

I assure you, my religion does not teach you are God. It is not a fundamental teaching of my religion. Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When I want to know the foundational beliefs of a faith, I read the documents, read Luthers, Bondage of the Will (hated it), Calvins Institutes (hated it more), read some of the Wesley brothers stuff (some good stuff there), pretty familiar with the land grab the English try to pass of as a spiritual reformation. What have you read about Catholicism from Catholic perspective. Nothing I'm sure. You probably gobble up the rantings of your Catholic hating preacher as the TRUTH. Too bad.

How about starting a Protestant numbers list, that way we can take off all the non-believing Protestants that inflate that list! That log is still in the way

Stercus Accidit

ocianain wrote: »

I see I struck a nerve. Here comes more, on the one hand you posit the Catholic Church as this all powerful, evil institution, on the other hand you believe it may be threatened by some band width? Does this make sense? Of course not.

Um, I am a proponent of the countmeout.ie website, it is a GOOD thing that people have the information at hand to be able to leave an institution they want no part of.

You have really very badly mis-read what has been posted here.

Infant baptism has been the norm for 20 centuries, even longer as it follows on the Jewish rite of circumcision (which had to be done before the 8th day). This is how one entered the Jewish covenant, under the Christian covenant all were covered (obviously only males were circumcised). I take it you're against infant baptism? Given your tendency to demand conformity of thought (as seen in the above post), I take it you're a Calvinist?

The indoctrination of infants into a religion is reprehensible no matter what faith it is. And I preferred the fresh prince to Calvin anyway.

The C of E has influence in England, the Queens the head of it, does this offend you? Do you rail against it? I think I smell hypocrisy.

Poor sense of smell. Why would I care about England in particular, regardless, I don't want to see any church in a position of influence over a country, where on earth did you get that idea? Serious cognitive reading issues here, read my posts, imagine I am pro-secular for a moment, does it make more sense?

I assure you, my religion does not teach you are God. It is not a fundamental teaching of my religion. Have you read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. When I want to know the foundational beliefs of a faith, I read the documents, read Luthers, Bondage of the Will (hated it), Calvins Institutes (hated it more), read some of the Wesley brothers stuff (some good stuff there), pretty familiar with the land grab the English try to pass of as a spiritual reformation. What have you read about Catholicism from Catholic perspective. Nothing I'm sure. You probably gobble up the rantings of your Catholic hating preacher as the TRUTH. Too bad.

How about starting a Protestant numbers list, that way we can take off all the non-believing Protestants that inflate that list! That log is still in the way

I'm ignoring this whole ramble on the assumption you haven't a clue where I'm coming from, and haven't understood a word (well maybe a few choice phrases out of context) that I have written.

JamesTaylorfan

Ya see, it's like this....first there was nothing.....and then it exploded.....roight?

PDN

I suggest posters try to stay on topic. This thread is about the countmeout website. Any more off topic ranting and I'll lock the thread.

Stercus Accidit

Edit: as above

Any way, the countmeout.ie website provides information on how to leave the church formally if you so choose.

That cannot be construed as a bad thing, the facilitation of choice.

countmeout.ie (Paul)

Hi there, I am one of the founders of the site. Been posting in and around these threads since the site went live. I'd like to just address some of the points raised.

branie wrote: »

have church authorities expressed any concerns about this website?

I wouldn't say they are that worried. However, officials from the church have been very reluctant to comment at all on the site. On the original Sunday Times article which kinda 'broke' our site, Martin Long (Catholic Communications Officer) declined to comment on the site. Furthermore, officials and members of clergy have not been very forthcoming when asked to enter into a debate with us on radio/TV.

PDN wrote: »

I would be concerned only in that they seem somewhat confused.

Which do they want - people to defect from the Catholic Church, or separation of Church and State? The two are entirely different issues.

We are not confused. In Ireland, defecting from the church, and separating the church from the state are inextricably linked.

Nevore wrote: »

Only anecdotal for now, and the fella from countmeout said he'd check into it but apparently the baptismal register is only one of several that's referred to to compile numbers of Catholics.

What we're coming to realise is that the census figures are what really matters. Granted, defecting can provide a kind of 'emotional' satisfaction to those who want out of the church, but it has no tangible bearing, it's symbolic. That's the reason I defected anyway. One possibility of our future work might be a campaign centred on the census.

Jakkass wrote: »

I don't think it's a major threat. It's not a huge number of people who are taking an interest in this kind of thing. I'm of the mindset that the figures are relatively accurate maybe with a margin of 100,000 error for Catholicism.

You're right, it's not a major threat. But to suggest that the numbers of estimated Catholics in Ireland is accurate to a margin of error of 100,000 is, quite frankly, laughable.

ocianain wrote: »

I don't see how a non-Catholic can get on the register. Don't register at the parish and your not on any "list" the premise of the site is flawed, anyone could register (which is probably the purpose of it) any number of times. It's bogus through and through.

This point was tackled fairly well by another poster, but i'd also like to address it. "Don't register at the parish"??? Could you tell me how a months old infant can register their protest at being baptised??? And on the issue of the number of people who have downloaded our defection forms: I would argue that this number is far more accurate than the aforementioned '100,000' margin of error for Catholic membership!

Finally, if I can clear something else up: countmeout.ie has no issue with Catholic faith. We do have an issue with the institution of the Catholic church. If I was a Catholic I would feel immeasurably saddened, angry and let down by the actions of the hierarchy over the years. I would love to see a groundswell of movement within the church which would attempt to right all the wrongs which have been committed. The aloofness and attitude of being beyond reproach continues to this very day:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0725/1224251304942.html

Thanks for reading.

philologos

Overblood wrote: »

Which figures are you talking about? The 2002 census which states that 90% of Ireland's population is catholic? Are you saying that those figures are correct up to a margin of error of 100,000? Would ja goway!

The 2006 census says that 86% of the population are Catholic or at least nominally so. I pretty much think that's accurate. There are about 250,000 humanists. I'd say there could be 350,000 humanists but not much more. That's actually a 4% percentage change from 2002 to 2006. So yeah I think it's reasonably accurate.

I think that the figures are not dramatically different. I mean look at that site. If many more Irish Catholics wanted to defect from the church they would have filled out a form and sent it.

So far 1721 people have filled out a form. Including myself, a non-Catholic to see how it worked. Therefore I don't count, bringing it down to 1720. No doubt many thought of the idea and didn't even send away the form. 1720 is not dramatic at all even if they all sent it which again I doubt.

Overblood wrote: »

The level of ignorance towards reality out there is astounding.

Ignorance in your opinion.

Overblood wrote: »

Anyway, the thing is, I had him shaved down to just a bare human that was ignorant of science, ignorant of his own bible, ignorant of catholicism, but yet believed in some sort of creator. The only bit of catholicism that remained was probably that "ontological bond" thing from his baptism.

Yes, he was at least nominally Catholic. That's the best figure we can get through censuses and other things.

Overblood wrote: »

After telling me that he never goes to mass or he doesn't believe in transubstantiation or jesus's divinity, he doesn't pray or confess, basically he doesn't do jack shit that a catholic is supposed to do, he will still tick the Catholic box on the census. Either that or his wife will tick "catholic", or his mammy will...

He is at least nominally Catholic. You don't need to pass a test to consider yourself Catholic.

Overblood wrote: »

100,000 margin of error? Nah. They're not really catholics. I'd say a million, but neither of us have evidence so....

There is probably 100,000 extra people who wouldn't at least nominally accept themselves as being Catholic. We can all put arbitrary standards on what it means to be a Catholic, but it is up to the people to identify themselves as they wish. I'd say that the difference of people who identify themselves as Catholic, and those who don't at least nominally isn't very different from 2006.

Overblood wrote: »

Is there really room for 2,200,000 arses in the churches of Ireland?

There are over 200 Catholic parishes in the Dublin Diocese of the Catholic Church. I'd assume that there is enough room elsewhere also. Although the most recent figures we have suggest that 48% of Catholics attend church at least once a week or certainly the most recent I've read.

PDN

If any of those nominal Catholics do anything nasty or evil then you can bet that Overblood etc will fall over themselves to argue that they are real Catholics and that their behaviour is an argument against Christianity - blah blah blah - yawn.

Overblood

PDN wrote: »

If any of those nominal Catholics do anything nasty or evil then you can bet that Overblood etc will fall over themselves to argue that they are real Catholics and that their behaviour is an argument against Christianity - blah blah blah - yawn.

If they do something evil in the name of god or catholicism then of course I would.

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

If any of those nominal Catholics do anything nasty or evil then you can bet that Overblood etc will fall over themselves to argue that they are real Catholics and that their behaviour is an argument against Christianity - blah blah blah - yawn.

And equally all the Christians will be falling over themselves to tell us that they aren't real Christians ... blah blah blah Fred Phelps .. yawn :P

philologos

Overblood wrote: »

If they do something evil in the name of god or catholicism then of course I would.

Yet on the other hand, you'd cite it as something that religion caused, and how religion is evil / to the detriment of society if you got the chance. Make your mind up

Wicknight: Fred Phelps is at least nominally a Christian, however he doesn't show much signs of it being genuine through what he has shown us (i.e his fruits)

Just to make my point clear:
I think the number of Catholics who are at least nominally so is accurate.
I do not think that this number reflects the number who are actively a part of their respective churches.

Ciaran500

Jakkass wrote: »

The 2006 census says that 86% of the population are Catholic or at least nominally so. I pretty much think that's accurate.

Those figures are not accurate. My dad filled in our cencus and put down my mother, brother and me as catholic and none of us believe in god. Same story in my friends house and I seriously doubt these are isolated cases.