Bord Snip report

Ostrom

Considering my ass both present and future is potentially on the line (and your security next year), I'm going over the detailed paper on education and science.

Currently, 77% of the allocated 9.5 billion budget goes on payroll and pension. 746 million in savings is proposed through cuts across all levels, with first level bearing the bulk at 311 million, the proposed third level cuts amount to about 261 million

Of the 6900 sought staff reductions, they are proposing a cut of 2000 special needs assistants, and 1000 english language support teachers. Ideal TPR is to be increased to 29:1 from an 'ideal' of 16 through regional amalgamations.

They have also recommended an immediate abolition of the National University of Ireland, so there may have been some truth in the amalgamation myth doing the rounds. The immediate return of fees is also recommened.

Third level savings so far are in increasing staffing efficiency and outsourcing admin - no re-hiring of retiring staff

From report appendices:

Re-Introduction of Third Level Fees

In addition to the efficiency actions outlined above, the Group is of the view that third level fees
should be re-introduced to provide a sustainable funding stream for third level education which
would relieve the existing burden on the Exchequer. The existing free fees scheme subsidises the
education of students from high earning socio-economic groups e.g. it is estimated that 28% of freefees covers students from households with income in excess of €80,000. The continued rationale for this subsidy to be payable to those households which have the ability to pay for third level education is open to question. Furthermore, the scale of the budgetary crisis facing the Exchequer points to the need for tuition fees to help fund third level institutions.

banquo

It's pure balls.

More on this later.

Ostrom

banquo wrote: »

It's pure balls.

More on this later.

It pales in comparison to what they're about to do to primary. I swear to god if I see one anti-fees campaign I'm grabbing the hurley. These are the things people should be hitting the streets for. The school bus charge alone could be going up to 500*

*Remember also these are, for the moment, recommendations

mp3guy

efla wrote: »

They have also recommended an immediate abolition of the National University of Ireland

wat.

jane says

The existing free fees scheme subsidises the education of students from high earning socio-economic groups e.g. it is estimated that 28% of free fees covers students from households with income in excess of €80,000. The continued rationale for this subsidy to be payable to those households which have the ability to pay for third level education is open to question. Furthermore, the scale of the budgetary crisis facing the Exchequer points to the need for tuition fees to help fund third level institutions.

Although this is way too late, this should be one of the least problematic of the snips. It is hard to argue against it.

barleybooley

jane says wrote: »

Although this is way too late, this should be one of the least problematic of the snips. It is hard to argue against it.

Absolutely, it should be more of a sliding scale rather than it being black and white with immediate financial situation of parents taken into account rather than the income of the past year, it's amazing how quickly things go belly up for some families with illness, redundancy or whatever.

On the bright side for guys, it's not group wanting to force circumcision which is what the name suggests to my warped brain :pac:

Beau

From what I know so far I think a lot of the proposals are reasonable and realistic.

I'd be very concerned about the 2000 job cuts in special need teachers (not so much on the english language support teachers as they are not that much needed anymore) and the abolition of the capitation for primary schools.

What does it mean for the NUI to be discontinued, I don't understand that?

As elfa says these are only proposals, the governement are looking for over 3billion in cuts from this report, not the 5.7billion that is recommended so there is wiggle room to disregard ridiculous cuts.

They weren't allowed include pay cuts by the way.

Dont forget we are cutting a total of 20 billion approx over a few years,
so each year we need to make these cuts of several billions!!

Fees will be back it seems its just a matter of how they are paid, upfront or as a loan or as a tax afterwards.

Those thinking of doing the H-Dip and secondary teaching consider this:
http://www.independent.ie/education/latest-news/school-receives-1200-applications-for-one-temporary-position-1824425.html?r=RSS

A PRIMARY school received 1,200 applications for a single temporary job in the starkest example yet of the scale of the unemployment crisis looming for young teachers.

"Within an hour or two we had a couple of dozen email applications. Within two days, it got to the stage where the postman literally couldn't carry the volume of mail to the school. He would come in and say: 'I have as much of that again'. We had over 800 postal applications."

and this:

http://www.educationposts.ie/

Primary vacancies advertised: 213
Second level vacancies advertised: 13
Third level vacancies advertised: 0
Job seekers registered: 7,023

funky penguin

/me grabs passport

Ostrom

The NUI board doesn't really do anything anymore, and eats up about 3 million each year. Degree awards bodies, of which the NUI is one, are set to be amalgamated under HETAC. Beyond that, as you can see in the report, the NUI only serves as a seanad constituency registrar

bug

efla wrote: »

The NUI board doesn't really do anything anymore, and eats up about 3 million each year. Degree awards bodies, of which the NUI is one, are set to be amalgamated under HETAC. Beyond that, as you can see in the report, the NUI only serves as a seanad constituency registrar

So essentially they are proposing getting rid of the "federation" as such, rather than the actual Universities...
Good God for a while there I thought there they were forcing more students to travel to Dublin for University, can't see why they would do that...oh...wait...

And this on PRTLI " the lack of verifiable economic benefits resulting from these investments and the inflationary impact of funding
on research and administration salaries"

"there is insufficient evidence of the positive economic impact of
the programme to date. Subject to any contractual commitments, this cycle should be cancelled."

Knowledge based economy was supposed to save us all wasn't it?

Just because they themselves didn't measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Ostrom

bug wrote: »

So essentially they are proposing getting rid of the "federation" as such, rather than the actual Universities...
Good God for a while there I thought there they were forcing more students to travel to Dublin for University, can't see why they would do that...oh...wait...

And this on PRTLI " the lack of verifiable economic benefits resulting from these investments and the inflationary impact of funding
on research and administration salaries"

"there is insufficient evidence of the positive economic impact of
the programme to date. Subject to any contractual commitments, this cycle should be cancelled."

Knowledge based economy was supposed to save us all wasn't it?

Just because they themselves didn't measure it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

They're applying the same rationale across all departments. The PRTLI can perform the same functions under SFI with a fraction of the admin costs. I think part of the justification for scaling down research funding is down to emigration of graduates, and the inability for future fourth level grads to be absorbed into the jobs market. If you look to the detailed report appendices, they recommend a higher proportion of government funding go through IRCSET also, so its not all bad news (unless you're in a department of social sciences....)

As to the NUI, I would imagine some sort of DCU/NUIM merger is on the cards. All they seems to do anymore is award honorary doctorates

bug

efla wrote: »

They're applying the same rationale across all departments. The PRTLI can perform the same functions under SFI with a fraction of the admin costs. I think part of the justification for scaling down research funding is down to emigration of graduates, and the inability for future fourth level grads to be absorbed into the jobs market. If you look to the detailed report appendices, they recommend a higher proportion of government funding go through IRCSET also, so its not all bad news (unless you're in a department of social sciences....)

As to the NUI, I would imagine some sort of DCU/NUIM merger is on the cards. All they seems to do anymore is award honorary doctorates

I'm sorry I just don't equate PRTLI to SFI. PRTLI was, (and we might as well say was), much more far reaching and productive educationally than SFI, from an education and research point of view, it was consolidating, and including, SFI is all PI and his/her minions. Even to the point where the report says, it housed and supported SFI as well as other research areas.
That's just my opinion though - I find it very sad personally.

Ostrom

bug wrote: »

I'm sorry I just don't equate PRTLI to SFI. PRTLI was, (and we might as well say was), much more far reaching and productive educationally than SFI, from an education and research point of view, it was consolidating, and including, SFI is all PI and his/her minions. Even to the point where the report says, it housed and supported SFI as well as other research areas.
That's just my opinion though - I find it very sad personally.

When they said bend over, they meant it

PrivateEye

Having given this a look on the Newstalk site for a good while today, where it is broken down department by department, my initial thoughts were.

*Education suffers again, but no where more so than at Primary Level once more. Along with the idea of closing rural schools (which is insane) it looks like travel-costs for schoolchildren would rise, and something in the region of 6,000 jobs could go at that level alone. Dire. The special needs cuts are an especially hard pill to swallow.


*Rural-Ireland will take a hit. Unusual move for Fianna Fail. While us Croissant Types in Dublin did basically eliminate the party at a Local level, rural Ireland was a lot kinder. Fair enough they took a hit, but the damage was at least repairable. Reccomending the axing of bus routes, railways, schools and even Garda Stations is insane. The last one in particular will be taken to heart no doubt. The cuts to sports-funding is another one that has a far heavier effect on rural Ireland.

All economic thinking, no social thinking. One can't really work without the other when it comes to such a report, hurr durr. Political suicide if they do it.

*Water Charges. They now look very, very likely. Judging by the resistance to the last bin-tax (in a 'boom') I think this would be highly likely to mark the start of any kind of 'fight back', not least with somebody like Joe Higgins at the forefront. A terrible move, but I think community activism is the likely outcome.

*There's a bit of what Siptu wanted in their 'Alternative Plan' included, for example in relation to private education. Its nowhere near enough, the fact is well over 60% of the cuts this report suggets are in relation to social welfare payments.

*Third Level Education:What a mess here. Not just for the students, but education workers too. Last year with the FEE stuff bar Kieran Allen out in UCD it didn't really seem like the so called 'back room storms' were going on. I'd be very interested in seeing what happens when both students and staff are of the same-mind, recent-examples in Spain and France come to mind were university strikes were not alone supported by students, but actively participated in. I agree with efla on the DCU/NUIM merger, my first thoughts too.

*The pensioners again? Really? This is where it starts to look like IBEC on
the warpath. The first people that stood up take another blow....

---

Look at the people that put this report together. A former partner from PriceWaterhouseCopper and a former Dept. CEO of the HSE? The very people who have escaped 'the pain we have to share' have, in a very bizarre way, almost left their fingerprints on this report.

The initial reactions I've got from people generally seem the same. My fathers Dublin Fire Brigade and they were already extremely close to breaking point, I imagine its a toss-up between themselves, the teachers unions and another 'Grey Revolution'

See you on the barricades and all that ^^

Beau

Nobody likes to see things getting cut but unfortunatley this government increased spending exponentially during the boom years, which only could be financed if those boom years continued. We are borrowing €400 million a week! Thats €55 million a day, all at 2% interest. We can't afford everything we are spending so therefore we have to look at ways to cut that however hard it is to swallow. Education, Health and Social Welfare account for over 2/3 of the governments expenditure, if you are going to cut expenditure its unrealistic for these not to be included.

I wouldn't call closing rural schools insane to be honest. A lot of these schools are in little villages and cater for a small number of students. Usually there are other schools available not so far away. Same with Garda Stations, a lot of these rural stations only open for a few hours a day and it has to be asked, is the value they bring to the community worth the cost? As for third level, its about time it got reformed and what this report focuses on is the cost of non academic staff (e.g. admin). Social welfare is being cut by 5%, It was increased in January by 3% in line with a predicted inflation rate, however that real inflation figure looks to be a minus. Situations like http://www.independent.ie/national-news/it-can-pay-to-stay-at-home---836442000-a-year-to-be-precise-1826386.html need to be stopped as its getting less and less attractive to actually go out and work.

I'd just be worried that so many small interest groups will fight their corner that it will paralyse the government from actually taking any decisions to fix this mess.

I think we can forget about that NAMA idea. No chance we can afford that and not go bankrupt!

banquo

I'd gladly pay fees if it meant that primary schools and special needs teachers were left untouched.

There are far too few special needs teachers as it is.

DeirdreD

Just to clarify it is not the special needs teachers but special needs assistants whose numbers are suggested to be cut. In general terms the SNA acts in a care and support role that is non-teaching in nature and works under the guidance and supervision of the Principal and/or class teacher.

Furthermore I would agree with concerns as to the cost effectiveness of small rural schools, even this week I see an advertisment for a teacher in a school with only 53 pupils yet it employs 5 teachers !!(http://www.educationposts.com/primary/employee/searchvacancies2.php?id=16852&county1=Cork&type1=All%20categories%20of%20posts&status1=Any%20Status)

banquo

That might be

1x janitor
1x principal
1x VP
2x Teachers

if there ARE five teachers, than that's a disgrace.

DeirdreD

I think it is 3 teachers , a resource teacher and a learning support teacher. But could stand corrected.

DeirdreD

DeirdreD wrote: »

I think it is 3 teachers , a resource teacher and a learning support teacher. But could stand corrected.

I mean 3 classroom teachers, a resource teacher and a learning support teacher.

Meanwhile some schools have classes of over 30!!

banquo

banquo wrote: »

I'd gladly pay fees if it meant that primary schools and special needs teachers were left untouched.

There are far too few special needs teachers as it is.

nah I wouldnt pay them *gladly* until it was sure the money wouldnt be going to bail out developers and banks through NAMA :mad:

jane says

PrivateEye wrote: »

Along with the idea of closing rural schools (which is insane) it looks like travel-costs for schoolchildren would rise, and something in the region of 6,000 jobs could go at that level alone. Dire. The special needs cuts are an especially hard pill to swallow.

I'm not sure. In the area where I came from there could have easily have been mergers without any disruption. I don't see what the problem could be really (some of these schools were pretty poor and under-resourced compared to the larger one - and would have benefited from these after a merger). There must be a lot of duplication of resources too.

Special needs - agreed.

Effluo

It seems that the most likely way that we're going to pay fees is through Austraila's and New Zealand's format.

30k for an engineering degree
20k for a science degree
10k for a lowly Arts degree(chuckle)

Listen to this though!
We don't have to pay until after we've completed the course and our wage level goes over a certain point! Which in fairness sounds pretty reasonable to me???

Although it seems like the gov need money NOW!!! So i don't know how that's gonna work...

banquo

Effluo wrote: »

10k for a lowly Arts degree(chuckle)

/Jumps up from chair, punches air

K4t

10k for an arts degree? That's taking the piss.

pakblue

Effluo wrote: »

30k for an engineering degree
20k for a science degree

So will us 'Computer Science and Software Engineering' students have to pay €50,000

Effluo

pakblue wrote: »

So will us 'Computer Science and Software Engineering' students have to pay €50,000

Most definately!!!

pisslips

To me it makes more sense that NUIM would amalgamate with UCD. I've always seen it as an extension of UCD really.

Also, I think one of the main reasons people choose to go to NUIM is because it is an NUI, therefore the degrees have to be of equal status to UCD,UCC,NUIG.

Like, maybe this sounds bad but when I left school my choice was between NUIM,UCD and Trinity for that reason and because they're in the Dublin area. There was zero chance I would ever have gone to DCU or DIT or UL, absolutely none if I'm honest.

But I guess hetac supercedes NUI now then.

jaydoubleyoubee

pisslips wrote: »

I've always seen it as an extension of UCD really

How so?

NoSummer

Hi I find all this crying out about cuts kinda childish.
Either we make cuts to make our system more efficient or we increase taxes.
Nobody seems to want cuts and nobody wants higher taxes. Ye cant have your cake and eat it.

jaydoubleyoubee

What's the point in having a cake if you can't eat it.

Plus the government has been telling all the people in the secondary school system for the last 6 to 12 years that they would have free third level education.

Essentially the governments saying, "Remember that cake we gave you a few years ago? Well we're kind of going to need that back, oh and the plastic forks and paper plates it came with. Oh you already ate it? Well that's not our fault, you're going to have to bake us a new cake, now."

Ostrom

pisslips wrote: »

To me it makes more sense that NUIM would amalgamate with UCD. I've always seen it as an extension of UCD really.

Also, I think one of the main reasons people choose to go to NUIM is because it is an NUI, therefore the degrees have to be of equal status to UCD,UCC,NUIG.

Like, maybe this sounds bad but when I left school my choice was between NUIM,UCD and Trinity for that reason and because they're in the Dublin area. There was zero chance I would ever have gone to DCU or DIT or UL, absolutely none if I'm honest.

But I guess hetac supercedes NUI now then.

UCD are already tied to Trinity with the innovation alliance

the_syco

Bringing fee's back will also lessen the amount of teachers needed, as not so many people will afford the education. We became a country of knowledge due to the free education, but now that people wil have to pay fee's, there'll be less going to college, and the knowledge ecomony won'be as strong here anymore, me thinks.

jane says

the_syco wrote: »

Bringing fee's back will also lessen the amount of teachers needed, as not so many people will afford the education. We became a country of knowledge due to the free education, but now that people wil have to pay fee's, there'll be less going to college, and the knowledge ecomony won'be as strong here anymore, me thinks.

A country of knowledge, not including knowledge of punctuation methinks.

jane says

pisslips wrote: »

To me it makes more sense that NUIM would amalgamate with UCD. I've always seen it as an extension of UCD really.

Huh? They are completely separate.

pisslips

OH yeah I forgot to make that point. What I meant was I don't see any reason for an amalgamation of any universities, I mean why? if they're miles apart anyway.
But I'm saying that if there was, I would have thought UCD and not DCU, just since both are the two NUI's in the Dublin area.

Realistically there's probably a one in a million chance that that would happen(I didn't bring it up).

theredletter

DCU is not an NUI:

http://www.nui.ie/college/admissions.asp

UCD and NUIM are already connected through the NUI system. UCD have taken a few steps away from NUI in recent years but it is still officially an NUI constituent.

I've heard talk recently of a new type of NUI that would joine DIT, DCU and NUIM to tackle UCD and Trinity's competition. DCU would offer medicine and sciences, DIT would offer business and other subjects like it and NUIM would offer Arts and Social Sciences. It would be one huge DIT.. Not a good idea imo.

Ostrom

theredletter wrote: »

DCU is not an NUI:

http://www.nui.ie/college/admissions.asp

UCD and NUIM are already connected through the NUI system. UCD have taken a few steps away from NUI in recent years but it is still officially an NUI constituent.

I've heard talk recently of a new type of NUI that would joine DIT, DCU and NUIM to tackle UCD and Trinity's competition. DCU would offer medicine and sciences, DIT would offer business and other subjects like it and NUIM would offer Arts and Social Sciences. It would be one huge DIT.. Not a good idea imo.

Agreed, but there is little need for the NUI in its present form, and as more productive alliances form with non-NUI institutions, it seems inevitable that it will not survive

mickstupp

Forgive my ignorance, but what would ditching the NUI actually mean for us Joe Soaps in college? What would change?

theredletter

I can't be too sure on this but I do know that the NUI is funded through fees, so there would be a small drop in fees (but this would probably be insignificant, right?).

The other thing is there would also be more competition between NUIM, UCD, UCC and NUIG as they are bound through the NUI system. NUI Maynooth would then have to be more competitive in attracting student numbers. If Maynooth University wasn't an NUI, as it stands, I would think that a lot of the 2009 graduating class wouldn't have attended... Me included. NUI has given it a legitimate status and a good way of detatching itself from St. Pat's. If the NUI is taken away from Maynooth University I'm not sure how well it would do on it's own and without the NUI support... But again I'm not sure on that.

NUI is a good thing in that it creates a degree standard. There is a standard NUI Arts Degree. If you do an Arts degree in either Galway, Cork, UCD or Maynooth it is generally still the same degree just from another institution. Take that NUI status away and they have to be differentiated some how...

Thoughts?

Ostrom

mickstupp wrote: »

Forgive my ignorance, but what would ditching the NUI actually mean for us Joe Soaps in college? What would change?

I cant see it happening on the back of this. The report is simply an extensive menu with many optional extras. Nothing would happen directly to us since award accreditation is now removed - to be honest I'm a bit cynical about the need for senior admin at that level

pisslips

theredletter wrote: »

DCU is not an NUI:

http://www.nui.ie/college/admissions.asp

UCD and NUIM are already connected through the NUI system. UCD have taken a few steps away from NUI in recent years but it is still officially an NUI constituent.

I've heard talk recently of a new type of NUI that would joine DIT, DCU and NUIM to tackle UCD and Trinity's competition. DCU would offer medicine and sciences, DIT would offer business and other subjects like it and NUIM would offer Arts and Social Sciences. It would be one huge DIT.. Not a good idea imo.

hence NOT D.C.U., do I speak a different language?