How do you explain the Knock apparitions?

cjbh

For those who don't know, here is a link explaining the story, and some suggested explanations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine

So do you think a projector could be the answer to this phenomenon? Do you think the people of 19th century rural Ireland would be that naive and gullible to be fooled by a prank (the apparition lasted for hours, I believe)?

Zillah

cjbh wrote: »

Do you think the people of 19th century rural Ireland would be that naive and gullible to be fooled by a prank (the apparition lasted for hours, I believe)?

You realise there are people worshiping a tree stump in Limerick at this very moment, right?

Tim Robbins

cjbh wrote: »

For those who don't know, here is a link explaining the story, and some suggested explanations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine

So do you think a projector could be the answer to this phenomenon? Do you think the people of 19th century rural Ireland would be that naive and gullible to be fooled by a prank (the apparition lasted for hours, I believe)?

How do you explain 0.5 million claims of UFO sightings in the US since the second world war? (Source: Carl Sagan, Deamon haunted world).

Genghiz Cohen

Swamp gas from a weather balloon was trapped in a thermal pocket and reflected the light from Venus.

Coriolanus

Tim Robbins wrote: »

How do you explain 0.5 million claims of UFO sightings in the US since the second world war? (Source: Carl Sagan, Deamon haunted world).

I came into this thread with the express purpose of plugging that book. It's amazing. That, and Bad Science should be required reading in First Year imo.

Sonderval

Yes, both excellent books. I have misplaced my Sagan books

5uspect

Didn't ze Germans use projectors to project holy figures onto the sky during WWI?
Perhaps Knock was a testing ground?

Flamed Diving

Could you explain the phenomenon of alias with very low post counts, coming onto the A&A forum with ludicrous propositions and never returning to respond?

Paparazzo

I reckon they put the wrong mushrooms into their stew that day.

Bridget Trench "went in immediately to kiss, as I thought, the feet of the Blessed Virgin; but I felt nothing in the embrace but the wall, and I wondered why I could not feel with my hands the figures which I had so plainly and so distinctly seen"

Dades

Flamed Diving wrote: »

Could you explain the phenomenon of alias with very low post counts, coming onto the A&A forum with ludicrous propositions and never returning to respond?

I was going to lock it but people seemed to be enjoying themselves. (Meh)

bnt

cjbh wrote: »

How do you explain the Knock apparitions?

Why should I explain the Knock apparitions? I'm not the one making claims of anything. :rolleyes:

Gear9992

Religion does very bad things to the brain, this just proves it!

Urizen

Probably they just wanted the attention. Fame, moolah and so forth

Joe1919

The Knock apperitions came after a 'devotional revolution' that took place from 1850 onwards.
http://www.novelguide.com/a/discover/eich_01/eich_01_00102.html

Papad

And on a more serious note: the Knock apparitions had to do with how the human brain constructs models i.e. with limited information the brain fills in the gaps. And if your brain has a religious influence, then the gaps will be filled accordingly. This is true for the sightings all over the world.
For example, a bright light through the trees on a windy day is suddenly reconstructed by a religious person's brain as Our Lady.

TheManWho

Papad wrote: »

And on a more serious note: the Knock apparitions had to do with how the human brain constructs models i.e. with limited information the brain fills in the gaps. And if your brain has a religious influence, then the gaps will be filled accordingly. This is true for the sightings all over the world.
For example, a bright light through the trees on a windy day is suddenly reconstructed by a religious person's brain as Our Lady.

For one person maybe, but that doesn't explain mass hallucination.

crotalus667

TheManWho wrote: »

For one person maybe, but that doesn't explain mass hallucination.

I can make you see an illusion , it is a trick played on the mind , anyone else looking at it will see the same illusion and will have the same trick played on their mind :rolleyes:

TheManWho

crotalus667 wrote: »

I can make you see an illusion , it is a trick played on the mind , anyone else looking at it will see the same illusion and will have the same trick played on their mind :rolleyes:

But everyone's mind acts differently, that is the basis for many illusions, like the picture where somepeople see a duck and some see a rabbit. If everyone saw the duck then the illusion wouldn't work, in the same way not everyone can see the virgin mary. Unless they lied to protect their faith, which is just as probable.

Zombrex

TheManWho wrote: »

But everyone's mind acts differently

Not really. Most people's lower brain functions, such as the bits that do pattern matching and will see the face of Jesus in a piece of toast, act the same across the entire species.

What works even better is if someone has already planted an "answer" in your head. A well known experiment of this is a lecturer plays a heavy metal record backwards and asked the audience can they hear the words. A few people put their hands up. He then tells them what the words should be and plays it again. They all put their hands up. Of course there are no words on the record. We instinctively try and pattern match everything. And when we have a target to match it with we do this even better.

All that you need for 50 people to "see" the Virgin Mary in an odd light or a misshaped pattern is for someone to say "Look, the Virgin Mary" out loud. 50 people who would have not necessarily pattern matched it now do because that image is in their head.

Goduznt Xzst

TheManWho wrote: »

For one person maybe, but that doesn't explain mass hallucination.

How many people would you guess, at the Knock "apparitions", where not Catholic?

How do you think the people would of reacted in those times if someone had put up their hand and said "nah, I don't see it, you're lying"

Aside from the psychological reasons that would cause someone to see the apparition when they wouldn't of otherwise, I'm sure people who weren't even there went on to relay what they saw, with typical Irish flare and embellishment.

Take a modern day example, if Jessica Alba was filming a movie in Ireland and myself and a few friends went along to see the set and one of them said they seen her walking around in the buff, even if I hadn't seen it, I'd probably go along with it. Sure why not, I get to tell everyone I seen Jessica Alba naked and people are jealous of me. Humans lie, we probably lie at least a few times every day. All it takes for a lie to become truth is for a person to lie to someone who then believes it.

"There's a sucker born every minute" - P.T. Barnum

Papad

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Take a modern day example, if Jessica Alba was filming a movie in Ireland and myself and a few friends went along to see the set and one of them said they seen her walking around in the buff, even if I hadn't seen it, I'd probably go along with it. Sure why not, I get to tell everyone I seen

Oh man, I can see it now, a Jessica Alba sect. Now that's a 'religion' I would subscribe to. So instead of JC, we would have JA.

bnt

It's funny how the aparitions are always of something related to the religion of those who saw it. What would happen if a bunch of Muslims saw Mary, or Catholics saw the Buddha? "Dang, Jesus, you need to get you some exercise, Bro..." :pac:

dvpower

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How many people would you guess, at the Knock "apparitions", where not Catholic?

It was in Mayo! I'd say they all were.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How do you think the people would of reacted in those times if someone had put up their hand and said "nah, I don't see it, you're lying"

It was only a hundred odd years ago. We've had much more recent 'appiritions'. There's the whole tree stump thing currently on the go without the HSE being called in. I'd imagine that lots of people thought it was a bit nuts.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Aside from the psychological reasons that would cause someone to see the apparition when they wouldn't of otherwise, I'm sure people who weren't even there went on to relay what they saw, with typical Irish flare and embellishment.

Ah. I remember being in the Dandelion when U2 played (at least I think I do.)

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

Take a modern day example, if Jessica Alba was filming a movie in Ireland and myself and a few friends went along to see the set and one of them said they seen her walking around in the buff, even if I hadn't seen it, I'd probably go along with it. Sure why not, I get to tell everyone I seen Jessica Alba naked and people are jealous of me. Humans lie, we probably lie at least a few times every day. All it takes for a lie to become truth is for a person to lie to someone who then believes it.

I was actually there that day. She asked me out on a date, but I was too busy:(.

Pompey Magnus

cjbh wrote: »

For those who don't know, here is a link explaining the story, and some suggested explanations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knock_Shrine

So do you think a projector could be the answer to this phenomenon? Do you think the people of 19th century rural Ireland would be that naive and gullible to be fooled by a prank (the apparition lasted for hours, I believe)?

From the wiki article:

"The Blessed Virgin Mary was described as being very beautiful, standing a few feet above the ground. She wore a white cloak, hanging in full folds and fastened at the neck. The crown appeared brilliant, and of a golden brightness, of a deeper hue, than the striking whiteness of the robe she wore; the upper parts of the crown appeared to be a series of sparkles, or glittering crosses. She was described as "deep in prayer", with her eyes raised to heaven, her hands raised to the shoulders or a little higher, the palms inclined slightly to the shoulders.

St Joseph, also wearing white robes, stood on the Virgin's right hand. His head was bent forward from the shoulders towards the Blessed Virgin in respect.

St John the Evangelist stood to the left of the Blessed Virgin. He was dressed in a long robe and wore a mitre. He was partly turned away from the other figures. He appeared to be preaching and he held open a large book in his left hand."


Okay, so whatever about Mary, how on Earth were these people from rural Mayo able to make a positive identification of Joseph and John the Evangelist?

dvpower

Charco wrote: »

From the wiki article:
Okay, so whatever about Mary, how on Earth were these people from rural Mayo able to make a positive identification of Joseph and John the Evangelist?

Name tags?

Shacklebolt

I hate Knock. I hate every last centimeter of that tacky, tasteless town uninhabited by anybody other than tourists and priests. I hate the fact that for years it wasn't by-passed and held up traffic for hours. I hate the amount of idiotic pilgrims it brings into east Mayo. I hate everything about the place and if there I had a choice of wiping any town in Ireland off the map it would be Knock.

toiletduck

I don't see how any Catholic could enjoy Knock. I echo some of what the above poster said. It's a horrible, tack-ridden town. I mean a statue of the virgin Mary holding up a menu in the window of a restaurant for example... You'd think that kinda kinda cheapening of the pilgrims faith would turn some people off it?

I haven't been to other pilgrimage sites (loudres), would I right in suspecting it's much of the same?

5uspect

Shacklebolt wrote:

I hate everything about the place and if there I had a choice of wiping any town in Ireland off the map it

Maybe those NATO runways up the road will make your wish come true when WWIII starts.

toiletduck wrote:

I haven't been to other pilgrimage sites (loudres), would I right in suspecting it's much of the same?

Yep, pretty much. Catholicism is the McDonalds of religions.

Shacklebolt

5uspect wrote: »

Maybe those NATO runways up the road will make your wish come true when WWIII starts.

"Knock" Airport isn't actually in Knock, its further north between Charlestown and Kilkelly very close to where I'm from.

5uspect

Oh I know, I've been there. An averaged sized nuke should do the job. :pac:

robindch

Shacklebolt wrote: »

if there I had a choice of wiping any town in Ireland off the map it would be Knock.

I take it you've not been to Ballybunion.